An article on Purgatory
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You see that person IS ALREADY SAVED! If your concept of purgatory is this way, then i might agree.Originally posted by plo30360:Purgatory is for souls who are bound for heaven but may not have repented of all their sins.This is a very crude explaination, I think Sgmacross can give a better one.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15:
"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."(Note, some translations have this line as purged by fire the last part)
quote:
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In Origen the doctrine of purgatory is very clear. If a man depart this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. "For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Corinthians 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works."
taken from:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
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erm, those are in Purgatory are going to Heaven. It's just a matter of 'when'.Originally posted by Repented John 2:You see that person IS ALREADY SAVED! If your concept of purgatory is this way, then i might agree. -
Well without the saving blood of Jesus & the close walk with Him, i doubt anyone can go to heaven. If your position is not coming to Christ before one dies & walking closely with Him & then going to purgatory to be washed of sins to go heaven, I am sorry i cannot agree.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:erm, those are in Purgatory are going to Heaven. It's just a matter of 'when'. -
One needs to consider this carefully... but I think it might be much fighting over nothing, for we can't really affect what goes on in there (if it exists).
It's a little like debating a lot over if God created other natures and creations (ie: Narnia) as well as ours, and making whole new churches and denominations based on this debate.
No we know what work is cut out for us here, we can't worry for the dead now... so let's worry about the living. -
Consider this...Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:No we know what work is cut out for us here, we can't worry for the dead now... so let's worry about the living.
one day, we too will be part of 'the dead'. so why shouldn't we worry? -
except that we know Yeshua, we are all dead, but because we know Yeshua, we have life eternal, so when we die, Yeshua says we are actually sleeping, and if having heard about Yeshua and His redeeming work on the cross, you already believe, then there is nothing more that one can do to add to ones salvation. the concept of purgatory about burning away our lighter faults is unecessary as by accepting Yeshua's saving grace, we are a new creation and YHWH see's us that way. We are righteous and YHWH sees us as such.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Consider this...
one day, we too will be part of 'the dead'. so why shouldn't we worry?
Either your sins are forgiven once and for all by Yeshua's work on the cross or if you insist on purgatory, then you make our Lord YHWH out to be a liar because you claim that what Yeshua has done on the cross is not enough and we have yet to go through more doing of "works" to attain the salvation which Yeshua offers.
Did not Yeshua say in the bible "let the dead bury their own dead?" Now is when we should be working out our salvation with fear and trembling, when we are alive, not when we are dead, for what good does it do to work it out then? Of what testimony are we to be for YHWH when we are dead? Who is going to hear???
IMHO, purgatory is a weak concept to soothe the weak minded and those who are not sincere about their faith so that they have an "out" and it is a concoction by individuals who do not want to be totally committed to living a life for Yeshua 100%. If we believe and have the full faith of our belief in Yeshua, then we will live our lives accordingly and not wish washy so that we need to have a plan B so to speak. -
Again someone who doesn't understand what purgtory is.If you do not trust in Christ for salvation, you wouldn't even have a chance to be in purgatory.
Either your sins are forgiven once and for all by Yeshua's work on the cross or if you insist on purgatory, then you make our Lord YHWH out to be a liar because you claim that what Yeshua has done on the cross is not enough and we have yet to go through more doing of "works" to attain the salvation which Yeshua offers.
Did not Yeshua say in the bible "let the dead bury their own dead?" Now is when we should be working out our salvation with fear and trembling, when we are alive, not when we are dead, for what good does it do to work it out then? Of what testimony are we to be for YHWH when we are dead? Who is going to hear???
IMHO, purgatory is a weak concept to soothe the weak minded and those who are not sincere about their faith so that they have an "out" and it is a concoction by individuals who do not want to be totally committed to living a life for Yeshua 100%. If we believe and have the full faith of our belief in Yeshua, then we will live our lives accordingly and not wish washy so that we need to have a plan B so to speak.
