A blog which I read regarding prosperity gospel
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means I am unlucky har?Originally posted by M©+square:My auntie was healed from Thyroid tumour 6months ago.
The tumour shrunk and disappeared after 2-3months of attending Miracle Service.
Her Doctor closed her case after two scans. He was amazed as well.
I think she believes in Jesus, but is not willing to commit.
or dun have faith?
which church she went?
If ur aunt really healed I would like to talk to her.... -
on 1, 2 and 3:Originally posted by vince69:make it this way,
1) the medical doctors will never give a sworn medical statements, what is this person thinking? he is the court of law?
2) no medical professional will ethically release patient's information (especially medical records), you will need a court injuction to get them legally.
3) I am wondering on whose authority is he demanding the proof? as in given the 2 points above, why would people want to go through all these trouble for him?
If the patient wills it, the doctor can release the information.
On 3, think of it this way .. if the information can convince SIS of God, why not?
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kok!Originally posted by laoda99:means I am unlucky har?
or dun have faith?
which church she went?
If ur aunt really healed I would like to talk to her....
Simmi unlucky.
Which church ah....aiyah...
My aunt really healed, and shortly after that she recovered from depression. Now travelling... -
Do u know why I am skeptical?Originally posted by M©+square:kok!
Simmi unlucky.
Which church ah....aiyah...
My aunt really healed, and shortly after that she recovered from depression. Now travelling...
The closest testimony I have from a fellow Christian was he was healed from hep B, but it came back, and then later it disappeared again. He didn't give very precise information, which makes me still doubt a lot.
And if there is anyone u know kena cured of AIDs or grow a new kidney from nowhere, pls let me know who he is. I wanna talk to him.
Got people resurrected from the dead also let me know. Coz Benny Hinn says he did it b4. -
Laoda,Originally posted by laoda99:Uncle Vince,
The people who are healed, from these charismatic churches, should step out and show these evidence.
I myself, did not receive healing from Charismatic Church. Do u want my testimony or blood test reports? I can gladly produce for u.
I have proclaimed so many times "by his stripes I am healed" as taught by Charismatic Pastors but I have not. And I have gone to more than one Charismatic Church already. The helpers even help me to "reject" and "rebuke" the disease "Satan planted" in me.
Have u ever look at how the sick and the lame and the blind, these pple who went for miracle sessions? Do you know how pitiful they are? Going back weeks after weeks of miracle sessions hoping for a miracle....it just dun happen tat way.....
what I am not happy with the way it is being asked is
1) what is there a need for a "sworn written medical statements", is this person trying to hold a court session? how about a queen's counsel? in most event wouldn't a normal medical report suffice? what is being asked here as a "sworn written medical statements" is that all the doctors/patients and people involved have to go to a Commissioner for Oaths, and make a legal and binding statement, who so free to go through all these trouble? -
Uncle Vince,Originally posted by vince69:Laoda,
what I am not happy with the way it is being asked is
1) what is there a need for a "sworn written medical statements", is this person trying to hold a court session? how about a queen's counsel? in most event wouldn't a normal medical report suffice? what is being asked here as a "sworn written medical statements" is that all the doctors/patients and people involved have to go to a Commissioner for Oaths, and make a legal and binding statement, who so free to go through all these trouble?
If there are no "sworn written medical statements", at least the patient can produce blood test results, for example, in the case of pple turning negative from positive suffering from Hepatitis....and AIDs also.......
I want to find out how pple can be cured of AIDs just by going to church.......
I agree with the writer that there are so many healings taking place as claimed by Charismatics....shouldn't anyone "healed" help produce any medical evidence to show others? I am not talking abt headaches or backaches or neck pain......I am talking abt serious diseases....it will be good publicity for the church too.....to produce evidence for someone who grow new kidneys when the old is already removed.... -
I think don't take his words too literally.Originally posted by vince69:Laoda,
what I am not happy with the way it is being asked is
1) what is there a need for a "sworn written medical statements", is this person trying to hold a court session? how about a queen's counsel? in most event wouldn't a normal medical report suffice? what is being asked here as a "sworn written medical statements" is that all the doctors/patients and people involved have to go to a Commissioner for Oaths, and make a legal and binding statement, who so free to go through all these trouble?
