Church spending disillusion many- where's the governance?
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no, neither of what you state hereOriginally posted by stupidissmart:IMO, from tis story there r possibly 2 conclusions
1) The rich man have to donate his money before he can serve jesus in order to be able to go to heaven. The rich people have problems going to heaven
2) Jesus purposely misled the rich guy into thinking tat he have to donate all his money when in actual fact he don't need to in order to go to heaven
What is the conclusion u r trying to derive here ?
the purpose is to expose what is already inside, the purpose is to show the rich man where he is putting his pirority (wealth or the things of heaven).
btw, in my post, do you sense and pride in the reply he gave Jesus?
when Jesus tell him to obey the commandments given to Moses, the rich man's answer is "I have keep them since I am young", this is an impossible claim, cause no one can really keep all the commandments.Mark 12:29-33
In asking him to give up all his wealth to the poor and follow Him, is this, you said you had being obeying the commandments, now proof your claims, in doing so expose his (the rich man) weakness to himself (the rich man).
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."
32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
Do you need to do all these to go into heaven? only if you do not want Jesus and you insisted on being able to do all of them (the commandments) perfectly yourself. -
Why people drive Merc or BMW or Evo or Wrx? One reason could be they love that car. It may not be they are trying to prove something.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Why businessmen choose to drive Merz? they want people to know they are successful in making money. Why do some choose BMW? they want people to know they have taste and can afford it. why do pastors choose exotic cars? why not toyota? It is not the question of right or wrong for a pastor to drive exotic cars, the question is, what are they trying to prove??
How many pastors in singapore write books? how many book writers in singapore can afford exotic cars? How much time do pastors have in giving external talks to get enough money for exotic cars, on top of their full time duty in the church? The only legitimate reason for any church pastors to drive exotic cars is that they came from very rich families and those are their families cars.
One thing is certain, driving exotic cars will not help them in evangelising!
Actually are pastors very busy in church? I don't think pastors work 8-5 every weekday on top of weekends. Furthermore it is not uncommon for pastors to travel overseas and I'm sure the church allows it (as long as it is for Christ). -
context, my friend, context...Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:if you are trying to take potshots at catholic priests, might i suggest you desist.
SIS:
How do we know the priest is not slave to the money ? If he is not slave to money then he should tilth away the money freely
Brey's reply to SIS:
and how do you know they do not???
personally, this is how I see his reply (Brey can correct me if I am wrong)
and how do you(SIS) know they(priest/pastor) do not (tithe away the money freely)?
cheers -
maybe can leh .. just like those slimming advertisement before and after shots.Originally posted by sgdiehard:One thing is certain, driving exotic cars will not help them in evangelising!
before that drive toyota .. after that drive beemer.
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how about,Originally posted by Icemoon:maybe can leh .. just like those slimming advertisement before and after shots.
before that drive toyota .. after that drive beemer.
before : a beemer
after : the same beemer
?
by the way, what is consider an exotic car? (based on who's standard is this being measured?) -
thanks vince... you hit the nail on the head!Originally posted by vince69:context, my friend, context...
SIS:
How do we know the priest is not slave to the money ? If he is not slave to money then he should tilth away the money freely
Brey's reply to SIS:
and how do you know they do not???
personally, this is how I see his reply (Brey can correct me if I am wrong)
and how do you(SIS) know they(priest/pastor) do not (tithe away the money freely)?
cheers
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basically, i think in the context of this, an exotic car is anything the likes of a BMW, merc, lexus etc... don't ask me why...Originally posted by vince69:how about,
before : a beemer
after : the same beemer
?
by the way, what is consider an exotic car? (based on who's standard is this being measured?) -
Do pastors usually earn a salary, or various allowances are given by board members, such as car allowance, housing allowance etc?Originally posted by vince69:how about,
before : a beemer
after : the same beemer
?
by the way, what is consider an exotic car? (based on who's standard is this being measured?)
Plus, what are the other job descriptions besides preaching and handling the operation of the church? -
you are most welcome,Originally posted by breytonhartge:thanks vince... you hit the nail on the head! 
can you do me a favor? since no one reply me, can you give me a definition/example of exotic cars?
Thanks -
locally?Originally posted by laurence82:Do pastors usually earn a salary, or various allowances are given by board members, such as car allowance, housing allowance etc?
most will be either salary or allowance (which ever they termed it), and of course, annual leaves and off days (since they normally work of Sunday) as well.
not sure about the rest of the allowances.. -
in the sg context .. ferraris, lambos etc.Originally posted by vince69:you are most welcome,
can you do me a favor? since no one reply me, can you give me a definition/example of exotic cars?