Purgatory is for souls already saved. This article by far has the best explaination of purgatory:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
There's no point discussing about purgatory as long as people have no idea what purgatory is and it is not. -
Have not come into direct contact with the term "Purgatory". After reading the article, seems to be similar to what Jesus said:
"But i tell you that men will have to give an account on the day of judgement for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words, you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." - Matthew 12: 36-27
this is a direct reminder to me that i am ultimately answerable to God for every word, action, thinking done. So it serves its purpose for me to try to follow God's heart in what i do, within the majesty of His Love, Grace and Mercy.
hrmm...isnt that enough?
Whether or not in the day of judgement, we are going to be "cleansed" or what will happen - somehow, it is unimaginable for me despite trying to imagine. And ....is it that important ?
If we know we are going to be cleansed - does it beg more questions ? How ? by fire ? painful or not ? jia lat...past sins...how many strokes will i get ? Well, perhaps the knowledge of Purgatory is not for me...as i can only be impressed upon that it could lead to stumble.
i dunno know. for me, living in this world is already a struggle. i can only focus on serving the Lord, knowing that it is the right Way. -
Originally posted by plo30360:
Taken from the article in question:
Again someone who doesn't understand what purgtory is.If you do not trust in Christ for salvation, you wouldn't even have a chance to be in purgatory.
Purgatory is for [b]souls already saved. This article by far has the best explaination of purgatory:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
There's no point discussing about purgatory as long as people have no idea what purgatory is and it is not.
[/b]The Catholic doctrine of purgatory supposes the fact that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sin is it times not wholly paid in this life.....
Again someone who does not understand the work of Yeshua on the cross.
....It is clear from the Liturgies and the Fathers above cited that the souls for whose peace sacrifice was offered were shut out for the time being from the sight of God. They were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness". Still, for them "death is the termination not of nature but of sin" (Ambrose, "De obitu Theodos."); and this inability to sin makes them secure of final happiness.
The point of contention here is the RC definition of sins, namely venial and temporal and that sins are not all equal to YHWH. Accroding to the article, it says that the RC doctrine of purgatory supposes that fact that some die with smaller faults for which there is no true repentance, and that some of our temporal sins are not wholly paid for. This is contradictory on a few points.
1. YHWH being righteous cannot stand sin, therefore it makes no difference whether you have a venial or temporal sin, you are still a sinner.
2. The work of Yeshua on the cross is that we have our sins forgiven once and for all and that we put on Yeshua's righteousness so that when YHWH sees us, He does not see sin but righteousness. Yeshua came to pay for our sins once and for all. There cannot be any sin that is not wholly paid for as Yeshua has already paid for it.
3. The whole doctrine rests on a supposition and is not a certainty, therefore, how can you be sure that it is correct? To find out the truth about our situation in relation to salvation and the forgiveness of sins, please read your bible and what YHWH and Yeshua have to say about it. The one supporting quote taken from 1 Corinthians for the support of this doctrine is not even support for this at all and I believe that it has been twisted and misconstrued by the RC church and her scholars. The OT proof for purgatory given by the RC church is in the book of macabees which is not recognised by mainstream protestant churches.
4. By saying that you need purgatory, you are saying that Yeshua's work on the cross is not enough to give you full access into your salvation and that you must "work" some more. This then makes YHWH and Yeshua liars which we know that they are not, so therefore the conclusion here is that purgatory is heresy, it undermines the whole message of Yeshua.
5. The doctrine is in itself flawed because it supposes that we though our own works on earth can earn "brownie points" for our salvation and entry into eternal happiness, and that should someone not earn enough points here on earth, he can continue to undertake this task in purgatory. This again is contradictory to Yeshua's teaching and it makes Yeshua's sacrifice on the cross of no effect because it does not have the fullness of the forgiveness of sins that is promised by YHWH and Yeshua.
