Church spending disillusion many- where's the governance?
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At the Church AGM, I was told that members keep quiet and dare not quesiton about church spending, salaries, etc or they will be marked. Apparently even board members who questioned about extravagant car purchases, overseas trips or even accounting irregularties got kicked out the very next fiscal year.
Undeniably, I saw exotic cars that seems inappropriate for a pastor. But I am upset many matured members must accord and relent much faith (or fate) to God about the church leadership despite disapproving of this abuse - somethin must be done to bring back the confidence in the church, to remind people that God is watching and disapprove of such poor stewardship.
Question: Is there any corporate goverance for churches? or an independent audit by an external party to check on reasonableness of their spending and to reassure members of good practices? ( other than the statutory audits by accounting firms.)
Please refrain from flamming or giving names here, I am only seeking sensible opinions, and if needed, we can put up a petition to bring this to the government's attention.
If you are free, please do not give mindless model answers here. eg
- submit to authorities
- trust in the leadership that God has ordained,
- give with a cheerful heart
- tithes belong to god anyway.
- nobody is perfect
- they will get their share one day. -
Originally posted by sporty123:
Hmmm... Interesting notion here, beside the manditory audits (on the financial accounts of the church) that is required by the govenment, I do not know of any other statutory requirments on the church.
At the Church AGM, I was told that members keep quiet and dare not quesiton about church spending, salaries, etc or they will be marked. Apparently even board members who questioned about extravagant car purchases, overseas trips or even accounting irregularties got kicked out the very next fiscal year.
Undeniably, I saw exotic cars that seems inappropriate for a pastor. But I am upset many matured members must accord and relent much faith (or fate) to God about the church leadership despite disapproving of this abuse - somethin must be done to bring back the confidence in the church, to remind people that God is watching and disapprove of such poor stewardship.
[b]Question: Is there any corporate goverance for churches? or an independent audit by an external party to check on reasonableness of their spending and to reassure members of good practices? ( other than the statutory audits by accounting firms.)
Please refrain from flamming or giving names here, I am only seeking sensible opinions, and if needed, we can put up a petition to bring this to the government's attention.
If you are free, please do not give mindless model answers here. eg
- submit to authorities
- trust in the leadership that God has ordained,
- give with a cheerful heart
- tithes belong to god anyway.
- nobody is perfect
- they will get their share one day.[/b]
one question I would like to ask is, what is wrong with pastor driving exotic cars? or living in landed properity?
cause these pastors may also have other source of income (example: book sales, external talks ...etc) that is enough to support their lifestyle and if their income permits it, why not? -
Question: Is frugality ever advocated by the bible?
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I thought jesus used to say tat it is difficult for the rich to go to heaven similar to putting a camel through the eye of a needle
Jesus even ask the rich guy to donate all his money before serving him. -
actually the word used was its "more difficult" not "similar", the context for asking the rick guy to sell away all he had and give all to the poor, is to expose to him one thing, his love for his money, its not his money that is the problem, its being slaved to it that is the problem.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I thought jesus used to say tat it is difficult for the rich to go to heaven similar to putting a camel through the eye of a needle Jesus even ask the rich guy to donate all his money before serving him.
context:
verse Matthew 19:16-30 (or Mark 10:17-30, Luke 18:18-30)
Rich man to Jesus: How to enter into heaven
Jesus: obey the commandments
Rich man: I had obeyed all of them since young (which by itself is an impossible claim, cause no one can really do this)
Jesus:give away all your wealth and follow me.
*Rich man walk away.... (he had made his choice)23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." -
is to expose to him one thing, his love for his money, its not his money that is the problem, its being slaved to it that is the problem.
How do we know the priest is not slave to the money ? If he is not slave to money then he should tilth away the money freely -
And frugality?
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I wanna note few thingsOriginally posted by sporty123:At the Church AGM, I was told that members keep quiet and dare not quesiton about church spending, salaries, etc or they will be marked. Apparently even board members who questioned about extravagant car purchases, overseas trips or even accounting irregularties got kicked out the very next fiscal year.
Undeniably, I saw exotic cars that seems inappropriate for a pastor. But I am upset many matured members must accord and relent much faith (or fate) to God about the church leadership despite disapproving of this abuse - somethin must be done to bring back the confidence in the church, to remind people that God is watching and disapprove of such poor stewardship.
Question: Is there any corporate goverance for churches? or an independent audit by an external party to check on reasonableness of their spending and to reassure members of good practices? ( other than the statutory audits by accounting firms.)
