A sermon to share: Sinners in the hands of an angry God

• stupidissmart

  11 Jul 06, 13:14

  Can God choose to be generous to those who choose to put their trust on Him instead of their own works? Since its is done out of His own abundance, who can say He cannot?
  
  Let me ask you a question, will you give your money to everyone you see on the road? or only to those you want to give?

  Aaaaa... then u have shown to everyone tat god send people to hell simply because they do not believe him, and not because they sin. He just give salvation to people he like and send people to hell to people who he did not like. It is much like punsihing whoever u like for no reason and rhyme instead of acting like judges and give a fair verdict to people for their actions. The whole things about hell is for sinner is just a cover up.
• vince69

  11 Jul 06, 13:32

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  Aaaaa... then u have shown to everyone tat god send people to hell simply because they do not believe him, and not because they sin. He just give salvation to people he like and send people to hell to people who he did not like. It is much like punsihing whoever u like for no reason and rhyme instead of acting like judges and give a fair verdict to people for their actions. The whole things about hell is for sinner is just a cover up.

  Actually its more like, God allows those that meets His requirement on His term to enter into heaven. And as for the rest who refused, He will just let them continue on their journey to their ultimate destination that they rightly deserved.
  
  you have a nice day, me have to go back to work.
• stupidissmart

  11 Jul 06, 13:43

  Actually its more like, God allows those that meets His requirement on His term to enter into heaven. And as for the rest who refused, He will just let them continue on their journey to their ultimate destination that they rightly deserved.
  
  you have a nice day, me have to go back to work.

  U r just rephrasing the words for the same idea. His requirement is, God must like him, and he only like christians. And tat is the only real requirement. For the "continue on journey", it is sending them to hell. He purposely made hell to keep the devil and other opposition who he did not like. In the end the conclusion is still
  
  God send people to hell not because they sin, but really because he wilfully dislike them.
• stupidissmart

  11 Jul 06, 13:49

  yes, if man insisted on being judged according to what they do, then man have to meet the standard set by God for doing them right. Its like going taking an exam, a student must answer the questions based on the standard set by the eaxmination board.

  BTW, god did not even give an "exam paper" to non-christians and giv them an F immediately. And i do not see any argument tat show god is fair here.
• laoda99

  11 Jul 06, 13:51

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  quote:
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  I agree with u lots of loopholes in man-made things. Which is why we need God, and not man-made things.
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  I never say there r lot of loopholes in man made things. Please read back again
  
  Hmmm....I have read back again and u were telling abt holes in the world legislative system....are there no holes in the system?
  
  quote:
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  I tend to think that if the person who murdered someone is truely repentant, he should be forgiven even in the last min. Even though he might be hanged on earth for his crimes he should still be able to go paradise.
  
  If the person who dies is a good boy, then he should be able to go paradise too.
  
  This is how God treats each and every one of us. He would save us even in the last min. Ur blood for blood theory is appealing to humans but not gracious
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  Then u don't believe in justice and u rather let a murderer go than a non-believer. The murderer kill a non-believer, and he goes to heaven while the non-believer goes to hell. Tat just sounds real fair
  
  Well....tat depends on wat u deem as fair....if u are a murderer and is truely repentent in the end....will u find it "fair" if God forgive u?
  
  quote:
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  Yes you try ur best.....but how best is God's best? If going by your standards, everyone have sinned and all of us would have to suffer in hell, either temporal or eternal.
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  Then u r suggesting everybody to commit as much sins and crimes as possible since in the end everybody get the same treatment. Is tat god best ? Then tat is a god who promote sinning
  
  haiz...you twisting words again? And u did not answer my questions is it fair when somebody miss the boat by just 1 pt (according to your system).....or somebody who has been good committed a grave sin tat makes him accumulate a million pts and send him to hell......is that fair for u then?
  
  Remember....what is acceptable to u.....may not be acceptable to God. And wat is acceptable to God....looks like not acceptable to you. But it's ok. We will see in due course. No pt arguing it anymore.
  

• laoda99

  11 Jul 06, 13:53

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  Aaaaa... then u have shown to everyone tat god send people to hell simply because they do not believe him, and not because they sin. He just give salvation to people he like and send people to hell to people who he did not like. It is much like punsihing whoever u like for no reason and rhyme instead of acting like judges and give a fair verdict to people for their actions. The whole things about hell is for sinner is just a cover up.

  Actually I agree with u in the sense that God is sovereign. If God wants u to go paradise, who are u to argue with him? If God wants to send u to hell for ur misdeeds, who are u to argue with him? U can keep arguing here abt cover ups/unfairness, but that won't help u in ur relationship with God.
  
  We will know in due course. Really no point arguing with u now.
• stupidissmart

  11 Jul 06, 14:31

  Hmmm....I have read back again and u were telling abt holes in the world legislative system....are there no holes in the system?

  I am not being god, I am just using the possibility of having god power but use in a Man made system called law, a being which some feel to be too stupid to be acceptable. If u can find a loophole for tis system u have found a loophole in the world legislative system. In fact some taoist use tis idea as a way to discourage people from committing sins. In the divine sense, after u pay the price for your sin by being in hell in seconds, u can go to heaven or something if u like.
  