He just wants a no bullshit report from the docs, that's all. -
not a a sworn medical statements, they won'tOriginally posted by Icemoon:on 1, 2 and 3:
If the patient wills it, the doctor can release the information.
On 3, think of it this way .. if the information can convince SIS of God, why not?
if normal medical reports, the patient themselves would already have a copy. -
normal medical reports, the patients themselves already have.Originally posted by Icemoon:I think don't take his words too literally.
He just wants a no bullshit report from the docs, that's all.
why need to name and interview the doctors? they very free meh? -
not everyone is comfortable with sharing their medical records with total strangers.Originally posted by laoda99:Uncle Vince,
If there are no "sworn written medical statements", at least the patient can produce blood test results, for example, in the case of pple turning negative from positive suffering from Hepatitis....and AIDs also.......
I want to find out how pple can be cured of AIDs just by going to church.......
I agree with the writer that there are so many healings taking place as claimed by Charismatics....shouldn't anyone "healed" help produce any medical evidence to show others? I am not talking abt headaches or backaches or neck pain......I am talking abt serious diseases -
Then why share testimonies in the first place, these pple.....these pple not willing to show others the glory of god....what god has done for them?Originally posted by vince69:not everyone is comfortable with sharing their medical records with total strangers. -
But normal medical reports are often cursory.Originally posted by vince69:normal medical reports, the patients themselves already have.
why need to name and interview the doctors? they very free meh?
It is better to verbally confirm and seek professional opinion. There are certain things doctors cannot and will not write on medical reports. -
yes, seeking professional opinion is important, but this is for the patients to confirm for himself/herself, not for a total stranger to kaypo into the patients medical histories.Originally posted by Icemoon:But normal medical reports are often cursory.
It is better to verbally confirm and seek professional opinion. There are certain things doctors cannot and will not write on medical reports.
would you want to show your medical records to the world, especially some part of it may be very personal and private stuff (like pictures/photos)? -
This runs contrary to the spirit of giving testimonies.Originally posted by vince69:yes, seeking professional opinion is important, but this is for the patients to confirm for himself/herself, not for a total stranger to kaypo into the patients medical histories.
would you want to show your medical records to the world, especially some part of it may be very personal and private stuff (like pictures/photos)? -
Well, carry on believing what serves you.Originally posted by laoda99:If we have pple like beowulf in this forum, CK, SIS, Heng@, Shade all finish liao....
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well...same to u too.....Originally posted by shade343:Well, carry on believing what serves you.
think u really got nothing to say liao.... -
I agree....then might as well dun give testimonies....Originally posted by Icemoon:This runs contrary to the spirit of giving testimonies. -
probably this is why, a lot more was not made public.Originally posted by laoda99:I agree....then might as well dun give testimonies....
anyway, you guys have fun trying to get them lah, just remember cannot impose on others on things like these which some may be private and personal. -
i like u uncle vinceOriginally posted by vince69:probably this is why, a lot more was not made public.
anyway, you guys have fun trying to get them lah, just remember cannot impose on others on things like these which some may be private and personal.
at least u never lose ur temper and write us blaspheming the holy spirit
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Can see .. uncle vince is defensive towards his church.
btw .. where is uncle eng? -
I was having so much fun there, but now I think I very sian already lah.Originally posted by Icemoon:Can see .. uncle vince is defensive towards his church.
btw .. where is uncle eng?
ok, ok, on Ps Prince's Volvo, pssst(joke only hah)... don't park near his car, his parking not so good, at least 2 person's car already kenna liao -
uncle eng very sianz..... too many arguments in EH liao, mostly repeats lah, charistmatic, speaking in tongue, healing, OT teachings vs NT teachings...Originally posted by Icemoon:Can see .. uncle vince is defensive towards his church.
btw .. where is uncle eng?
plus heavy workload.....Originally posted by vince69:I was having so much fun there, but now I think I very sian already lah.
ok, ok, on Ps Prince's Volvo, pssst(joke only hah)... don't park near his car, his parking not so good, at least 2 person's car already kenna liao maybe lay hands on the cars and heal them.... just kidding.....
tell him to drive a smaller car lah.... big car at Suntec city's congested carpark... sure to kena one lah... -
Just a gentle reminder... don't judge anybody as in tell people not to go to anybody's church or saying that people will go to hlel because they did this and that or preached this and that. Sure, you can disagree, you can point out but if you go beyond that, then you bear the consequences.