Thanks
BMWs not counted. -
Mai siao siao .. maybe the interior zhng one .. ICE .. nitrous .. supercharger .. suspension etc.Originally posted by vince69:how about,
before : a beemer
after : the same beemer
?
by the way, what is consider an exotic car? (based on who's standard is this being measured?)
by the standards in your industry, ie. against other pastors. -
no, neither of what you state here
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
the purpose is to expose what is already inside, the purpose is to show the rich man where he is putting his pirority (wealth or the things of heaven).
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"
28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
The reply jesus gave to the man is still
If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
IF the message is true, then the rich have to donate the money before following jesus. If it is false, then jesus had lied and misled the rich guy. He can just obtain salvation by following him without donating money. The question tat guy ask is "wat good things must I do to receive eternal life". I do not sense pride etc but rather a humble person asking for guidance
Furthermore
'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself
These are the words told from jesus telling the rich guy wat commandments he need to keep. And I do not think it is wrong or unbelievable for the rich guy to say tat he had kept them. Did u break any of these commandments yourself ? I think most people fulfil all these commandments. Wat hidden words do u wanna put into such a simple statement ?Do you need to do all these to go into heaven? only if you do not want Jesus and you insisted on being able to do all of them (the commandments) perfectly yourself.
If tat is the case, then jesus could have just told him to follow him, instead of asking him to donate all the money before following him
Lastly, the catholic believe the statement is indeed implying a life of poverty, a life without material possession as a means of following god. I don't think u can say tat i interprete the above wrongly -
Unfortunately each church are independent organisation. Therefore couldn't control. The only control comes from the members or board people themselves.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"
28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
The reply jesus gave to the man is still
If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
key note: If you want to be perfect
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
IF the message is true, then the rich have to donate the money before following jesus. If it is false, then jesus had lied and misled the rich guy. He can just obtain salvation by following him without donating money. The question tat guy ask is "wat good things must I do to receive eternal life". I do not sense pride etc but rather a humble person asking for guidance Rolling Eyes
the question may not sound pride, but the reponse he gave after that when Jesus mentioned about obeying the law? make it this way, even the pharisee/priests don't dare to make this claim, on being able to obey ALL of the commandments
Furthermore
'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself
These are the words told from jesus telling the rich guy wat commandments he need to keep. And I do not think it is wrong or unbelievable for the rich guy to say tat he had kept them. Did u break any of these commandments yourself ?
yes, I am not perfect
Rolling Eyes I think most people fulfil all these commandments. Wat hidden words do u wanna put into such a simple statement ?
the rich man's claim is not keep most, his is able to keep ALL
quoteo you need to do all these to go into heaven? only if you do not want Jesus and you insisted on being able to do all of them (the commandments) perfectly yourself.
If tat is the case, then jesus could have just told him to follow him, instead of asking him to donate all the money before following him Rolling Eyes
that won't have expose his love for his money, does it?
Lastly, the catholic believe the statement is indeed implying a life of poverty, a life without material possession as a means of following god. I don't think u can say tat i interprete the above wrongly Rolling Eyes
I am not a catholic, I will leave it to them to reply you on this. -
If you want to be perfect
Note the last part of the statement.
sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
Look at the keyword "then". Follow jesus after u have sell away all your possessions
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
Surely he had said tat giving away all your riches is a way of getting eternal life and getting rewards in heaven. And pastors keep the money much like a rich man. Is tat practicing wat they preach literally ?the question may not sound pride, but the reponse he gave after that when Jesus mentioned about obeying the law? make it this way, even the pharisee/priests don't dare to make this claim, on being able to obey ALL of the commandments
yes, I am not perfect
Com'on, he ask specifically wat actions he need to follow, and the reply jesus made is not un-achievable. A normal person probably do not murder, steal, commit adultery, give false testimonial, honor their parents and love their neighbour. He didn't mention anything about god in tis statement. The things he quote is achievable. furthermore tis guy is proabbly a jew and normal religion abidding jew followed these commandments. When he reply he did all these, then tat is it. It is not about being perfect. Jesus never ask tat guy to be perfect. Basically he just ask him not to be a criminal tat do like their parents and neighbours. R u a criminal tat hate your neighbour and parents ? If u r not, then u have followed wat jesus has specified.the rich man's claim is not keep most, his is able to keep ALL
He say keep all the things jesus had mentioned Do u know how to read ?that won't have expose his love for his money, does it?
according to u, the love of money is never a problem for salvationI am not a catholic, I will leave it to them to reply you on this.
Early christians founders also believe in tis statement. R u better than them ? -
Biblically explained and literally.Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Jesus went straight to the issue of the heart.
It's not the money that counts, it's the love of money over the love towards God that Jesus had confronted.
