A blog which I read regarding prosperity gospel
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A blog which I have read....http://wooq.blogspot.com/2006/01/response-to-terence-concerning.html
This is in response to the blogger, Terence, who has posted nearly identical comments on my articles 1 Corinthians 4:6-17 - Suffering or Prosperity? and Refutation of City Harvest's "Divine Healing" Article (Part 1)
Terence wrote,
But I have to disagree with your stand on the prosperity gospel. The prosperity gospel does not turn God into "nothing more than a genie in a bottle, where God accedes to every material and healing requests of the believer." Where did you get that from? I believe in the prosperity gospel, yet I do not believe a single ounce of that statement.
Perhaps you may want to refer to these quotes:
Are you facing an impossible situation in your finances that has no earthly remedy? ... Offer up your sacrifice and prayers to the Lord in faith, believing that He will do according to your word … Heavenly Father. thank you for the promise of Your Word that declares that, whatever I ask You in the name of Jesus, You'll do. – Larry Keefauver and Tom Gill, Declare Your Inheritance, Harvest Times Issue 23
As a believer, you have a right to make commands in the name of Jesus. Each time you stand on the Word, you are commanding God to a certain extent because it is His Word. – Kenneth Copeland (Our Covenant with God [Fort Worth, TX: KCP Publications, 1987], 32.)
When I first got saved they didn't tell me I could do anything. What they told me to do was that whenever I prayed I should always say, 'The will of the Lord be done.' Now, doesn't that sound humble? It does. Sounds like humility, it's really stupidity. I mean, you know, really, we insult God. I mean, we really do insult our Heavenly Father. We do; we really insult Him without even realizing it. If you have to say, 'If it be thy will' or 'Thy will be done'--if you have to say that, then you're calling God a foolbecause He's the One that told us to ask. . . . If God's gonna give me what He wants me to have, then it doesn't matter what I ask. I'm only gonna get what God wants me to have. So that's an insult to God's intelligence. – Frederick K.C. Price ("Ever Increasing Faith" program on TBN [16 November 1990].)
More quotes can be found in the article Word of Faith and Revival Leaders: What They Teach. -
The writer beowulf writes reasonable stuff
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http://wooq.blogspot.com/2005/08/refutation-of-city-harvests-divine.html
And this...the charismatics sound pathetic....using emotions to appeal rather than the word.... -
If we have pple like beowulf in this forum, CK, SIS, Heng@, Shade all finish liao....
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http://vivavoxdei.blogspot.com/
Friday, May 19, 2006
The Almost Christian
I once asked a leader of a megachurch in Singapore, “Do you know the fundamentals of the Christian faith?”
He replied emphatically, “Christianity is all about Christ. I know Jesus, and that’s enough for me. It’s love that matters. Don’t talk to me about doctrine. Talk to me about Christ, and Christ alone.”
This megachurch leader reminded me of a worship service I attended more than a decade ago. That worship began with a blaring cacophony rivalled only by the most jarring rock band in Asia. As the drumbeat builds up to a crescendo, the worshippers trembled violently as if a thousand volts were passing through their bodies. Some jumped and gyrated like cobras enchanted by the tune of the pipe. Hands were waving wildly like willows in the wind; faces were flushed as in an apoplectic rage.
Suddenly, the worship leader muttered an incantation, “God loves you! Show Him that you love Him too!” The mesmerized audience responded with twitching eyelids and flipping, dishevelled hair. This was accompanied by the ear-piercing shrieks of unintelligible sounds and babbles thought to be the manifestation of the Spirit. The sequence of worship was repeated for 2 whole hours in different rhythms: samba, rumba, slow rock and bossa nova. Even a short rap session performed by a group of teenagers was squeezed between songs.
Noticeably, the audience were entranced. But most of all, the worshippers felt worshipful. Amidst the drumbeats, the waving hands and the nodding heads, the worshippers could feel an ambience of love, as though God loved them - acne, warts, and all.
