A sermon to share: Sinners in the hands of an angry God
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That's why there is the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.Originally posted by stupidissmart:1. Only perfect people can go to heaven
2. No one is perfect so no one goes to heaven
3. But Christian can go to heaven
4. And christians r not perfect since no man is perfect and only god is perfect
In the end there is a contradiction between 1, 3 and 4.
It is not "perfect" people tat goes to heaven, but merely christians. The idea of "perfect" requirement is actually just for show Christ is perfect doesn't make christians perfect. Otherwise your definition of perfect is faulty 
obiterdicta -
was it not someone who said "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand!"Originally posted by breytonhartge:no point accepting Yeshua with no repentance, because Yahweh will say begone from me your workers of iniquity. Yeshua is not a free pass into Heaven... if the person does not repent, then what is the point of saying he accepts Yeshua? A person's faith must be backed up by his actions.
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John the baptist...Originally posted by Icemoon:was it not someone who said "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand!" -
Perhaps the 'repentence' that was being referred to in the post is the effort required for what Catholics call ongoing conversion, or what you guys call 'sanctification'. This is different from the initial act of repentence and the acceptance of Christ as Lord and Saviour.Originally posted by Icemoon:was it not someone who said "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand!"
obiterdicta -
clicheOriginally posted by Icemoon:was it not someone who said "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand!" -
good point. thanks!Originally posted by ObiterDicta:Perhaps the 'repentence' that was being referred to in the post is the effort required for what Catholics call ongoing conversion, or what you guys call 'sanctification'. This is different from the initial act of repentence and the acceptance of Christ as Lord and Saviour.
obiterdicta -
but +1 for ratings!Originally posted by laurence82:cliche
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double postsOriginally posted by ObiterDicta:Perhaps the 'repentence' that was being referred to in the post is the effort required for what Catholics call ongoing conversion, or what you guys call 'sanctification'. This is different from the initial act of repentence and the acceptance of Christ as Lord and Saviour.
obiterdicta -
Hello there my friend:Originally posted by ObiterDicta:Perhaps the 'repentence' that was being referred to in the post is the effort required for what Catholics call ongoing conversion, or what you guys call 'sanctification'. This is different from the initial act of repentence and the acceptance of Christ as Lord and Saviour.
obiterdicta
1) Conversion has two aspects: a) repentance and b) faith in Christ.
Conversion is the result of regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
Conversion is turining from sin to Christ. At that point when the sinner has touched salvation base [Christ] he is automatically justified and sanctified and glorified positionally. And that's where sanctification [progressive] begins when the sinner touched salvation base through faith.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
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SIN----repentance-->---------------------------->*CHRIST-SALVATION
Repentance is a change of attitude towards sin, God , self and Christ. Repentance is basically not outward acts and behavior. It is manifested through it. You can do repentant acts but have no attitude of repentance.
Mt 3:8 Let your change of heart [repentance] be seen in your works [behavior and acts] {Bible in Basic English}
[Note: italics mine]
When you change your attitude towards sin, you will spontaneously change your behavior to it. When you change your attitude towards God, you will spontaneously change your behavior towards God. When you change your attitude towards self, it will result in not relying in the works of self for salvation. You will accept Christ as Savior.
Repentance to salvation is not being saved through works for repentance is a change of attitude towards sin, God, self, and Christ. Remember Faith aside from many other things is an attitude of the will towards Christ.
at the moment of FAITH in CHRIST
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*------------------------------ progressive santification--------------->glorification
Justified
sanctified
glorified
[positionally]
After salvation do we still have to repent? Yes, absolutely. So long as we are sinners here we need to repent. Repentance is the product of the new nature we recieved at regeneration. [New nature brings along with it new attitudes]
2) 1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and --righteousness and sanctification and redemption
The words above speak of positional truths. Christ is the Christian's sanctification. At that moment [in the twinkiling of an eye] when the sinner [through faith] becomes IN CHRIST, he recieves all that Christ has, namely: His rightouesness, His being separate from evil [sanctification] and His glorification-we are inextricably identified with His resurrection which is the basis of the redemption of our bodies.