Like I said, I have no qualms about and still go to NCC services for the reasons I stated even though I am such a strong critic of their preaching.
Just state your case and don't judge and or condemn. -
http://ripostes.blogspot.com/2005/04/neither-healthy-nor-gospel-health-and.html
Neither Healthy Nor Gospel: the Health and Wealth Gospel
I recently came across a little booklet entitled Health and Wholeness through the Holy Communion by Joseph Prince (who is the pastor of a mega-church in Singapore). After glancing through it, I felt motivated to write a response.
(Preliminary note on the term “health and wealth gospel”: By that term is designated a brand of teaching within the professing Christian church that espouses and emphasizes the idea of temporal benefits (mainly, health and wealth) as being of great importance in God’s will for all Christians. According to this teaching, Christians can and should access such divine benefits by claiming in faith God’s supposed promises in these regard. Associated ideas and terminology include “faith healing”, “positive confession”, and “name-it-and-claim-it”. The intuition or reasoning behind such teaching is the rather simplistic one that moves from certain obvious scriptural truths, e.g., God’s love for us and His omnipotence, to the false conclusion that He must therefore want and would bless His own with what seems obviously desirable to humans—health and wealth. This teaching, however, ultimately fails to do justice to the whole counsel of Scripture, and fails to glorify God in all His revealed wisdom, love, majesty and sovereignty. I believe that “health and wealth gospel” describes Prince’s teachings; but whether or not it accurately describes the said teaching is not the main point of this critique.)
I shall first briefly lay out the main propositions of PrinceÂ’s teaching on the Holy Communion (HC), and then proceed to examine each of them in further detail. His teaching can be summed up thusly:
Optimal health is God’s will for all Christians. Therefore, something is very wrong when Christians suffer weakness, sickness, or premature death (WSPD). To be precise, there is “one and only one reason” (10) for WSPD and that is the “failure to discern the Lord’s body” (11) in the partaking of the Holy Communion. Now, if it is true that there is only one reason for WSPD, and that it is the unworthy partaking of the HC—understood as the failure to discern and claim by faith the healing power of the communion bread—then Prince is justified in concluding that Christians should be in good health if they do what he proposes as they approach the Lord’s Table. It is my contention that this claim on which his entire teaching on the HC depends is false.
Prince then goes on to interpret a few relevant verses in 1 Cor 11, attempting to clarify what a few of the key expressions mean. First, it is to the “principalities and powers” (that is, the devils) that we “proclaim the Lord’s death” (v. 26) and His victory over them. Second, partaking “in an unworthy manner” (v. 29) refers to the partaking of the HC without a recognition and claiming by faith of its healing powers. Third, the command to “examine yourselves” before one partakes (v. 2
refers, once again, to reflection to see if one is approaching the Table in faith that consuming the bread will make one healthy and whole. Fourth, the warning of drinking “judgement” to oneself (v. 29) refers to missing out on the blessing of healing, and continuing to suffer the divine sentence of physical susceptibility to WSPD that befell all humankind when Adam and Eve fell into sin. All these notions, however, seem to be neither taught in 1 Cor 11 nor in the handful of other verses he cites in support of them. I will consider, for instance, his use of Col 2:15 in his teaching of the proclamation made to devils (v. 26); and Acts 2:42 which he cites to persuade that his view of the HC is not a novel one but indeed one that was accepted and practiced by the early church.
In conclusion, since the effects of the HC are so wonderful, guaranteeing health and wholeness—even a sort of perennial youthfulness (“And even your friends will see the results. They will begin to ask you, “Hey, why do you seem to look younger and younger? You never seem to age!” p. 47)—Prince encourages his readers to partake of the HC as often as possible, as often as you need it, as the more you partake, the better you will get.
