An article on Purgatory
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Of course. It happens all the time.Originally posted by klydeer:perhaps i am interrupting..but you raised an interesting point.
is it possible - that after accepting Christ as our Lord and thereby claiming His blood, that while we journey with God to know more about Him, that we come to know some of the actions/thoughts that we have in the past are actually not right with God ? And afterwhich repent ? I say this in the light of Discipleship.
The question is, how are you going to repent? -
My issue is not with repentence, but the phrase that says, Christ's blood cannot cleanse us perfectly and we need to add to it (repentance).Originally posted by plo30360:Christ's blood atones for us, washes away our sins yes. But is it possible to claim Christ's purifying blood without repentance? Or should I say can we accept Christ's blood without repentance?
This will then leads us to the question, is Christ's blood able to purify us perfectly? also can we repent (turn away) of our old ways without Christ?
Thanks
ps, this discussion is really good. -
Sorry, I'm not sure which phrase you'r refering to. Could you point where you got that pharse?
My issue is not with repentence, but the phrase that says, Christ's blood cannot cleanse us perfectly and we need to add to it (repentance).
For lack of a better word(s), I'm going to say its cyclic. Christ's blood grants us the grace to repent and by repenting we accept the offer of Christ's blood that justifies(atones for us) and purifies us.
This will then leads us to the question, is Christ's blood able to purify us perfectly? also can we repent (turn away) of our old ways without Christ? Smile -
Good answer: "All the time". It so does seems to me that Jesus Blood is Eternal.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Of course. It happens all the time.
The question is, how are you going to repent?
i raised this because some Christians that i come across, seems to be quite keen on the idea that Salvation has no "aftermath".
How to repent ? The first key is to acknowledge the wrong. 2nd, a willingness to change from what is wrong to what is Godly. 3rd, to seek God's help to do the change. -
This phrase, (not from you, from someone else in page 2 which I also quoted in my reply)
Ok, this statement, I agree with you." All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified. after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
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[quote]Originally posted by plo30360:For lack of a better word(s), I'm going to say its cyclic. Christ's blood grants us the grace to repent and by repenting we accept the offer of Christ's blood that justifies(atones for us) and purifies us.
Thanks. -
Justification we can agree..Originally posted by vince69:This phrase, (not from you, from someone else in page 2 which I also quoted in my reply)
Ok, this statement, I agree with you.
Thanks.
Sanctification I'm not so sure... -
neither can the various protestant churches/deniminations able to agree with each other fully on the sanctification part.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Justification we can agree..
Sanctification I'm not so sure...
One thing, In my opinion is that we need to know that everything, be it righteousness, salvation, forgiveness, justifications, sanctification, purfication ... are all by grace from God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Everything that we did has no effect on what Christ had already done. what we do now that we belongs to Him is just a response towards what He had done for us. The good works that we do is what He had enable us, had movitate us to do.
(apology if my expression is not really adequate) -
I seem to agree with our catholic brethren. After their much clarification, i can accept a purgatory for saved Christians.
Btw, brey & vince from NCC which preaches the heresy of once saved always saved & no repentance is needed for forgiveness bcos i know Ps Prince & people there preach that u don't even need to ask for forgiveness bcos u are already forgiven once for all. Which i find heretical.
Sorry brey & vince abt this. I am not against u personally. -
Originally posted by Repented John 2:
by using the world "heresy", you presuppose that it is heretical to follow that trend of teaching. In itself it is a proclamation that judgement is passed upon those that follows this teaching.
I seem to agree with our catholic brethren. After their much clarification, i can accept a purgatory for saved Christians.
Btw, brey & vince from NCC which preaches the heresy of once saved always saved & no repentance is needed for forgiveness bcos i know Ps Prince & people there preach that u don't even need to ask for forgiveness bcos u are already forgiven once for all. Which i find heretical.
