An article on Purgatory
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Sorry no purgatory. It's either heaven or hell. Or no point preaching the gospel of Christ in this life time if one can still go to heaven by entering purgatory first. Bcos one can dont accept Jesus in this life time & then go purgatory to get to heaven. Heresy!Originally posted by SingaporeMacross: -
side note: when we die, we go heaven/hell direct....or await judgement first?
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so do you deny the catholic faith and their teaching?Originally posted by Repented John 2:Sorry no purgatory. It's either heaven or hell. Or no point preaching the gospel of Christ in this life time if one can still go to heaven by entering purgatory first. Bcos one can dont accept Jesus in this life time & then go purgatory to get to heaven. Heresy!
so what happen to the people who does not have the chance of hearing the gospel?
do they do to hell? -
I am not catholic & we dont follow traditions of men.Originally posted by Ito_^:so do you deny the catholic faith and their teaching?
so what happen to the people who does not have the chance of hearing the gospel?
do they do to hell?
God is fair. Either He will reach the person in some impossible way before he dies or He will judge accordingly & justly. -
Sorry no purgatory. It's either heaven or hell. Or no point preaching the gospel of Christ in this life time if one can still go to heaven by entering purgatory first. Bcos one can dont accept Jesus in this life time & then go purgatory to get to heaven. Heresy!
Did you read the entire article, its not even written by a Catholic. Purgatory is not to be mistaken as middle ground between heaven and hell.
And here's a question what happens if someone does not repent of all his sins, he still can go heaven meh? Worse still, if someone feels that sin is justified?
There's is one thing about the article I'll disagree though, the writer states, there's no mention of purgatory in Scripture, however this is not entirely true, just as how the concept of Trinity is implied, Scripture also implies purgatory. -
it is a fact that some people in remote parts of this world still are not being reached and died being that state.Originally posted by Repented John 2:I am not catholic & we dont follow traditions of men.
God is fair. Either He will reach the person in some impossible way before he dies or He will judge accordingly & justly. -
I think we go heaven or hell directly via our spirits & souls. Our body rests on earth. Then when Christ comes again, our body gets resurrected & reunites with our souls & spirits. But i think this not a good explanation. Anybody with better explanation?Originally posted by laoda99:side note: when we die, we go heaven/hell direct....or await judgement first? -
I am not catholic & we dont follow traditions of men.
Your understanding of what Catholics refer to as Tradition is rather shallow. -
If it's not, then what is it?Originally posted by plo30360:Did you read the entire article, its not even written by a Catholic. Purgatory is not to be mistaken as middle ground between heaven and hell.
And here's a question what happens if someone does not repent of all his sins, he still can go heaven meh? Worse still, if someone feels that sin is justified?
There's is one thing about the article I'll disagree though, the writer states, there's no mention of purgatory in Scripture, however this is not entirely true, just as how the concept of Trinity is implied, Scripture also implies purgatory.
I think he might go to hell unless you believe in once saved forever saved.
Maybe you can enlighten us on how purgatory is implied? Thanks. Just my humble opinion. -
Well God will be fair to them, but to those who heard there will be no excuse, even after thowing a smoke bomb like this one.Originally posted by Ito_^:it is a fact that some people in remote parts of this world still are not being reached and died being that state.
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mebbe unker chin eng or vince?Originally posted by Raptured:I think we go heaven or hell directly via our spirits & souls. Our body rests on earth. Then when Christ comes again, our body gets resurrected & reunites with our souls & spirits. But i think this not a good explanation. Anybody with better explanation?
this is a problem bugging me berry long liao.... -
Of course, i am not a catholic. We dont pass tradition as gospel or biblical doctrine.Originally posted by plo30360:Your understanding of what Catholics refer to as Tradition is rather shallow. -
very long 7 pages, need to read finished first, but I do find your notion that there are implications of purgatory existing in the Bible, and I think it will be good if you can show them to us, or point them out for us (not trying to be funny or what, just want to learn that's all, cause I really don't know much about purgatory)Originally posted by plo30360:Did you read the entire article, its not even written by a Catholic. Purgatory is not to be mistaken as middle ground between heaven and hell.
And here's a question what happens if someone does not repent of all his sins, he still can go heaven meh? Worse still, if someone feels that sin is justified?
There's is one thing about the article I'll disagree though, the writer states, there's no mention of purgatory in Scripture, however this is not entirely true, just as how the concept of Trinity is implied, Scripture also implies purgatory.
