God commanded the use of icons?
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Christian Symbols....
If the early Christians didn't use them, there might not be a single Christian alive today. Read the Church History before the Bible was compiled.
Statues...
Christian Statues vs pagans'
Christian statues were initiated due to the huge illiterate population, and those who did not understand Latin. This was to make it use for Christians to understand.
Statues in Churches are not used the same way as those in other religions.
It's mainly like a "photographed image" of a person, rather than a representation of the real presence. Hence, Christians do not worship the statues or icons.
However, destroying of such icons will not be allowed as it's as disrespectful as burning a Bible, cuz while Bible reminds us God's words, the icons/statues remind us of Jesus and/or His followers. -
Cuz they believe in Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide (spelling?) . No church authority is necessary. Neither is church guidance. Just their own relationship with God and Holy Spirit will guide them not to go wrong. But founders of cult groups also follow this principle... so....Originally posted by Icemoon:About the part in red, the truth is this - the prots and RCs are both appealing to authority.
RCs - authority of popes and scholars
Prots - authority of the individuals (fill in yourself, you should know the ans
)
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wah leow .. so easy you also got it wrong!Originally posted by Honeybunz:Cuz they believe in Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide (spelling?) . No church authority is necessary. Neither is church guidance. Just their own relationship with God and Holy Spirit will guide them not to go wrong.
It is authority of the Bible lah.
The Prots never say no church authority or guidance is necessary. On the contrary, the co-founding father of Protestantism - John Calvin - was a power hungry mad man .. look at this website - http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm.
Furthermore the Holy Spirit obviously didn't guide Luther to tear up the Epistle of James right? -
If your argument in red is sound, then it follows that Catholics should worship the bread and the wine.Originally posted by Honeybunz:Christian Symbols....
If the early Christians didn't use them, there might not be a single Christian alive today. Read the Church History before the Bible was compiled.
Statues...
Christian Statues vs pagans'
Christian statues were initiated due to the huge illiterate population, and those who did not understand Latin. This was to make it use for Christians to understand.
Statues in Churches are not used the same way as those in other religions.
It's mainly like a "photographed image" of a person, rather than a representation of the real presence. Hence, Christians do not worship the statues or icons.
However, destroying of such icons will not be allowed as it's as disrespectful as burning a Bible, cuz while Bible reminds us God's words, the icons/statues remind us of Jesus and/or His followers.
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Bible - That's what they will claim lah. But who pass down the bible teaching to them? Themselves?Originally posted by Icemoon:wah leow .. so easy you also got it wrong!
It is authority of the Bible lah.
The Prots never say no church authority or guidance is necessary. On the contrary, the co-founding father of Protestantism - John Calvin - was a power hungry mad man .. look at this website - http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm.
Furthermore the Holy Spirit obviously didn't guide Luther to tear up the Epistle of James right?
Ya, Holy Spirit didn't and will not guide Luther that way. But I'm sure he thought otherwise.
About the website... can you summarise it for me into ten words or less?
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So please study the Word of God carefully lah.Originally posted by Honeybunz:Cuz they believe in Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide (spelling?) . No church authority is necessary. Neither is church guidance. Just their own relationship with God and Holy Spirit will guide them not to go wrong. But founders of cult groups also follow this principle... so....
Why did the Protestants agree with the Catholics that Marcion, Nestorus, Sabellius etc. were all heretics? Did they appeal to the Pope's authority? Or was it something else? -
Bread and wine is a totally different thing altogether.Originally posted by Icemoon:If your argument in red is sound, then it follows that Catholics should worship the bread and the wine. -
Har, study the Word of God carefully with the Church or on my own hoping that the "Holy Spirit" can guide me to find some new meaning to God's words?Originally posted by Icemoon:So please study the Word of God carefully lah.
Why did the Protestants agree with the Catholics that Marcion, Nestorus, Sabellius etc. were all heretics? Did they appeal to the Pope's authority? Or was it something else?
Then maybe I will set up my own denomination, so as to have my own followers.
Marcion, Nestorus, Sabellius (eh...your spelling? I had a hard time looking up what they are), they existed long before the Protestantism was founded.
And those are not the cults that I was talking about. I was referring to those that were founded by exProts, who each claimed to be inspired by God in some ways to have better understanding of God's teaching and thus set up their groups. -
Why is there a need to pass down teaching? This analogy of the Nuremberg Funnel has been severely criticised in the Learning Sciences and Pedagogy disciplines.Originally posted by Honeybunz:Bible - That's what they will claim lah. But who pass down the bible teaching to them? Themselves?
Ya, Holy Spirit didn't and will not guide Luther that way. But I'm sure he thought otherwise.
About the website... can you summarise it for me into ten words or less?