  I have say holes, but I am challenging u to find loopholes for the legislative system. However u come about and say I say there r many loop holes which I have never meant for it. Please hightlight to me where on earth do u read the part where I claim there r many loopholes in the human system.
  
  R there no holes in the system ? tat is the challenge to u. Find me the fault in the system because I have easily shown tons of loopholes in the christian version of justice
  
  

  Well....tat depends on wat u deem as fair....if u are a murderer and is truely repentent in the end....will u find it "fair" if God forgive u?

  Repentent in the end doesn't correct the wrong u have done. Repentent or not, u have to face the music. Otherwise everyone could commit every sin in the world and just have to be repentent in the end. Tis is again encouraging sin to occur
  
  

  haiz...you twisting words again? And u did not answer my questions is it fair when somebody miss the boat by just 1 pt (according to your system).....or somebody who has been good committed a grave sin tat makes him accumulate a million pts and send him to hell......is that fair for u then?

  I thought i have answered tis question. For mitigation a normally good boy can get a lower punishment, however he still did wrong in murdering someone and he still get punished. Tat is fair because tat person had really sin. If u miss the boat by 1 point, u just got burn by 1 second. Is tat so hard to bear ? According to christainity u got burnt for eternity if u miss something by 1 point. Tat is the terrible and unfair part
  
  

  Remember....what is acceptable to u.....may not be acceptable to God. And wat is acceptable to God....looks like not acceptable to you. But it's ok. We will see in due course. No pt arguing it anymore.

  From wat u have written u just accept anything given to u and u don't ponder whether is it right or wrong, logical or flawed. If one day the church say tat u have to gorge out your eyes or kill yourself to go to heaven, u will probably do it. Who r u to argue with "god". Well, good luck to u
  
  

  Actually I agree with u in the sense that God is sovereign. If God wants u to go paradise, who are u to argue with him? If God wants to send u to hell for ur misdeeds, who are u to argue with him? U can keep arguing here abt cover ups/unfairness, but that won't help u in ur relationship with God.

  Seems the conclusion is again supported by another who felt tat it is not sinners tat go to hell but non-believers. The sinner thing is just a cover up
• vince69

  11 Jul 06, 14:56

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  Seems the conclusion is again supported by another who felt tat it is not sinners tat go to hell but non-believers. The sinner thing is just a cover up

  yes, All sinners are destined to go to hell, period.
  
  hang on, according to the Bible, All have sinned, making all of us destined to hell.
  
  "There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
  
  allow me to paraphase this for you,
  There is no difference (christian or non christian), for all (everyone) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (hence destined to hell), and are (required to be) justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
  He did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus
  
  

  Romans 3:21-26 (for full picture, read Romans 3)
  21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

• stupidissmart

  11 Jul 06, 15:54

  The reply above is saying everyone goes to hell because the standard is unachievable and whoever goes to heaven has nothing to do with sinning anymore but rather with whether god like u or not. It still meant the same thing.
• laoda99

  11 Jul 06, 16:01

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  The reply above is saying everyone goes to hell because the standard is unachievable and whoever goes to heaven has nothing to do with sinning anymore but rather with whether god like u or not. It still meant the same thing.

  Part in red.....should change to whether God wills it or not......
  
  good...can see u are progressing
• stupidissmart

  11 Jul 06, 16:05

  If u can tell me the difference between "like it or not" and "wills it or not" and convince me the change is significant and necessary, then i may consider the change. BTW, tis conclusion is wat I have stated since page 5 ? The whole argument is always on the fact tat sinning is not a criteria isn't it ?
• klydeer

  11 Jul 06, 16:12

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  The purpose of my argument is to show tat the real purpose of hell, from a christian point of view is to throw non-believer in instead of sinners. If u r not christian, then it is not about u.
  
  As stated, it is "divine" judgement where people r punish acording to their sins when they r alive. Since it is "divine" it has to be done by someone "supernatural". If u r a christian/muslim/jew, then an appropriate person is to do tis job is god. Who is the one who judge men in the end of time according to scripture ? If u r some idol worshipper/taoist, then the magistrate of hell do the job. If u r a buddhist, the karma can do the job. The point is to show tat a fair system of judgement is possible and easy. However strangely some being chooses an unfair system to carry out justice and clearly shows tat sinning become an irrelevant criteria

  the purpose of your argument is not valid since you misunderstood Christianity and also refused to talk about your own stand in the system you yourself suggested.
  
  So....who do you think should preside over your suggested system ? Christians do not subsribe to your system - so why talk about them and God ?
  
  Let's talk about you and the point system since according to you - it is "fairer and easier" ? So who ?
  
  
• laoda99

  11 Jul 06, 16:12

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  If u can tell me the difference between "like it or not" and "wills it or not" and convince me the change is significant and necessary, then i may consider the change. BTW, tis conclusion is wat I have stated since page 5 ? The whole argument is always on the fact tat sinning is not a criteria isn't it ?

  Mr. SIS,
  
  I dun have to convince u. If u think "like it or not" is correct, so be it lor.
  