Now I shall move on to a more detailed examination and critique of PrinceÂ’s teachings listed above. If you are interested in critiquing Prince's or like teachings; if you agree with Prince and would like to respond; or if you're simply interested for other reasons, read on! -
http://wooq.blogspot.com/2005/08/doctrinal-heresy-of-healing-through.html
This is a theological rebuttal to the article "Health And Wholeness Through The Holy Communion" by Joseph Prince, pastor of New Creation Church, Singapore. The article can be found in the August 2004 issue of Solid Rock, a publication of New Creation Church, or viewed at the website www.newcreation.org.sg. Another blogger, Elaine Loh, has provided a more detailed theological rebuttal that can be found over here.
In this article, Joseph Prince tries to show his readers that the Holy Communion has the ability to grant divine health to its partakers. Prince wrote in the article:
As long as we are here on earth, our bodies are subject to the ageing process, which is part of the divine sentence. All our bodies are decaying every day. Our brain cells are dying daily.
The Holy Communion is God’s solution for us to stop the decay. And even your friends will see the results. They will begin to ask you, “Hey, why do you seem to look younger and younger? You never seem to age!”
One day, when we get to heaven, we will have brand new bodies that never grow old, never tire and never look bad. Meanwhile, the LordÂ’s Supper is how God helps us offset this process of ageing and walk in divine health. Every time you partake, you are reversing the effects of the curse or divine judgement in your bodyÂ…
Throughout the entire article, Prince mainly used 1 Corinthians 11:20-22,27-30 as his main Biblical reference. As I read and reread through the entire article a couple of times, I have discovered to my astonishment that Prince absolutely failed to highlight 1 Corinthians 11:23-26, which explains the real purpose of the Holy Communion:
For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
When the Apostle Paul wrote this Scriptural passage, he was making reference to the event at Luke 22:19, where it states: “And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
The big question to Prince is, if the Holy Communion is intended to provide divine healing, Jesus would have said, “do this to heal your bodies” or “do this in remembrance and it will heal your bodies also.” These alternative phrasings would definitely prove that there is healing in the Holy Communion. Though at the beginning of the article, Prince made clear that he would refer to 1 Corinthians 11, he probably knew that the verses 23-26 will not cast his unscriptural doctrine in a favorable light. Thus he chose to skip these verses entirely altogether.
Even without verses 23-26, Prince has failed to establish a direct relation between healing and the Holy Communion. Prince wrote,
What is it to partake unworthily? Read the rest of verse 29 and you will conclude that if you fail to discern or understand the significance of the LordÂ’s body, you are eating and drinking in an unworthy manner.
The Corinthians partook unworthily because they did not recognise that the broken body of the Lord was meant to bring them health and wholeness.
And by treating the Holy Communion as a ritual, they missed out on the blessings. They did not understand the significance of the bread. They did not know why they were partaking. This is what it means to partake unworthily.
The manner in which we partake will determine whether we experience the benefits of the Lord’s body. If our attitude is “it’s just a piece of bread”, then that is what it will be. And we will have robbed ourselves of the life-giving effects of the bread at His Table.
The full text of verse 29 is “For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.” Prince is implying that the Corinthians failed to recognize the “life-giving effects,” which he took to be “healing, health and wholeness.” However, there is a difference between the phrase “recognizing the body” and “recognizing the benefits of the body.” The former is trying to caution the Christians not to treat the Holy Communion like an ordinary meal by looking towards the atonement of Jesus Christ, while the latter is stressing on the blessings of the atonement.
Was the Apostle Paul concerned that the Corinthians were not recognizing the blessings? It seems not. At verses 20-22, the Apostle Paul stated the problem the Corinthians had with the Holy Communion; that they were treating it like an ordinary meal.
When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!
The Corinthians were partaking the Holy Communion in a disorderly manner, with some getting drunk while others getting hungry. It is clear that the problem was behavioral. It has nothing to do with recognizing the blessings of the atonement. If the Corinthians had been partaking in an orderly manner, then perhaps PrinceÂ’s interpretation might have made more sense.