An article on Purgatory
-
Originally posted by Repented John 2:
RJ2,
I seem to agree with our catholic brethren. After their much clarification, i can accept a purgatory for [b]saved Christians.
Btw, brey & vince from NCC which preaches the heresy of once saved always saved & no repentance is needed for forgiveness bcos i know Ps Prince & people there preach that u don't even need to ask for forgiveness bcos u are already forgiven once for all. Which i find heretical.
Sorry brey & vince abt this. I am not against u personally.
[/b]
I may attend NCC, but I do not accept that once saved always saved, otherwise why would we be asked to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?
I stll do not accept the notion of purgatory which I still think is a heresy, because why is there need for further purification works if putting on Yeshua is not enough? -
Well, Ps Prince also guilty of condemning other preachers of being pharisees & law givers etc etc. In effect saying his is the right interpretation of scripture. The rest all missed it by focusing on law or mix law with grace etc.Originally posted by Chin Eng:by using the world "heresy", you presuppose that it is heretical to follow that trend of teaching. In itself it is a proclamation that judgement is passed upon those that follows this teaching.
I am also one of those that accept the "once-save-always-save" teaching, although I do believe that after salvation, sins are still being commited and one always need to be actively consciously be aware of this and that forgiveness needed to be seeked. Otherwise why the need for the Lord's Prayer's point on forgiveness for our sins..... -
It's true. I heard it myself from him & other members from NCC. Not no repentance but don't need to pray for forgiveness bcos all sins already forgiven. Just pray that i am the righteousness of God in Christ.Originally posted by klydeer:hmm...are u sure pastor prince said no repentence is needed for forgiveness ?
which sermon ?
if it is true - very serious.
if not. better dont anyhow hantum. -
Ok acceptable doctrine to me. Thanks.Originally posted by vince69:John, its ok, no offense taken, you are entitled to your opinion.
Allow me to share as I understand it, and express to the best of my ability using general terms.
When a person repent (change of mindset), he is saved and saved for enternality.
This is made possible by the grace of God, through the works of Christ, testified by the Holy Spirit. Nothing we do or did not do can add or minus from what Christ had already done and accomplished.
What is the different then? Before being saved, sin is naturally a part of him, so committing sin is natural, After being saved, he is a 'new' person (the old had passed away, we are now a new creation), committing sin is now not a natural thing.
After being saved, will this he still sin? yes. the flesh is still very much alive.
This is where the grace of God and perfection of Christ comes in, when a believer commited sin, knowing that there is now no comdemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, have the assurance of acceptance from God the Father, he can now find strength to turn back to God, repent and receive forgiveness, instead of running away from God because of fear and ended up deeper in sin. (reversing this, If this person when he had sin (fallen), feels that God condemned him or God had rejected him, do anyone think thinks he will be able to find courage to stand before God and repent and ask for forgiveness?)
Is this a ticket to sin? absolutely not, rather its this assurance of acceptance by the grace of God that we can find the strength and ability to resist temptation and flee from sin. Its because we know that we had been forgiven much, that we are able to love much.
since we are at this topic, let me add afew more
what is repentance? Its a change in mindset, to stop seeing things/situation/acts as how we see it, and start seeing them as how God sees them.
The life of a believer is not about doing what is legal and not doing what is illegal as according to the Law, but rather by the grace of God, doing the right things as how God sees them, guided by the Holy Spirit within us.
Thank you.
God bless.
(susgest reading from the book of Romans, I think the Apostle Paul explain this quite clearly here)
But one question. How do we know we are truly saved in the first place? Bcos an apostate can still call himself a Christian & embrace this ideology & forgive himself when he sins. If a so called Christian still sins, is he saved in the first place? Thanks. -
Originally posted by Ironside:
Hmmm. Ok.
Christ sacrifice is enough and sufficient for all sins-past, present and future.
Positionally all our sins are covered-past, present and future. That's why we are perfectly justified in God's eyes. This is what is called as salvation forgiveness or positional forgiveness by theologians.
However, in our walk here on earth our condition does not necesarilly reflect what we are in position. We sin and we stumble.