The lights were dimmed. A man in suit started a sermonette on the topic of “love.” His theology is uncomplicated, and could possibly be summarized in three words: God is love. He preached that Christians ought to love indiscriminately. Even the God he described was an adorable, sensitive, and “a very nice guy.” Not very much like Jehovah of the Old Testament, he says. “God is concerned with salvation, not revenge!” “God is love, my friends. So how can a loving God send anyone to hell?” “Jesus loves you, no matter what you do.” I saw tears flowing down the cheeks of those in the auditorium. But if God really loves man no matter what man does, He is not the God of the Bible, isn’t He?
The preacher went on to give his treatise on Christology. Once again, his doctrine of Christ is relatively straightforward. It can be summarized in a sentence: “Jesus loves you.” And “you” refers to “whosoever is listening to his sermon.” His Jesus is a sentimental Jesus, an effeminate God-Man who tries very hard to woo sinners to Himself. This Jesus probably had bushy eyebrows, thick lips and epicene features. Most crucially, this Jesus loves everybody, and knows nothing of hell. If there were really hell fire, this loving Jesus would make an ice cube so huge even He cannot lift it. And the rich man in hell wouldn’t be asking Lazarus for a drink. There will be a cocktail bar not too far down the street.
Jesus, according to him, is the greatest entrepreneur and Chief Executive Officer (CEO). He is the CEO of the largest organization on Earth – the church. The pope and bishops are His trusted henchmen. And tithing is the best investment shareholders can make in this company. The most naturally thing to do – of course, for the successful deputy CEO – is to urge all shareholders to empty their pockets into the company’s investments.
Unfortunately, the lovey-dovey CEO called Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible.
This is the Christ of an “almost Christian”, and the God of an almost Christianity. The “almost Christian” believes in an almost Jesus. But that almost Jesus does not save. Likewise, the almost Jesus’ of Mormonism, Armstrongism, Jehovah Witness, Romanism and Liberalism do not save.
The journey of faith must never be devoid of Truth. True faith is based upon sound knowledge and doctrine. Sound doctrine is based upon the Word of God, and genuine faith enables the Christian to delight in sound doctrine. Bishop J.C. Ryle once commented, “You can talk about Christian experience all you wish, but without doctrinal roots it is like cut flowers stuck in the ground - it will wither and die.”
My sister once worshipped in a mega-church in Singapore. But when the theatrics no longer conjure up those sentimental feelings, the mind is left with a chasm too wide for any stage histrionics to bridge. Paul said, “For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge (Romans 10:2).” This lack of knowledge was eventually filled with a mawkish, New Age positivism. And Theism was replaced with her newfound New Age Pantheism.
Aidan W. Tozer warned, “The unattended garden will soon be overrun with weeds; the heart that fails to cultivate truth and root out error will shortly be a theological wilderness.”
My sister remains till this day a victim of a “zeal of God” which is not according to knowledge and sound doctrine. She was an almost Christian. But an almost Christian is tragically not a bona fide Christian.
Many benighted souls like my sister may eventually join the ranks of the “almost Christians” in church history, together with Balaam the prophet, Jehu the king, and Judas the apostle. Sadly, the world hates them, because they were almost Christians. And God hates them, because they are but hypocrites and deceivers. Ultimately, they deceive themselves unto eternal perdition.
I shall conclude with a sobering thought from B. H. Carroll:
“A church with a little creed is a church with a little life. The more divine doctrines a church can agree on, the greater its power, and the wider its usefulness. The fewer its articles of faith, the fewer its bonds of union and compactness.
The modern cry: 'Less creed and more liberty,' is a degeneration from the vertebrate to the jellyfish, and means less unity and less morality, and it means more heresy. Definitive truth does not create heresy--it only exposes and corrects. Shut off the creed and the Christian world would fill up with heresy unsuspected and uncorrected, but none the less deadly.
Just so it is not good discipline that created backsliding and other sins of Christians. But discipline is oftentimes the only means of saving a church. To hold to discipline for immoralities and relax it on doctrine puts the cart before the horse and attempts to heal a stream while leaving the fountain impure. To Christ and the apostles false creeds were the most deadly things, and called most for the use of the knife. . . .