6. The doctrine here namely relates to temporal sins which are not paid for, then I ask the question, why then when Yeshua was hanging on the cross with a robber to his right and left did He say to one of them truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise? if this is taken in its proper context, the robber who supposed still had some sin left and not paid for would be with Yeshua in paradise, that very day, it does not speak about today you will go to purgatory and then after a while you will be with me in paradise, it says TODAY you WILL be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” -
" All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified. after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
Catholic and Orthodox Christians believe in purgatory, a temporary place of punishment for Christians who have died with unconfessed sins. -
Exactly my point, as much as we live with one foot in the air we cannot live as if we already had two feet in it. It seems to me this issue is one of a crossing the bridge when we come to it.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Consider this...
one day, we too will be part of 'the dead'. so why shouldn't we worry? -
Let me open Pandora's Box.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:
Why is it not recognised? Who has the authority to determine the canon of the Bible?
The OT proof for purgatory given by the RC church is in the book of macabees which is not recognised by mainstream protestant churches. -
In other words your tryin to imply that we don't follow the Pualine verese "For, the wages of sin is death"
1. YHWH being righteous cannot stand sin, therefore it makes no difference whether you have a venial or temporal sin, you are still a sinner.
You know when you read something you should read it entirely. If you notice the article also states this:
On the other hand whosoever comes into God's presence must be perfectly pure for in the strictest sense His "eyes are too pure, to behold evil" (Habakkuk 1:13). For unrepented venial faults for the payment of temporal punishment due to sin at time of death, the Church has always taught the doctrine of purgatory.
This includes all sins not just major sins as you hav implied.
The question is not whether Christ paid for some for sins. Its is whether we have repented of every single one of them Dont tell me you acept salvation without repentence?
2. The work of Yeshua on the cross is that we have our sins forgiven once and for all and that we put on Yeshua's righteousness so that when YHWH sees us, He does not see sin but righteousness. Yeshua came to pay for our sins once and for all. There cannot be any sin that is not wholly paid for as Yeshua has already paid for it.
Mainstream churchs
3. The whole doctrine rests on a supposition and is not a certainty, therefore, how can you be sure that it is correct? To find out the truth about our situation in relation to salvation and the forgiveness of sins, please read your bible and what YHWH and Yeshua have to say about it. The one supporting quote taken from 1 Corinthians for the support of this doctrine is not even support for this at all and I believe that it has been twisted and misconstrued by the RC church and her scholars. The OT proof for purgatory given by the RC church is in the book of macabees which is not recognised by mainstream protestant churches.
What gives them the right to decide what is in the Bible and what is it not?
There is also Scriputre reference to the Gospel of Matthew.And you forget something, its not only the RC when you talk about the Catholic Church. The Eastern Rite Catholics also believe in purgatory so it cannot be an invention of the RC as you imply. Furthermore you say we are the ones who misconstrue, is it possible your interprentation is misconstrued? And its not only the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church also believes in purgatory.
This why I said, some people still don't know what purgatory is. In purgatory you cannot do anything.Its God who purges the soul until it has repneted of all sins and is fit to enter into His holy presence.
4. By saying that you need purgatory, you are saying that Yeshua's work on the cross is not enough to give you full access into your salvation and that you must "work" some more. This then makes YHWH and Yeshua liars which we know that they are not, so therefore the conclusion here is that purgatory is heresy, it undermines the whole message of Yeshua.
Your repeating yourself,without Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, no one would even be able to enter purgatory.
5. The doctrine is in itself flawed because it supposes that we though our own works on earth can earn "brownie points" for our salvation and entry into eternal happiness, and that should someone not earn enough points here on earth, he can continue to undertake this task in purgatory. This again is contradictory to Yeshua's teaching and it makes Yeshua's sacrifice on the cross of no effect because it does not have the fullness of the forgiveness of sins that is promised by YHWH and Yeshua.
The reason being the robber recognised Christ as the his saviour and recoginized he still was a sinner with sins unrepented for By doing so he repeneted for all his sins the moment he said "Lord remember me when..."