Thanks -
Purgatory is for souls who are bound for heaven but may not have repented of all their sins.This is a very crude explaination, I think Sgmacross can give a better one.
If it's not, then what is it?
I think he might go to hell unless you believe in once saved forever saved.
Maybe you can enlighten us on how purgatory is implied? Thanks. Just my humble opinion.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15:
"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."(Note, some translations have this line as purged by fire the last part)
In Origen the doctrine of purgatory is very clear. If a man depart this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. "For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Corinthians 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works."
taken from:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm -
Which is why I stated your view on what Catholic Tradition is shallow. I'm not saying this to offend, but I expected this view from non-Catholic Christians. What they think is the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Of course, i am not a catholic. We dont pass tradition as gospel or biblical doctrine.
As i've mentioned somewhere before the relationship between Tradition and Scripture for Catholics is interlinked. What do I mean? For example Tradition must never contradict Scripture. Tradition is derived from Scripture.
The Bible as we know it today is a product of Tradition. Anyway, lets not discuss this here, let's stick to purgatory.
If your really interested go the Catholic forum and post this topic there. -
Then you shall be damned! Because you failed to reach them!Originally posted by Repented John 2:God is fair. Either He will reach the person in some impossible way before he dies or He will judge accordingly & justly.
Just joking... -
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0058.htmlOriginally posted by Raptured:I think we go heaven or hell directly via our spirits & souls. Our body rests on earth. Then when Christ comes again, our body gets resurrected & reunites with our souls & spirits. But i think this not a good explanation. Anybody with better explanation?
This article will educate sufficiently.
Your explanation is not too bad anyway. -
this article may be useful for more information that the above do not state.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
this part is interesting.
"Modern Protestants, while they avoid the name purgatory, frequently teach the doctrine of "the middle state," and Martensen ("Christian Dogmatics," Edinburgh, 1890, p. 457) writes: "As no soul leaves this present existence in a fully complete and prepared state, we must suppose that there is an intermediate state, a realm of progressive development, (?) in which souls are prepared for the final judgment" (Farrar, "Mercy and Judgment," London, 1881, cap. iii)."
of cuz u can argue this is a catholic lie, or these "modern protestants" are in fact in the previous era..
anyways, i don't see why a christian should ignore the understanding of other denominations and even other religions.
is ignorance a sin? -
The issue is not whether there is a Purgatory. We can argue till the cows come home and still we have two sides of the story. My thinking is simple. God's salvation is free (although not cheap) and complete when HE died on the cross. And to me, if there is any kind of suggestion that tells me that I NEED TO DO SOMETHING or WORKS at any point of time before I receive my salvation, then I know it is wrong cos the BIBLE does not teach that. Salvation and the rewards we received in heaven are two issues. To imply we have to suffer to receive salavtion is wrong. if you say that our unconfessed sins would affect the rewards and judgement we receievd in heaven, I may be able to accept that.
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The issue is not whether there is a Purgatory. We can argue till the cows come home and still we have two sides of the story. My thinking is simple. God's salvation is free (although not cheap) and complete when HE died on the cross. And to me, if there is any kind of suggestion that tells me that I NEED TO DO SOMETHING or WORKS at any point of time before I receive my salvation, then I know it is wrong cos the BIBLE does not teach that. Salvation and the rewards we received in heaven are two issues. To imply we have to suffer to receive salavtion is wrong.
Purgatory has nothing do with salvation, as I've stated its meant for souls who are bound for heaven but have not repented of all sins.Again this is a very crude explaination, sgmarcross will be better able to explain
Well, you sort of grasped the concept, but not entirely. Let's see, Scripture says God is is holy and therefore nothing defiled by sin can be in God's presence. Since, there are many people who may have trusted in the Lord for salvation and repented all but their minor sins(they may even feel that they are justified for these sins and no need to repent for them), they need to be purged even of these.(Again, I think there's a better way of explaining can be provided)
if you say that our unconfessed sins would affect the rewards and judgement we receievd in heaven, I may be able to accept that.
I read somewhere, that reformed Christians do away with purgatory, by stating that at the moment of death, God cleanses them of even the minor sins(even if they not repent of them, repentence being one of the condition upon which the sacrifice on the cross was given), hence they go to heaven straight. Reformed Christians is this true? -
So people who are bound for heaven are people who confessed that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Saviour and prayed to receive the gift of salvation rite? Ok if they did so, they have salvation and will not lose it becos that salvation is complete. They will go to heaven based on God's works not what we can do.