Again, I solemnly warn the reader against all who depreciate creeds, or who would reduce them to a minimum of entrance qualifications into the church.” (An Interpretation of the English Bible: Colossians, Ephesians, and Hebrews, pp. 140-41, 150) -
I feel that the intend of personal attack is there.Originally posted by laoda99:http://wooq.blogspot.com/2005/08/refutation-of-city-harvests-divine.html
And this...the charismatics sound pathetic....using emotions to appeal rather than the word.... -
u can read for urself in tat blogOriginally posted by M©+square:I feel that the intend of personal attack is there.
the blogger who is a reformed christian clearly refute the charismatic visitors to his blog with sound doctrine and these visitors only write to appeal to emotions with no theological backing...
The only thing they can do to attack this reformed christian is :"YOU HAVE BLASPHEMED THE HOLY SPIRIT!" which in my opinion is nonsense.
look at wat some charismatic visitor wrote:
Yaevlejunce said...
So, Mr Smarty-Pants Calvinist, tell me who does all the healing at healing crusades and in churches all around the world?
[Let me warn you before you reply - blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin.]
14/8/05 7:18 PM -
No body is saying he's wrong. He did quote the right passages and expound on it reasonably.Originally posted by laoda99:u can read for urself in tat blog
the blogger who is a reformed christian clearly refute the charismatic visitors to his blog with sound doctrine and these visitors only write to appeal to emotions with no theological backing...
The only thing they can do to attack this reformed christian is :"YOU HAVE BLASPHEMED THE HOLY SPIRIT!" which in my opinion is nonsense.
look at wat some charismatic visitor wrote:
Yaevlejunce said...
So, Mr Smarty-Pants Calvinist, tell me who does all the healing at healing crusades and in churches all around the world?
[Let me warn you before you reply - blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin.]
14/8/05 7:18 PM
The way i read it is, they do not disagree with his doctrine. But the way he attempt to refute each and every point of what Kong Hee preached.
It's not necessary to debunk the whole sermon.
Even though i reject Pastor Prince doctrine on Grace. But i do not disagree with all the points he preached in one sitting.(Not that there's nothing to bone pick on, it's a choice to listen with a learning attitude and evaluate later) Same goes to Ps Kong Hee as well. With due respect, i happen to be give preachers quite alot of benefit of doubt.
Sadly, CHC's doctrine of this time is ultra charismatic and material based. -
not all believers who worship in the spirit and speak in tongues and like upbeat tempo worship have bad doctrinal teachings.
some orthrodox churches also have bad dotrine... they just fly under the radar so they are not picked on as much. -
Aiyah...once those high profile churches teaches something doctrinally shakey. Everyone wants to whack them liao. Just waiting for the chance only.Originally posted by breytonhartge:not all believers who worship in the spirit and speak in tongues and like upbeat tempo worship have bad doctrinal teachings.
some orthrodox churches also have bad dotrine... they just fly under the radar so they are not picked on as much. -
Hmph, I am of the feeling the term 'charismatic' is so varied that is has become almost useless in trying to apply it to anybody. Basically it has become some kind of a mud-word to apply to anybody who seems to be doing things that are more extreme then me (if I happen to consider myself not one that is).
I do know a number of charismatics who are very strong in the Word, insist on it, and whose creeds are anything but just 'God is Love and that's it'. I don't think the divide is as clear as we might like it to be.
And sure there are a lot of people who hop onto the charismatic bandwagon and are your people of paper-cutout faith, but how is that any different from the multitudes of people who do go to traditional Word-strong churches week after week, sit down in the pews... and never really have any real faith in Him?
It seems each side has it's own version of false religion, simply that it shows up in different ways. I would so much rather look at the picture of what a serious, realistic Charismatic Christian might believe and contrast it with the serious, realistic Traditionalist. That might make more sense then pointing to the false religion in both to denounce the other. -
the blogger has sound reasoning, but I don't particularly like this paragraph where he slipped in a heavy dose of calvinism and treat it like mainstream belief.Originally posted by laoda99:u can read for urself in tat blog
the blogger who is a reformed christian clearly refute the charismatic visitors to his blog with sound doctrine and these visitors only write to appeal to emotions with no theological backing...