6. The doctrine here namely relates to temporal sins which are not paid for, then I ask the question, why then when Yeshua was hanging on the cross with a robber to his right and left did He say to one of them truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise? if this is taken in its proper context, the robber who supposed still had some sin left and not paid for would be with Yeshua in paradise, that very day, it does not speak about today you will go to purgatory and then after a while you will be with me in paradise, it says TODAY you WILL be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” :
Souls who have repented fully of all sins will go to hevean straight. There are some souls(few) who have managed to be truly sorry for every single sin and repented because of that they do not need to enter purgatory. -
HiOriginally posted by plo30360:In other words your tryin to imply that we don't follow the Pualine verese "For, the wages of sin is death"
You know when you read something you should read it entirely. If you notice the article also states this:
On the other hand whosoever comes into God's presence must be perfectly pure for in the strictest sense His "eyes are too pure, to behold evil" (Habakkuk 1:13). For unrepented venial faults for the payment of temporal punishment due to sin at time of death, the Church has always taught the doctrine of purgatory.
This includes all sins not just major sins as you hav implied.
ok, lets look at this verse, yes the wages of Sin is death, but what you quoted here is only half a verse and not the entire statement
Roman 6: 22-23
22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.
here Paul is making a distinction between a believer and a non believer, Now (once a believer accepted salvation through Christ),
1) we are no longer slaves to sin by slaves to God,
2) the benefits that comes with this, is Holiness resulting in having Eternal Life.
Now here is the verse being quote.
The wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
the verse here is contrasting between the wages of sin bringing death (something we all deserved) and the gift of God (what we received from God through Christ Jesus, which is eternal life) -
Hebrew 10:15-23Originally posted by Honeybunz:" All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified. after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
Catholic and Orthodox Christians believe in purgatory, a temporary place of punishment for Christians who have died with unconfessed sins.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."[b] 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more."[c] 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
Some may not like this, but by saying all who die in God's grace and friendship (I am assuming these have salvation in Christ) can still be imperfectly purified.
Its equalvalent to saying
1) God is a liar, because God says Their Sins and lawless acts I remember no more, (when God say no more, I believe He really means no more.)
2) The Holy Spirit whos testified this, is giving a false testmonties
3) Reducing the perfect sacrifice of Christ to that of bulls and goats which cannot perfectly purify the people.
What do any christians says of such statements that totally contradict the character of God, Holy Spirit and Christ? -
I did so because brey was trying to imply Catholics make a distinction between sins in terms of their punishment and this from Catholic pov is simply not true
Hi
ok, lets look at this verse, yes the wages of Sin is death, but what you quoted here is only half a verse and not the entire statement -
I am just saying not good to quote half statements, its better if we can quote the whole statement instead.Originally posted by plo30360:I did so because brey was trying to imply Catholics make a distinction between sins in terms of their punishment and this from Catholic pov is simply not true
Thanks -
Justification and purification are 2 different things. By Christ's death and rising we are justified.
Some may not like this, but by saying all who die in God's grace and friendship (I am assuming these have salvation in Christ) can still be imperfectly purified.
Its equalvalent to saying
1) God is a liar, because God says Their Sins and lawless acts I remember no more, (when God say no more, I believe He really means no more.)
2) The Holy Spirit whos testified this, is giving a false testmonties
3) Reducing the perfect sacrifice of Christ to that of bulls and goats which cannot perfectly purify the people.
True God does not remember our sins, when He forgives them. But in order to obtain forgiveness, in the 1st place we must acknowledge that we have sinned and require forgiveness for those sins. We can't do that, if we don't repent of all sins
I hope our reformed Christians understand this. What Christ did on the Cross was to free us from the wages of sins which could not have been done by our own merit. Thus, we became justified.
But purification is another matter, we become purified when we respond to the salvation which was bought for us at such a high price. And how do we respond to salvation which is offered?
Is it enough to say I'm saved and born again and therefore automatically I will not sin again, that I've repeneted of every single sin?
Christ has paid for our past,present and future sins. This is the truth. But to acept salvation one must first repent. -
Yes, it appears I'm guilty of doing the same thing I accused brey of doing. Pardon me for being lazy but I've always assumed reformed Christians memorized the Bible and would automatically complete the verse for me
I am just saying not good to quote half statements, its better if we can quote the whole statement instead.
Thanks Smile
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Originally posted by plo30360:
Purified, ok
Justification and purification are 2 different things. By Christ's death and rising we are [b]justified.