I am also one of those that accept the "once-save-always-save" teaching, although I do believe that after salvation, sins are still being commited and one always need to be actively consciously be aware of this and that forgiveness needed to be seeked. Otherwise why the need for the Lord's Prayer's point on forgiveness for our sins..... -
Originally posted by Repented John 2:
hmm...are u sure pastor prince said no repentence is needed for forgiveness ?
I seem to agree with our catholic brethren. After their much clarification, i can accept a purgatory for [b]saved Christians.
Btw, brey & vince from NCC which preaches the heresy of once saved always saved & no repentance is needed for forgiveness bcos i know Ps Prince & people there preach that u don't even need to ask for forgiveness bcos u are already forgiven once for all. Which i find heretical.
Sorry brey & vince abt this. I am not against u personally. [/b]
which sermon ?
if it is true - very serious.
if not. better dont anyhow hantum. -
Originally posted by Repented John 2:
John, its ok, no offense taken, you are entitled to your opinion.
I seem to agree with our catholic brethren. After their much clarification, i can accept a purgatory for [b]saved Christians.
Btw, brey & vince from NCC which preaches the heresy of once saved always saved & no repentance is needed for forgiveness bcos i know Ps Prince & people there preach that u don't even need to ask for forgiveness bcos u are already forgiven once for all. Which i find heretical.
Sorry brey & vince abt this. I am not against u personally. [/b]
Allow me to share as I understand it, and express to the best of my ability using general terms.
When a person repent (change of mindset), he is saved and saved for enternality.
This is made possible by the grace of God, through the works of Christ, testified by the Holy Spirit. Nothing we do or did not do can add or minus from what Christ had already done and accomplished.
What is the different then? Before being saved, sin is naturally a part of him, so committing sin is natural, After being saved, he is a 'new' person (the old had passed away, we are now a new creation), committing sin is now not a natural thing.
After being saved, will this he still sin? yes. the flesh is still very much alive.
This is where the grace of God and perfection of Christ comes in, when a believer commited sin, knowing that there is now no comdemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, have the assurance of acceptance from God the Father, he can now find strength to turn back to God, repent and receive forgiveness, instead of running away from God because of fear and ended up deeper in sin. (reversing this, If this person when he had sin (fallen), feels that God condemned him or God had rejected him, do anyone think thinks he will be able to find courage to stand before God and repent and ask for forgiveness?)
Is this a ticket to sin? absolutely not, rather its this assurance of acceptance by the grace of God that we can find the strength and ability to resist temptation and flee from sin. Its because we know that we had been forgiven much, that we are able to love much.
since we are at this topic, let me add afew more
what is repentance? Its a change in mindset, to stop seeing things/situation/acts as how we see it, and start seeing them as how God sees them.
The life of a believer is not about doing what is legal and not doing what is illegal as according to the Law, but rather by the grace of God, doing the right things as how God sees them, guided by the Holy Spirit within us.
Thank you.
God bless.
(susgest reading from the book of Romans, I think the Apostle Paul explain this quite clearly here) -
Originally posted by Repented John 2:
Christ sacrifice is enough and sufficient for all sins-past, present and future.
I seem to agree with our catholic brethren. After their much clarification, i can accept a purgatory for [b]saved Christians.
Btw, brey & vince from NCC which preaches the heresy of once saved always saved & no repentance is needed for forgiveness bcos i know Ps Prince & people there preach that u don't even need to ask for forgiveness bcos u are already forgiven once for all. Which i find heretical.
Sorry brey & vince abt this. I am not against u personally. [/b]
Positionally all our sins are covered-past, present and future. That's why we are perfectly justified in God's eyes. This is what is called as salvation forgiveness or positional forgiveness by theologians.
However, in our walk here on earth our condition does not necesarilly reflect what we are in position. We sin and we stumble.
Here we need parental forgiveness. We need to confess our sins and repent from them.
Learn to distingush POSITIONAL TRUTHS FROM CONDITIONAL TRUTHS.
Between the believers STANDING AND THE BELIEVERS STATE. Positional truths are eternal. The condition of the Believer varies from time to time. We sin because we do not walk according to what we are in Christ [position].