The only thing they can do to attack this reformed christian is :"YOU HAVE BLASPHEMED THE HOLY SPIRIT!" which in my opinion is nonsense.One must not neglect the fact that we as Christians are merely ordained instruments in the work of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is totally a work of God. For it is written: “And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” (Romans 8:30) Those whom God predestined in the beginning will be saved, with or without our help. Even the faith that we have is a gift from God. It is written: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.” (Ephesians 2:
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I think that at the core of it, a serious traditionalist word strong christian may not be very much different from a serious word strong charismatic...MHO.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Hmph, I am of the feeling the term 'charismatic' is so varied that is has become almost useless in trying to apply it to anybody. Basically it has become some kind of a mud-word to apply to anybody who seems to be doing things that are more extreme then me (if I happen to consider myself not one that is).
I do know a number of charismatics who are very strong in the Word, insist on it, and whose creeds are anything but just 'God is Love and that's it'. I don't think the divide is as clear as we might like it to be.
And sure there are a lot of people who hop onto the charismatic bandwagon and are your people of paper-cutout faith, but how is that any different from the multitudes of people who do go to traditional Word-strong churches week after week, sit down in the pews... and never really have any real faith in Him?
It seems each side has it's own version of false religion, simply that it shows up in different ways. I would so much rather look at the picture of what a serious, realistic Charismatic Christian might believe and contrast it with the serious, realistic Traditionalist. That might make more sense then pointing to the false religion in both to denounce the other. -
shu da chow fen (big tree draws wind)Originally posted by M©+square:Aiyah...once those high profile churches teaches something doctrinally shakey. Everyone wants to whack them liao. Just waiting for the chance only.
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Hmmm....Originally posted by breytonhartge:not all believers who worship in the spirit and speak in tongues and like upbeat tempo worship have bad doctrinal teachings.
some orthrodox churches also have bad dotrine... they just fly under the radar so they are not picked on as much.
I speak in tongues, like upbeat tempo worship.....
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vince u're catholic right? u've attended the growth sessions at CSC?Originally posted by vince69:Hmmm....
I speak in tongues, like upbeat tempo worship..... -
Christianity is all about balance. I have the privilege to come from a very conservative Brethen church and now I am attending a pro-charismatic church. I understand the 2 stands and at the end of the day, we take the good from both sides and apply it into our lives. There is no right way to love God. There is only God's way: to love Him with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. If you can do that, who cares if you love Him with thumping loud music or soft hymns.
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nope, I am attending services at NCC now.Originally posted by ben1xy:vince u're catholic right? u've attended the growth sessions at CSC?
Back then, I only attend (not regular) at the Our Lady of the Sacred Heart Church when I was in Sydney (cause so near the place I stay) and with my neighbours, I also attent UniChurch on Friday, Saturday is OCF bible study night (so Sunday morning very eng).
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Originally posted by gasband:Christianity is all about balance. I have the privilege to come from a very conservative Brethen church and now I am attending a pro-charismatic church. I understand the 2 stands and at the end of the day, we take the good from both sides and apply it into our lives. There is no right way to love God. There is only God's way: to love Him with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. If you can do that, who cares if you love Him with thumping loud music or soft hymns.
I can't say I had love Him with all my heart, mind and soul, cause I still weak (not a good excuse). But I know He still loves me dispite of my short coming. -
Precisely lah . Spend time learning to do that.... rather than discussing (I dun mean it is bad, but hey there are more important things) whether thumping music or jumping up and down is right or not.Originally posted by vince69: I can't say I had love Him with all my heart, mind and soul, cause I still weak (not a good excuse). But I know He still loves me dispite of my short coming.
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Part in red is what I hope to find out also.....
http://wooq.blogspot.com/2005/08/refutation-of-city-harvests-divine.html
17/2/06 12:33 PM
beowulf said...