Please refrain from flamming or giving names here, I am only seeking sensible opinions, and if needed, we can put up a petition to bring this to the government's attention.
If you are free, please do not give mindless model answers here. eg
- submit to authorities
- trust in the leadership that God has ordained,
- give with a cheerful heart
- tithes belong to god anyway.
- nobody is perfect
- they will get their share one day.
Corporate governance usually dont apply to churches coz they are not corporations, so the ideal word is just governance I guess.
If you want to look at a good example of governance, the Roman Catholic Church is a good case study, where the hierarchy and bureaucracy checks the lower rungs for misappropriation of funds and breach of trust, like the case of Father Joachim Kang.
But here is the catch. What you described arent readily a criminal act akin to fraudulent accounting or misappropriation of funds, something that third parties like auditing firms or police can help in. Its a question of moral value, whether extravagance is allowed in churches.
Worse, in stand-alone churches and denominations without much of a system in place, the decision still lies with board and church members. Who else to say what is right and wrong, if the abovementioned people do not question these spendings in the first instance? Afterall, most often than not, the monies come from these people, not the pastors. -
priest? do you means pastor?Originally posted by stupidissmart:How do we know the priest is not slave to the money ? If he is not slave to money then he should tilth away the money freely
On whether he is or is not slave to the money, I won't know, neither do you.
since neither of us know, how do we comment?
On whether the pastor tithe/ don't tithe/ tithe alot/ tithe little, errr... I also don't know. so since this is another, we don't know, how to guage?
btw, Pastor don't announce how much they tithe to everybody (I don't know of anyone that goes around telling people how much they tithe also)
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Actually, happened in some independant church (don't want to name them), in which the concil members calling for an EGM which resulted in the Senior Pastor resigning from his post.Originally posted by laurence82:I wanna note few things
Corporate governance usually dont apply to churches coz they are not corporations, so the ideal word is just governance I guess.
If you want to look at a good example of governance, the Roman Catholic Church is a good case study, where the hierarchy and bureaucracy checks the lower rungs for misappropriation of funds and breach of trust, like the case of Father Joachim Kang.
But here is the catch. What you described arent readily a criminal act akin to fraudulent accounting or misappropriation of funds, something that third parties like auditing firms or police can help in. Its a question of moral value, whether extravagance is allowed in churches.
Worse, in stand-alone churches and denominations without much of a system in place, the decision still lies with board and church members. Who else to say what is right and wrong, if the abovementioned people do not question these spendings in the first instance? Afterall, most often than not, the monies come from these people, not the pastors.
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Yeap, collective effort by the members can do most of the jobOriginally posted by vince69:Actually, happened in some independant church (don't want to name them), in which the concil members calling for an EGM which resulted in the Senior Pastor resigning from his post. -
and how do you know they do not???Originally posted by stupidissmart:How do we know the priest is not slave to the money ? If he is not slave to money then he should tilth away the money freely -
lots of examples in the book of proverbsOriginally posted by laurence82:Question: Is frugality ever advocated by the bible? -
if you are trying to take potshots at catholic priests, might i suggest you desist.Originally posted by breytonhartge:and how do you know they do not??? -
I think u r right....Originally posted by stupidissmart:I thought jesus used to say tat it is difficult for the rich to go to heaven similar to putting a camel through the eye of a needle Jesus even ask the rich guy to donate all his money before serving him. 
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Past not of your judgement upon others , you do not see the splinter because you have a plank in your own eye.
Again , your own path is yours to walk. -
please read the reply carefully. or have you failed your english....Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:if you are trying to take potshots at catholic priests, might i suggest you desist. 
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actually the word used was its "more difficult" not "similar", the context for asking the rick guy to sell away all he had and give all to the poor, is to expose to him one thing, his love for his money, its not his money that is the problem, its being slaved to it that is the problem.
IMO, from tis story there r possibly 2 conclusions
1) The rich man have to donate his money before he can serve jesus in order to be able to go to heaven. The rich people have problems going to heaven
2) Jesus purposely misled the rich guy into thinking tat he have to donate all his money when in actual fact he don't need to in order to go to heaven
What is the conclusion u r trying to derive here ? -
BTW, my view is not unique. Catholic also find tat phrase to tell people tat pastor/priest have to embrace a life of poverty
http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu20.htm
Yes, there are two Bible passages that refer to embracing a life of poverty. The first is found in the Gospel of Luke where Jesus teaches that those who wish to follow Him should dispose of their personal property. The second is found in the Acts of the Apostles where it is revealed that the early Christians did not claim private ownership of any possessions, but rather, shared everything in common.