True God does not remember our sins, when He forgives them. But in order to obtain forgiveness, in the 1st place we must acknowledge that we have sinned and require forgiveness for those sins. We can't do that, if we don't repent of all sins
I hope our reformed Christians understand this. What Christ did on the Cross was to free us from the wages of sins which could not have been done by our own merit. Thus, we became justified.
But purification is another matter, we become purified when we respond to the salvation which was bought for us at such a high price. And how do we respond to salvation which is offered?
Is it enough to say I'm saved and born again and therefore automatically I will not sin again, that I've repeneted of every single sin?
Christ has paid for our past,present and future sins. This is the truth. But to acept salvation one must first repent.
[/b]
I peter 1:22-23
22Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
We are purified by obeying the truth, what is this truth?
1 peter 1:18-21
18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
The truth in regards to Christ perfection.
[b]Christ has paid for our past,present and future sins. This is the truth. But to acept salvation one must first repent.
not fully true, to accept salvation, one must accept the Christ's sacrifices, His death and resurrection, the payment Christ made for the peanlties of our sins.
Its not about what we do (yes, its has nothing to do with what we do), its 100% fully depends on what Christ did. To say we must first repent, is to say we start the initiatives, when Christ is the one who had taken the first step.
What is repentance? a change of mindset, to change from believing I can to I cannot, from believing its all about what I do, to everything that Christ had done.
Is this a free ticket to sin? absolutely not, contratary to this, a person who had truely saved, by the new nature would not want to commit sin, yes, we are still human, we fall, just like a child learning to walk, when we fall, learn to stand up and continue walking, knowing the loving hands of our Father will always be there to pick us up. -
not to worry about it, we make mistakes too.Originally posted by plo30360:Yes, it appears I'm guilty of doing the same thing I accused brey of doing. Pardon me for being lazy but I've always assumed reformed Christians memorized the Bible and would automatically complete the verse for me -
The passges that you've quoted deem that we are purified by obeying and recognizing the truth that is Christ.But, justification and purification are still 2 different things. By Christ we are justified, we are made pure when we obey Him and follow His teachings.
Purified, ok
I peter 1:22-23
22Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
We are purified by obeying the truth, what is this truth?
1 peter 1:18-21
18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
Again pardon me for being lazy, but I assumed that everyone here would understand its a given that one must respond to the grace of God(which in this case is Christ's redemptive act).
not fully true, to accept salvation, one must accept the Christ's sacrifices, His death and resurrection, the payment Christ made for the peanlties of our sins.
Its not about what we do (yes, its has nothing to do with what we do), its 100% fully depends on what Christ did. To say we must first repent, is to say we start the initiatives, when Christ is the one who had taken the first step.
I beg to differ on that repentence is not a proactive act, its is a reactive act in response to God's grace. -
Being made pure, have the notion of being wash clean, we are cleansed by His blood ie; make pure by His precious blood.Originally posted by plo30360:The passges that you've quoted deem that we are purified by obeying and recognizing the truth that is Christ.But, justification and purification are still 2 different things. By Christ we are justified, we are made pure when we obey Him and follow His teachings.
On this part regarding repentence being a reactive act in response to God's grace, I fully agree with you.Originally posted by plo30360:Again pardon me for being lazy, but I assumed that everyone here would understand its a given that one must respond to the grace of God(which in this case is Christ's redemptive act).
I beg to differ on that repentence is not a proactive act, its is a reactive act in response to God's grace. -
Christ's blood atones for us, washes away our sins yes. But is it possible to claim Christ's purifying blood without repentance? Or should I say can we accept Christ's blood without repentance?
Being made pure, have the notion of being wash clean, we are cleansed by His blood ie; make pure by His precious blood. -
perhaps i am interrupting..but you raised an interesting point.Originally posted by plo30360:Christ's blood atones for us, washes away our sins yes. But is it possible to claim Christ's purifying blood without repentance? Or should I say can we accept Christ's blood without repentance?
is it possible - that after accepting Christ as our Lord and thereby claiming His blood, that while we journey with God to know more about Him, that we come to know some of the actions/thoughts that we have in the past are actually not right with God ? And afterwhich repent ? I say this in the light of Discipleship.