Not only His resurrection but His ascention and His sitting in the heavenly places too. we are linked to those truths.
Positionally we are already raised with Christ [never to die again for the sake of sins because Christ our Head will not suffer anymore for sins]:
Col 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
The word "if" there does not imply uncertainty. It is the "if" of consequence. It means SINCE. "SINCE THEN [OR THEREFORE] YOU ARE RAISED WITH CHRIST........."
His ascention guaranttees our future Rapture to heaven. Positionally we [Christians] are already in heaven.
His sitting there in the right hand of the Father guranttees that we [Christians] will be with the Father.
We are inextricably linked to Christ. We do not need to go to purgatory anymore since Christ our Head's sacrifice was enough.
He is our Head, we are His body. If you put us [His body] to purgatory, then you put our Head [who is Christ] there too.
which is unthinkable.
peace -
Gone for the weekend, now I am back...
Repentence ? I can see tis idea present in almost all religion. I can see buddhist teaching teaching repentence and abstain from sins as well. I can surely say tat true christian still sin and surely there is some buddhists who had sin less than true christians. However according to doctrines they these better people still go to hell. In the end, it still meant tat only christians go to heaven and the sinning criteria is still irrelevant. -
how would one be offered a place which the Creator has created, if the one offered smacked His hand as the Creator ?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Gone for the weekend, now I am back...
Repentence ? I can see tis idea present in almost all religion. I can see buddhist teaching teaching repentence and abstain from sins as well. I can surely say tat true christian still sin and surely there is some buddhists who had sin less than true christians. However according to doctrines they these better people still go to hell. In the end, it still meant tat only christians go to heaven and the sinning criteria is still irrelevant.
"Good or bad" - who decide ? Men ? -
how would one be offered a place which the Creator has created, if the one offered smacked His hand as the Creator ?
If a supervisor is good, he will promote the one tat contribute to the company rather than the one he like
"Good or bad" - who decide ? Men ? It should be based on merit of a system instead of just people tat r toady towards the supervisor.
Actually got to ask, wat is wrong with men R u going to say tat men r the stupiest being bla bla bla and therefore should take in any cock and bull story tat is told to them ? -
quick .. we need your help to trash CK leh.Originally posted by stupidissmart:If a supervisor is good, he will promote the one tat contribute to the company rather than the one he like It should be based on merit of a system instead of just people tat r toady towards the supervisor.
Actually got to ask, wat is wrong with men R u going to say tat men r the stupiest being bla bla bla and therefore should take in any cock and bull story tat is told to them ?
edit: should be thrash? -
In the first place - did i say what is "wrong" with men ?Originally posted by stupidissmart:If a supervisor is good, he will promote the one tat contribute to the company rather than the one he like It should be based on merit of a system instead of just people tat r toady towards the supervisor.
Actually got to ask, wat is wrong with men R u going to say tat men r the stupiest being bla bla bla and therefore should take in any cock and bull story tat is told to them ?
No need to turn on your defense mechanism, this is not iraq, just a discussion.
And how in the world do u differentiate between a person who "contributes" and who doesnt ? Merit of system ? How ? Want to enlighten me ? Based on what ? Your laws ? If Man's laws - then which man ?
As you said, need to have merit - well OK - in the name of meritocracy, tell me, who is it that has this "merit" and why should we believe in that person's merit system ?
I am ALL ears. -
In some ways, it is very true......Originally posted by stupidissmart:Gone for the weekend, now I am back...
Repentence ? I can see tis idea present in almost all religion. I can see buddhist teaching teaching repentence and abstain from sins as well. I can surely say tat true christian still sin and surely there is some buddhists who had sin less than true christians. However according to doctrines they these better people still go to hell. In the end, it still meant tat only christians go to heaven and the sinning criteria is still irrelevant. 