I have absolutely no issue with the fact that God can and do sovereignly heal someone of his or her illness. However, it is the word-faith perversion of the doctrine of divine healing that I do take issue with. I have recently written a reply to Daniel (Pst Audrey's Zone) regarding this matter.
As for the “healings” that are supposedly taking place in word-faith churches in Singapore, it would be helpful if you can provide me with the names of the “healed” persons, as well as the contact details of their physicians. I would really like to have sworn written medical statements from their physicians that their patients were really healed without any help from medical treatments, drugs or therapies.
You said you "seen it, spoken to people who have been healed." With the abundance of “healing testimonies” coming from word-faith churches, I am sure you would not have any trouble obtaining documented medical proofs and getting at least one medical expert to publicly testify. -
not only you .. SIS also wants to find out.Originally posted by laoda99:Part in red is what I hope to find out also..... -
make it this way,Originally posted by laoda99:Part in red is what I hope to find out also.....
http://wooq.blogspot.com/2005/08/refutation-of-city-harvests-divine.html
17/2/06 12:33 PM
beowulf said...
I have absolutely no issue with the fact that God can and do sovereignly heal someone of his or her illness. However, it is the word-faith perversion of the doctrine of divine healing that I do take issue with. I have recently written a reply to Daniel (Pst Audrey's Zone) regarding this matter.
As for the “healings” that are supposedly taking place in word-faith churches in Singapore, it would be helpful if you can provide me with the names of the “healed” persons, as well as the contact details of their physicians. I would really like to have sworn written medical statements from their physicians that their patients were really healed without any help from medical treatments, drugs or therapies.
You said you "seen it, spoken to people who have been healed." With the abundance of “healing testimonies” coming from word-faith churches, I am sure you would not have any trouble obtaining documented medical proofs and getting at least one medical expert to publicly testify.
1) the medical doctors will never give a sworn medical statements, what is this person thinking? he is the court of law?
2) no medical professional will ethically release patient's information (especially medical records), you will need a court injuction to get them legally.
3) I am wondering on whose authority is he demanding the proof? as in given the 2 points above, why would people want to go through all these trouble for him? -
Uncle Vince,Originally posted by vince69:make it this way,
1) the medical doctors will never give a sworn medical statements, what is this person thinking? he is the court of law?
2) no medical professional will ethically release patient's information (especially medical records), you will need a court injuction to get them legally.
3) I am wondering on whose authority is he demanding the proof? as in given the 2 points above, why would people want to go through all these trouble for him?
The people who are healed, from these charismatic churches, should step out and show these evidence.
I myself, did not receive healing from Charismatic Church. Do u want my testimony or blood test reports? I can gladly produce for u.
I have proclaimed so many times "by his stripes I am healed" as taught by Charismatic Pastors but I have not. And I have gone to more than one Charismatic Church already. The helpers even help me to "reject" and "rebuke" the disease "Satan planted" in me.
Have u ever look at how the sick and the lame and the blind, these pple who went for miracle sessions? Do you know how pitiful they are? Going back weeks after weeks of miracle sessions hoping for a miracle....it just dun happen tat way..... -
My auntie was healed from Thyroid tumour 6months ago.Originally posted by laoda99:Uncle Vince,
The people who are healed, from these charismatic churches, should step out and show these evidence.
I myself, did not receive healing from Charismatic Church. Do u want my testimony or blood test reports? I can gladly produce for u.
I have proclaimed so many times "by his stripes I am healed" as taught by Charismatic Pastors but I have not. And I have gone to more than one Charismatic Church already. Have u ever look at how the sick and the lame and the blind, these pple who went for miracle sessions? Do you know how pitiful they are? Going back weeks after weeks of miracle sessions hoping for a miracle....it just dun happen tat way.....
The tumour shrunk and disappeared after 2-3months of attending Miracle Service.
Her Doctor closed her case after two scans. He was amazed as well.
I think she believes in Jesus, but is not willing to commit.