I'm not saying everyone is a prodigy and can be self-taught. That's why Prots should attend bible study and fellowship together to learn the Word of God. Fellowship is important because it is hard to grow in a vacuum and they can rebuke you gently if you err.
The difference is that Prots believe in the five solas. The first one, Sola Scriptura, reminds them that the Bible is the sole authority and any claims must be checked against it.
Summary of website - False Doctrines of the "Pope" of Geneva -
How about the Blessed Sacrament?Originally posted by Honeybunz:Bread and wine is a totally different thing altogether. -
This is a never ending discussion haha.....
Anyway if we, regardless as protestants and catholics, regard the bible as the word of God, then it is the authoritative word of God and therefore, none shall be equal to it, including the Sacred Tradition. If you think otherwise, it is wrong.
Thank you!
Have a nice day -
It's the same thing lor...Originally posted by Icemoon:How about the Blessed Sacrament?
Next are you going to ask me how about the Eucharist?
and then ask how about Body of Christ and transubstantiation?
Blessed Sacrement is not icon. Neither are bread and wine .
I am having insomnia, but you dun have to entertain me this way leh
Agrrhhh... -
New meaning to God's words? Like what?Originally posted by Honeybunz:Har, study the Word of God carefully with the Church or on my own hoping that the "Holy Spirit" can guide me to find some new meaning to God's words?
Then maybe I will set up my own denomination, so as to have my own followers.
Marcion, Nestorus, Sabellius (eh...your spelling? I had a hard time looking up what they are), they existed long before the Protestantism was founded.
And those are not the cults that I was talking about. I was referring to those that were founded by exProts, who each claimed to be inspired by God in some ways to have better understanding of God's teaching and thus set up their groups.
Those spelling ah .. aiyah I never check one lah .. I just type them from memory .. I assume the audience know who I am talking about.
Anyone is free to set up his own group for a variety of reasons. It doesn't matter whether that person is inspired by God or not, all the claims about "God speaking to me last night" cannot be verified. So during the Schism, the Eastern set up their own group. SSPX also set up their own group. King of England also set up his own group. In a sense, cults and heretical groups are not so different.
Furthermore, a protestant cult is an oxymoron. A cult is defined - A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
If one believes in the five solas and firmly believe that Christ is the head of the Church, it is a mistake to over-trust or super revere the leader of the sect. -
The Sole authority of the Holy Scriptures (the Bible), is not about any how interpret the Bible, its not about dumping the guidance of theChurch, its not about dumping the works of the scholars, its about this.Originally posted by Honeybunz:Cuz they believe in Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide (spelling?) . No church authority is necessary. Neither is church guidance. Just their own relationship with God and Holy Spirit will guide them not to go wrong. But founders of cult groups also follow this principle... so....
In matters regarding scriptural teachings and dictrines, the Holy Scripture as the word of God rules supreme.
If what the church/scholars be it in teaching or tradition says/does contrast that of the Holy Scripture, then the chruch/scholars is not correct.
In Bible Study, we appeal to the
1) the absolute authority of the Bible as the written word of God, meaning against the word of God, our feelings and experience don't count
2) the unity of the Bible (God do not contridic Himself), in that where one part of the Bible is hard to understand, there is another part that explains this plainly (this is what cross referencing means), a good example John 3:14-15,
what is Jesus telling Nicodemus? "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." (look at how the bronze serpent was put on the pole and compare how Jesus was cruified on the cross) -
ICEMOON, you defend the Protestant position so well....... am i going to believe that you are a protestant now?
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I will start another topic related to this.Originally posted by vince69:In Bible Study, we appeal to the
1) the absolute authority of the Bible as the written word of God, meaning against the word of God, our feelings and experience don't count
2) the unity of the Bible (God do not contridic Himself), in that where one part of the Bible is hard to understand, there is another part that explains this plainly (this is what cross referencing means), a good example John 3:14-15,
what is Jesus telling Nicodemus? Like How Moses lifted up the Serpent, this is how the Son of Man shall be lifted up. -
There are scriptural truth in the Eucharist, its the way its being administered that in my personal opinion is questionable.Originally posted by Honeybunz:It's the same thing lor...
Next are you going to ask me how about the Eucharist?
and then ask how about Body of Christ and transubstantiation?
Blessed Sacrement is not icon. Neither are bread and wine .
I am having insomnia, but you dun have to entertain me this way leh
Agrrhhh... -
The Protestant position makes more sense .. don't you think so?Originally posted by Ironside:ICEMOON, you defend the Protestant position so well....... am i going to believe that you are a protestant now?
IMHO, the Catholics are the one without any "checks and balances".
PS: But then I wouldn't say they dunno what is the Gospel ..