"A certain ruler asked him, 'Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?' Jesus said to him, 'Why doyou call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: 'You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother.' He replied, 'I have kept all these since my youth.' When Jesus heard this, he said to him, 'There is still one thing lacking. Sell all that you own and distribute the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me. Jesus looked at him and said, 'How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!'" [Lk. 18:18-23]
"Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common. With great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need." [Acts 4:32-5] -
Originally posted by sporty123:
Churches like all religious orgnisations come under charity act. Looking at the NKF saga and you know how much the law can do in the governance of such organisation, I am not implying any abuse of power and public funds in any churches or religious organisations, as in NKF.
At the Church AGM, I was told that members keep quiet and dare not quesiton about church spending, salaries, etc or they will be marked. Apparently even board members who questioned about extravagant car purchases, overseas trips or even accounting irregularties got kicked out the very next fiscal year.
Undeniably, I saw exotic cars that seems inappropriate for a pastor. But I am upset many matured members must accord and relent much faith (or fate) to God about the church leadership despite disapproving of this abuse - somethin must be done to bring back the confidence in the church, to remind people that God is watching and disapprove of such poor stewardship.
[b]Question: Is there any corporate goverance for churches? or an independent audit by an external party to check on reasonableness of their spending and to reassure members of good practices? ( other than the statutory audits by accounting firms.)
Please refrain from flamming or giving names here, I am only seeking sensible opinions, and if needed, we can put up a petition to bring this to the government's attention.
If you are free, please do not give mindless model answers here. eg
- submit to authorities
- trust in the leadership that God has ordained,
- give with a cheerful heart
- tithes belong to god anyway.
- nobody is perfect
- they will get their share one day.[/b]
The responsibilities to the right use of the money in church, through appropriate approval processes, audit and whatever, remain that of the members of the church. Members who want to see changes should get themselves voted into the leadership. Members who have no confidence in the leadership should vote them out, or simply leave. -
Challenge them are their actions scriptural?Originally posted by sporty123:At the Church AGM, I was told that members keep quiet and dare not quesiton about church spending, salaries, etc or they will be marked. Apparently even board members who questioned about extravagant car purchases, overseas trips or even accounting irregularties got kicked out the very next fiscal year. -
you have failed your english.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:if you are trying to take potshots at catholic priests, might i suggest you desist. -
Why businessmen choose to drive Merz? they want people to know they are successful in making money. Why do some choose BMW? they want people to know they have taste and can afford it. why do pastors choose exotic cars? why not toyota? It is not the question of right or wrong for a pastor to drive exotic cars, the question is, what are they trying to prove??Originally posted by vince69:Hmmm... Interesting notion here, beside the manditory audits (on the financial accounts of the church) that is required by the govenment, I do not know of any other statutory requirments on the church.
one question I would like to ask is, what is wrong with pastor driving exotic cars? or living in landed properity?
cause these pastors may also have other source of income (example: book sales, external talks ...etc) that is enough to support their lifestyle and if their income permits it, why not?
How many pastors in singapore write books? how many book writers in singapore can afford exotic cars? How much time do pastors have in giving external talks to get enough money for exotic cars, on top of their full time duty in the church? The only legitimate reason for any church pastors to drive exotic cars is that they came from very rich families and those are their families cars.
One thing is certain, driving exotic cars will not help them in evangelising! -
and how many pastor drives exotic cars? (by definition, what is an exotic car? Farrari? BMW 7Series? BMW 3Series? Lexus? )Originally posted by sgdiehard:Why businessmen choose to drive Merz? they want people to know they are successful in making money. Why do some choose BMW? they want people to know they have taste and can afford it. why do pastors choose exotic cars? why not toyota? It is not the question of right or wrong for a pastor to drive exotic cars, the question is, what are they trying to prove??
How many pastors in singapore write books? how many book writers in singapore can afford exotic cars? How much time do pastors have in giving external talks to get enough money for exotic cars, on top of their full time duty in the church? The only legitimate reason for any church pastors to drive exotic cars is that they came from very rich families and those are their families cars.
One thing is certain, driving exotic cars will not help them in evangelising! -
if you guys don't care enough of your church to ask, and don't dare enough to ask...