Here we need parental forgiveness. We need to confess our sins and repent from them.
Learn to distingush POSITIONAL TRUTHS FROM CONDITIONAL TRUTHS.
Between the believers STANDING AND THE BELIEVERS STATE. Positional truths are eternal. The condition of the Believer varies from time to time. We sin because we do not walk according to what we are in Christ [position].
In God's eyes we have already died to sin. [Positional truth] But our actual condition is not. God enjoins us to walk according to our position not according to our condition.
In God's eyes we are already perfected [positional truth] But our conditon is not yet perfect.
In [b]God's eyes we are already glorified. That's positional truth.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
But our actual condition here is not yet glorified. OUr bodies deteroriate. We still sin and etc.
God's unchanging love to us Christians is based on what we are in Christ [postional truth].
question: Why do we need to go to purgatory since Christ's sacrifice has perfected and glorified us? Can purgatory [if there is such a teaching as purgatory] perfect and glorify us acccording to the Scriptures?
[/b] -
Well ok. Thanks for your view.Originally posted by breytonhartge:RJ2,
I may attend NCC, but I do not accept that once saved always saved, otherwise why would we be asked to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?
I stll do not accept the notion of purgatory which I still think is a heresy, because why is there need for further purification works if putting on Yeshua is not enough?
But like what someone said, if we havent confessed & repented fully before we die? Then how? -
can a christian still commit sin? the answer is yes, the flesh is still weak, that's why we need to realise that God does not condemn us when we fall, so we can find the strength from Him stand up again, else we will just remain there in the fallen state.Originally posted by Repented John 2:Ok acceptable doctrine to me. Thanks.
But one question. How do we know we are truly saved in the first place? Bcos an apostate can still call himself a Christian & embrace this ideology & forgive himself when he sins. If a so called Christian still sins, is he saved in the first place? Thanks.
whether a person is an apostate or not, this we cannot be truely certain, a true believer with the Holy Spirit will normally show the fruits of the Holy Spirit in their lives, namely; love, peace, joy, hope, patiences...
hope this helps -
Is one of the fruits righteouseness or holiness? If so, can a sinning Christian be a Christian since Holy Spirit produces righteousness or holiness?Originally posted by vince69:can a christian still commit sin? the answer is yes, the flesh is still weak, that's why we need to realise that God does not condemn us when we fall, so we can find the strength from Him stand up again, else we will just remain there in the fallen state.
whether a person is an apostate or not, this we cannot be truely certain, a true believer with the Holy Spirit will normally show the fruits of the Holy Spirit in their lives, namely; love, peace, joy, hope, patiences...
hope this helps -
Originally posted by Repented John 2:Is one of the fruits righteouseness or holiness? If so, can a sinning Christian be a Christian since Holy Spirit produces righteousness or holiness?
righteousness and holiness, not in the list of fruits of the Spirit according to Galatians. the things is we do not and cannot depend on ourselves to gain righteousness and/or holiness, we need to be clothe in Christ's righteousness and His holiness.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. -
Only Christ can live His life. Stated in another way, only Christ can live the Christian life, no one else.Originally posted by Repented John 2:Is one of the fruits righteouseness or holiness? If so, can a sinning Christian be a Christian since Holy Spirit produces righteousness or holiness?
That statement is a big problem to us right? I am Ironside, you are John. We cannot live the Christ life. we got a problem....because God requires of us to live the Christ life.
But wait........didn't it happen that when we trusted in Christ alone for salvation that His Spirit, Christ Himself came to indwelt us? Yes, Christ is in us!!!!!!!!!!
What we need to do is to let Him live His life in us. Stepping aside and letting Him live through us.
".............For to me, to live is Christ,..........."
Col 3:4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
[Note: 'who is' is not in the original that's why it is italicized. it was just supplied by the translators. It should read then: 'When Christ OUR LIFE...'...By the way they are guaranteed future glory inspite of their imperfections. REad it again.]