So tell me, what is the purpose of this PURGATORY? -
The condition for accepting salvation is repentence of all sins.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
Scripture says God is is holy and therefore nothing defiled by sin can be in God's presence. Since, there are many people who may have trusted in the Lord for salvation and repented all but their minor sins(they may even feel that they are justified for these sins and no need to repent for them), they need to be purged even of these.(Again, I think there's a better way of explaining can be provided)
And I rec.ommend reading the info in the above url. People are still confusing purgatory, with other things. -
Originally posted by plo30360:
Again, I disagree with that. BELIEVING is the only CRITERIA for SALAVTION. THE BIBLE CLEARLY STATES THAT. There is no other CRITERIA to SALVATION except for the CONFESSION of YOUR BELIEF in CHRIST and HIS WORK ON THE CROSS. When we accepted CHRIST, we accepted His forgiveness of all our sins.
The condition for accepting salvation [b]is repentence of all sins.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
And I rec.ommend reading the info in the above url. People are still confusing purgatory, with other things.[/b]
Having said that, I also agree that MEN need to repent of all their sins and bear spiritual fruit in their lives. BUT. REPENTANCE OF SINS and BEARING OF FRUITS is a RESULT of TRUE SALAVTION not a CRITERIA of SALVATION. People who are truly saved and love God and is filled with the Holy Spirit will WANT to repent of their sins and bear fruit in their lives and will do so as the SPIRIT leads them. To suggest that there is something we need to do before we can receive salvation is an insult to the work of God on the cross.
Going to a place like Purgatory to be cleansed? Tell me, how do you measure repentance? If a persistent liar stop lying for 10 minutes in the Purgatory, he will receive his or her salvation? When would a person be deemed fit to leave the PURGATORY to receive his or her salvation?
And also you mentioned people who may not think that their sins are sins need to be go to the Purgatory to be PURGED of their sins. So what now? The PURGATORY is a place where these people are forced to repent of their sins? And so just because they are PURGED of all sins, whether they think they have done wrong or not do not matter? So in heaven I will see people who will say, Hey I dun think I have sinned by telling a white lie to my frens but then since I went to the PURGATORY and they have purged my sin anyway, so here I am...who cares?
Believe in the PURGATORY or whatever you all can call it all you want, I believe in the complete work of CHRIST and I will go to heaven to see Him no matter what. And only then will CHRIST judged me on how I live my life and reward me accordingly. -
Actually for salvation: it is up to God's mercy.The only reason you believe is because of the grace given to you by God to have faith.
Again, I disagree with that. BELIEVING is the only CRITERIA for SALAVTION. THE BIBLE CLEARLY STATES THAT. There is no other CRITERIA to SALVATION except for the CONFESSION of YOUR BELIEF in CHRIST and HIS WORK ON THE CROSS. When we accepted CHRIST, we accepted His forgiveness of all our sins.
Again, you are confusing purgatory for something else. Purgatory is for souls that are already saved. Btw in purgatory your not doing anything, its things getting done to you.
Having said that, I also agree that MEN need to repent of all their sins and bear spiritual fruit in their lives. BUT. REPENTANCE OF SINS and BEARING OF FRUITS is a RESULT of TRUE SALAVTION not a CRITERIA of SALVATION. People who are truly saved and love God and is filled with the Holy Spirit will WANT to repent of their sins and bear fruit in their lives and will do so as the SPIRIT leads them. To suggest that there is something we need to do before we can receive salvation is an insult to the work of God on the cross.
And once more its is not possible for a human to repent of every single sin.
Why?
He may think certain sins are justified.He may not know something is a sin. Both these reason do not allow a man to enter God's presence because God is holy and cannot be with something that's tainted with sin. In order to acept the salvation of Christ one must repent of all sins.
This goes to show you did not read that url. Kindly read that before we continue.
Going to a place like Purgatory to be cleansed? Tell me, how do you measure repentance? If a persistent liar stop lying for 10 minutes in the Purgatory, he will receive his or her salvation? When would a person be deemed fit to leave the PURGATORY to receive his or her salvation?
And also you mentioned people who may not think that their sins are sins need to be go to the Purgatory to be PURGED of their sins. So what now? The PURGATORY is a place where these people are forced to repent of their sins? And so just because they are PURGED of all sins, whether they think they have done wrong or not do not matter? So in heaven I will see people who will say, Hey I dun think I have sinned by telling a white lie to my frens but then since I went to the PURGATORY and they have purged my sin anyway, so here I am...who cares?