You see the light liao! -
Well, the supervisor decides right?Originally posted by stupidissmart:If a supervisor is good, he will promote the one tat contribute to the company rather than the one he like It should be based on merit of a system instead of just people tat r toady towards the supervisor. -
And how in the world do u differentiate between a person who "contributes" and who doesnt ? Merit of system ? How ? Want to enlighten me ? Based on what ? Your laws ? If Man's laws - then which man ?
If u ask me, if the emphasis is sinning, obviously the less u sin, the better a person "contributes". On wat law ? Obviously the gravity of consequences or the amount of damage done to society is an important considerations. Intentions had to be included as well. U can't be blamed for things u cannot control. Generally, the general law made by men is very much a fair gauge. Compared with the christian system, where people r condemn simply because of their belief, and made a sinner because adam (who is not u) ate an apple is absurbIn some ways, it is very true......
The problem is the emphasis is tat hell is not on given to the people who have sinned but on the who believes another
You see the light liao! -
1. Define sin less. If u try not to sin (bio charbor), but then eventually u commit something serious (such as molest), how? U have tried not to sin liao...u still sin less but have u contributed better?
2. If hell is given to the people who have sinned, then everybody will have to go hell becoz all are sinners.
SIS, have u not sinned b4?Originally posted by stupidissmart:quote:
If u ask me, if the emphasis is sinning, obviously the less u sin, the better a person "contributes". On wat law ? Obviously the gravity of consequences or the amount of damage done to society is an important considerations. Intentions had to be included as well. U can't be blamed for things u cannot control. Generally, the general law made by men is very much a fair gauge. Compared with the christian system, where people r condemn simply because of their belief, and made a sinner because adam (who is not u) ate an apple is absurb
quote:
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In some ways, it is very true......
You see the light liao!
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The problem is the emphasis is tat hell is not on given to the people who have sinned but on the who believes another -
Define sin less. If u try not to sin (bio charbor), but then eventually u commit something serious (such as molest), how? U have tried not to sin liao...u still sin less but have u contributed better?
First, to me bio zabo is not a sin because u do not cause problems to society. Second, molest is a sin because u have caused trauma to the girl. Third, the mitigation factors can be considered such as if he is crazy or something but the reason u give is silly and as such I see the mitigation as none.If hell is given to the people who have sinned, then everybody will have to go hell becoz all are sinners
Tat is not right if u view sin doing something wrongly as something of severe consequences and not small minor silly issues which is of no significance -
Define cause problems to society. Those old unkers who go Chinatown bio charbor and follow them....not a problem meh?Originally posted by stupidissmart:quote:
First, to me bio zabo is not a sin because u do not cause problems to society. Second, molest is a sin because u have caused trauma to the girl. Third, the mitigation factors can be considered such as if he is crazy or something but the reason u give is silly and as such I see the mitigation as none.
Tat is not right if u view sin doing something wrongly as something of severe consequences and not small minor silly issues which is of no significance
haha....or let's change the bio zabo part to what u think is a lesser degree of sin.....like dat still how? U contribute less sins but then u commit something that is trauma to pple (such as molest).....so are u still better than others?
Dun understand ur second para....elaborate pls?
What is no significance to u may be significant to others. For example, gossip or slander.
Small sins/big sins, u still sin. Have u not sinned b4?
Dun tell me in the event u go hell, u are going to tell God..."Look, my neighbour sinned more than me. He should be punished, not me..." Is that what ur mitigation going to be? -
wah leow eh .. you all open war on two fronts?
I mean SIS and CK .. -
why Laoda keep editing his post?
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With SIS u got to be precise....Originally posted by vince69:why Laoda keep editing his post? -
Comparable meh ? i thought Mr SIS raised much better points than CK.Originally posted by Icemoon:wah leow eh .. you all open war on two fronts?
I mean SIS and CK .. -
at least SIS is rational.Originally posted by klydeer:Comparable meh ? i thought Mr SIS raised much better points than CK.
so CK is the weaker front!