In God's eyes we have already died to sin. [Positional truth] But our actual condition is not. God enjoins us to walk according to our position not according to our condition.
In God's eyes we are already perfected [positional truth] But our conditon is not yet perfect.
In God's eyes we are already glorified. That's positional truth.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
But our actual condition here is not yet glorified. OUr bodies deteroriate. We still sin and etc.
God's unchanging love to us Christians is based on what we are in Christ [postional truth].
question: Why do we need to go to purgatory since Christ's sacrifice has perfected and glorified us? Can purgatory [if there is such a teaching as purgatory] perfect and glorify us acccording to the Scriptures? -
Originally posted by Ironside:
Ironside,
Christ sacrifice is enough and sufficient for all sins-past, present and future.
Positionally all our sins are covered-past, present and future. That's why we are perfectly justified in God's eyes. This is what is called as salvation forgiveness or positional forgiveness by theologians.
However, in our walk here on earth our condition does not necesarilly reflect what we are in position. We sin and we stumble.
Here we need parental forgiveness. We need to confess our sins and repent from them.
Learn to distingush POSITIONAL TRUTHS FROM CONDITIONAL TRUTHS.
Between the believers STANDING AND THE BELIEVERS STATE. Positional truths are eternal. The condition of the Believer varies from time to time. We sin because we do not walk according to what we are in Christ [position].
In God's eyes we have already died to sin. [Positional truth] But our actual condition is not. God enjoins us to walk according to our position not according to our condition.
In God's eyes we are already perfected [positional truth] But our conditon is not yet perfect.
In [b]God's eyes we are already glorified. That's positional truth.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
But our actual condition here is not yet glorified. OUr bodies deteroriate. We still sin and etc.
God's unchanging love to us Christians is based on what we are in Christ [postional truth].
question: Why do we need to go to purgatory since Christ's sacrifice has perfected and glorified us? Can purgatory perfect and glorify us acccording to the Scriptures?
[/b]
Thanks for the clarification on Positional and Conditional Truth. -
Yeah...I think IRONSIDE explained it well....no matter what, to me, the BIBLE we are reading now and ONLY the BIBLE, contains words of the LIVING GOD. I do not believe in the PURGATORY or WHATEVER NAME you wanna give it. BUT, well, i accept there are differences and God gave us the free will to choose to believe in anything we choose to. So on my part, I have nothing more to add to this discussion.
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glad to be of service vince brotherOriginally posted by vince69:Ironside,
Thanks for the clarification on Positional and Conditional Truth. 
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Seeing only? Not doing?Originally posted by vince69:what is repentance? Its a change in mindset, to stop seeing things/situation/acts as how we see it, and start seeing them as how God sees them.
The life of a believer is not about doing what is legal and not doing what is illegal as according to the Law, but rather by the grace of God, doing the right things as how God sees them, guided by the Holy Spirit within us. -
the thing is if see also not right, then doing is definitely wrong, if seeing is correct, naturally the doing will follows.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Seeing only? Not doing?
right belief results in responsible/right living, not the other way round.
true replentance comes from the heart, influencing the mind, then the actions will follows naturally. -
follow your conscience?Originally posted by vince69:the thing is if see also not right, then doing is definitely wrong, if seeing is correct, naturally the doing will follows.
right belief results in responsible/right living, not the other way round.
true replentance comes from the heart, influencing the mind, then the actions will follows naturally. -
the inner guidance by the Holy Spirit.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:follow your conscience? -
what if your conscience is wrong?Originally posted by vince69:the inner guidance by the Holy Spirit. -
wrong in?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:what if your conscience is wrong? -
your conscience tells you its right, but objectively its wrong.Originally posted by vince69:wrong in? -
if wrong then make mistake loh...Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:your conscience tells you its right, but objectively its wrong.
but just to be in context with the subject and the discussion so far, are we still on the subject of repentence and purifications and puratory? -
oh yes....Originally posted by vince69:if wrong then make mistake loh...
but just to be in context with the subject and the discussion so far, are we still on the subject of repentence and purifications and puratory?
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