Ga 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
Let Christ live His life in you. Yield to Him [another way of saying: 'Walk in the Spirit'] Know that you [your old self enslaved by sin] died with Christ that you are no longer a slave of sin [positionally]. Walk your position. Live out your position in Christ. Don't listen to your feelings. If you have trusted in Christ alone for salvation, then you are free my friend. Keep on coming back to this truth [about your freedom in Christ]. Put this truth into action.
Be led by the Spirit. Let Christ live His life in you. Make this a habit.
We sin everytime we don't live out our position in Christ. Everytime we choose to sin the Holy Spirit will be grieved. His ministry in your life as a Christian will change from enabling and empowering to convicting us of our sin. -
Purgatory is from the Latin word meaning 'purification'.Originally posted by gasband:So people who are bound for heaven are people who confessed that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Saviour and prayed to receive the gift of salvation rite? Ok if they did so, they have salvation and will not lose it becos that salvation is complete. They will go to heaven based on God's works not what we can do.
So tell me, what is the purpose of this PURGATORY?
This doctrine does not deny that salvation is completely the word of God and based on His Mercy through Christ.
Take a look at yourself and the many sincere, devout Christians that you know. How many of us can honestly say that we have already attain the same nature as God? After accepting Christ, do we not still have our faults and shortcomings? Do we not fall into sin from time to time?
Catholics believe that salvation means eternal life in communion with the Holy Trinity. Since the Trinity is perfection, it is not possible that there be communion with that which is imperfect.
If one believes that many people who are saved are still imperfect when they die, then this doctrine makes sense as it means that there is a process of purification to build up the soul's capacity to handle eternal life. To use an analogy, if a person has been locked up in a completely dark room for years, exposing him to light suddenly make harm his eyes. Similarly, the soul that has not already been perfected in this life will not have the capacity to handle the communion with the Holy Trinity.
Whether purgatory makes sense or not depends on your belief in what salvation consists. Some accept Luther's 'snow-covered dung hill' position of inputed righteousness, that Christ's grace covers up our sins without actually changing the state of our souls. In this schema, there is indeed no need for purgatory.
The Catholic position is that the grace of Christ is an actual infusion of supernatural life into a soul that has accepted His mercy. And since the soul continues to live in this world, it can diminish or even use the grace through its own sins, thus requiring constant forgiveness and repentence. In this schema, purgatory makes sense.
regards,
siginah -
this is my 2 cents worth, not mine actually.. since i am quoting from Professor Scott Hahn, a former pastor who converted to the Catholic faith. anyway, he drew a verse that he felt described salvation
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3 (NIV)
this is from KJV:
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
particularly verse 14-15 -
Ben, can share a bit on the verses/message means to you or what you think Professor Scott Hahn is saying? thanksOriginally posted by ben1xy:this is my 2 cents worth, not mine actually.. since i am quoting from Professor Scott Hahn, a former pastor who converted to the Catholic faith. anyway, he drew a verse that he felt described salvation
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3 (NIV)
this is from KJV:
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
particularly verse 14-15 -
Yeah I have my opinions what verses 14-15 actually means but maybe its good that you draw us to what sort of learnings you or pastor Scott had gotten from these 2 verses.
-
sorry for the late reply... had a long day out today.Originally posted by vince69:Ben, can share a bit on the verses/message means to you or what you think Professor Scott Hahn is saying? thanks
anyway, he used it to describe purgartory not salvation.. that was a typo on my part. i will need to listen back to his audio CD to give u a definite answer.. i 'll get back to u in a few days regarding this -
gas... would u like to share ur opinions on these 2 verses? i'll do up mine after i've listened to the CDOriginally posted by gasband:Yeah I have my opinions what verses 14-15 actually means but maybe its good that you draw us to what sort of learnings you or pastor Scott had gotten from these 2 verses. -
Ha! I finally have something agree with you. yayyyOriginally posted by breytonhartge:RJ2,
I may attend NCC, but I do not accept that once saved always saved, otherwise why would we be asked to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?
I stll do not accept the notion of purgatory which I still think is a heresy, because why is there need for further purification works if putting on Yeshua is not enough? -
+1.Originally posted by Honeybunz:Ha! I finally have something agree with you. yayyy