The crux is :: 21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
I lean onto the explaination vince posted earlier.
Jesus knows very well what the young man holds close to this heart.
This young man have physical possession, but empty at heart. He(young man) knows very well that he have not been set free and obtain salvation, he knows that he can't part his worldly possessions for the kingdom of God as well.
That's why Jesus spoke at the core of the problem.
Following Jesus is where the treasures are.
_
The contrast is Zacchaeus in Luke 19:1-10
The heart of Zacchaeus is willing to forsake his wealth for Jesus.
Jesus didn't have to say a thing like he said to the young man.
May i just say this?
When one recognises Jesus is the Savior, they will give anything in exchange for the Old Rugged Cross.
Paul said it best :
I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.
I can do everything through Him who gives me strength.
- Philippians 4:12-13
I want to learn that secret....and I want to be found in Him
- Philippians 3:9
Zacchaeus learnt that secret.
The young man didnt. -
It's not the money that counts, it's the love of money over the love towards God that Jesus had confronted.
Reading the passage, u will find tat the problem lies with being rich. Jesus never say tat one who love money is harder to go to heaven than putting a camel through the eye of a needle. He say RICH man is hard to go to heaven. Furthermore he say
sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven
If it is just lust for money, then he do not have to say tat he will have treasure in heaven. It still in a way encourage a lust for money
Later he also said
29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
It is again asking people to donate all their money and they get eternal life as well as 100 times more treasure in future. It doesn't mention anything about lust for money thoughout the whoel passage but rather just money. And the incentive he give caters to people with lust for money, something which u all said he disencourage I don't see why it is read in such a way tat the original intentions were lost -
The ten commandments are given and required to keep ALL, if by being perfect in keeping the law, it would have means keeping ALL of them, there is no such thing as pick and choose which one to obey.
when the rich man asked which ones, its already an error.
even if on the few mentioned (worded), its still impossible to obey completely. have you been angry with anyone before? curse/swear at anyone before? show any disrepect to your parents before? ...etc
about treasure in heaven
"Matthew 6:21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
where is your treasure?
Is your heart set on the worldy things? or the things of Heaven?
cheers -
Rich man refers to Men who loves Power or Wealth.
Cheers -
The ten commandments are given and required to keep ALL, if by being perfect in keeping the law, it would have means keeping ALL of them, there is no such thing as pick and choose which one to obey.
Then u r suggesting jesus is lying to misled the rich guy because he is the one tat left out the commandments The rich men just innocently ask which ones then jesus could have just tell him all, but he rather just give him a list instead.have you been angry with anyone before? curse/swear at anyone before? show any disrepect to your parents before?
Well I am angry with other before, but I am also sometimes angry with myself. I curse others but I also curse myself sometimes for mistakes I made. I honor my parents and treat them with respect.Rich man refers to Men who loves Power or Wealth
according to dictionary.com
rich: Possessing great material wealth
It does not say people who loves power or weath. If u wanna interprete as anything u want, might as well say tat "rich" means must be a japanese with short hair and long legs who got some money and have hairy armpits etc.. Then u can write your own bible and translate watever words into watever u like -
Possession.Originally posted by stupidissmart:according to dictionary.com
rich: Possessing great material wealth
It does not say people who loves power or weath. If u wanna interprete as anything u want, might as well say tat "rich" means must be a japanese with short hair and long legs who got some money and have hairy armpits etc.. Then u can write your own bible and translate watever words into watever u like
There.... -
correct, being rich does not means 'slave' to money, but there are some who are.Originally posted by stupidissmart:according to dictionary.com
rich: Possessing great material wealth
It does not say people who loves power or weath. If u wanna interprete as anything u want, might as well say tat "rich" means must be a japanese with short hair and long legs who got some money and have hairy armpits etc.. Then u can write your own bible and translate watever words into watever u like
and in this case, this rich man in the story is obviously had more weightage on his wealth than heaven.
oh.. btw, being poor, does not means not 'slave' to money either.
whether or one is 'slave' to money is more dependent on one's attitude towards money, not how much he/she have. -
correct, being rich does not means 'slave' to money, but there are some who are.
So wat r u suggesting ? Jesus ask him to donate all his fortune before following him and he did not. Wat is the difference of tis guy to the rich pastors who live a life of extravangance, a life beyond the reach of normal singaporean.
and in this case, this rich man in the story is obviously had more weightage on his wealth than heaven.
Furthermore, jesus is the one tat preach about rich people. He never mention anything about "slave to money" etc. U r the one tat say tis. Where in the passage does he mention anything about "slave to money" than rather, money. -
A life who acknowledges God possesses and have the right to all.
No difference.