  If u think sinning is not a criteria, so be it lor. U can sin as much as u like, it is ur problem also.
  
  Afterall, all of us accountable to God ourselves. So just do what u want.
• Icemoon

  11 Jul 06, 16:19

  what do we have here?
  
  three heroes battle lu bu?
• stupidissmart

  11 Jul 06, 16:22

  the purpose of your argument is not valid since you misunderstood Christianity and also refused to talk about your own stand in the system you yourself suggested.

  Wat do u mean by my stand ? I am a man of science and my impression of wat happened after death is nothing. No judgement no nothing. The point system is just to illustrate tat a fair way of judging by sinning is present yet not adopted. Since it is talking abotu christianity, obviously god is involved in the scenario. Why don't u read back from page 5 onwards and see how the whole thing was linked.
  
  However I do not felt I have misunderstood christainity. Why don't u clarify.
  
  

  If u think sinning is not a criteria, so be it lor. U can sin as much as u like, it is ur problem also

  I said tat christian saying hell is for sinners is a cover up I think I have repeated tis point for many times yet people still give a wrong conclusion to all the arguments so far
• laoda99

  11 Jul 06, 16:25

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  I said tat christian saying hell is for sinners is a cover up I think I have repeated tis point for many times yet people still give a wrong conclusion to all the arguments so far

  If it is a cover up to u, so be it lor.
  
  I dun think we have wrongly concluded ur arguments. If u urself have decided science is the best explanation and u just disappear after u die, so be it lor.
  
  We are not here to argue with u who is right. It's ok with us if u dun accept what Christians believe.
• vince69

  11 Jul 06, 16:35

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  If u can tell me the difference between "like it or not" and "wills it or not" and convince me the change is significant and necessary, then i may consider the change. BTW, tis conclusion is wat I have stated since page 5 ? The whole argument is always on the fact tat sinning is not a criteria isn't it ?

  depends on your are refering to.
  Sin is a cirteria of going to hell, but not a criteria when it comes to heaven.
• vince69

  11 Jul 06, 16:37

  Originally posted by Icemoon:

  what do we have here?
  
  three heroes battle lu bu?

  4.30pm liao, have to start think about dinner liao.
• stupidissmart

  11 Jul 06, 16:40

  Sin is a cirteria of going to hell, but not a criteria when it comes to heaven.

  If u do not fulfil the criteria to go to heaven, u automatically go to hell. The failure of criteria to go to heaven, is the criteria to go to hell. Thus non-christian go to hell, not sinners
• laoda99

  11 Jul 06, 17:00

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  If u do not fulfil the criteria to go to heaven, u automatically go to hell. The failure of criteria to go to heaven, is the criteria to go to hell. Thus non-christian go to hell, not sinners

  Then so be it lor.
  
  
• breytonhartge

  11 Jul 06, 17:56

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  If u can tell me the difference between "like it or not" and "wills it or not" and convince me the change is significant and necessary, then i may consider the change. BTW, tis conclusion is wat I have stated since page 5 ? The whole argument is always on the fact tat sinning is not a criteria isn't it ?

  like it or not suggests a god who is flippant, wilful, spiteful, uncaring, unstable etc... Yahweh is not like that at all.
  
  "wills it or not" defines a God who is deliberate and considers the outcomes etc and our sorry condition.
  
  Yahweh wills it for all to be saved that is why he provided the solution to the sin problem Yeshua.
  
  
• Icemoon

  11 Jul 06, 22:10

  Originally posted by laoda99:

  I dun think we have wrongly concluded ur arguments. If u urself have decided science is the best explanation and u just disappear after u die, so be it lor.
  
  We are not here to argue with u who is right. It's ok with us if u dun accept what Christians believe.

  maybe satan hardened his heart to stumble the christians.
  
  but his qns spur some christians to do more research and their faith are strengthened.
  
  
  
  hmm .. if you ask me to choose, i rather believe CK is the satan hardened one and sis is the god hardened one.
  
  'cos satan's pattern is to rojak truth, half-truth and lies all in one.
• M©+square

  12 Jul 06, 00:19

  Originally posted by Icemoon:

  maybe satan hardened his heart to stumble the christians.
  
  but his qns spur some christians to do more research and their faith are strengthened.
  
  
  
  hmm .. if you ask me to choose, i rather believe CK is the satan hardened one and sis is the god hardened one.
  
  'cos satan's pattern is to rojak truth, half-truth and lies all in one.

  Satan cannot harden hearts.
• vince69

  12 Jul 06, 00:22

  Originally posted by Icemoon:

  maybe satan hardened his heart to stumble the christians.
  
  but his qns spur some christians to do more research and their faith are strengthened.
  
  
  
  hmm .. if you ask me to choose, i rather believe CK is the satan hardened one and sis is the god hardened one.
  
  'cos satan's pattern is to rojak truth, half-truth and lies all in one.

  Icemoon, don't anyhow throw insults, ok....
  I like rojak
• Icemoon

  12 Jul 06, 00:39

  Originally posted by M©+square:

  Satan cannot harden hearts.

  semantics only.
  
  satan can tempt you to the dark side, so your heart is hardened.