I am not ashamed to say I am a Christian.....
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notice each of your classification, they can be narrowed down to believers.Originally posted by laoda99:Since u are able to classified christians according to different class/categories, I am sure believers can also be classified:
1) "Believers" who dun go church for fellowship. Shameful isn't it?
2) "Believers" who take some theology from Christianity/some from Judaism
Shameful isn't it?
3) "Believers" who are quite lost whether they are under grace or under the law. Shameful isn't it?
4) "Believers" who claim they leave church becoz of persecution/loss of faith. Shameful isn't it?
5) "Believers" who think they are spiritually higher than Christians. Shameful isn't it?
6) "Believers" who have an axe to grind with Christians. Shameful isn't it?
7) "Believers" who like to view fire from the fences when Christians are being attacked, sometimes adding more fire on their own. Shameful isn't it?
"Believers" who are disappointed but genuinely want improvements made among Christians and they take a proactive approach to it and not distance themselves from Christians. This is the category/class of "believers" whom I genuinely admired.
and so on so forth
Quite interested to know how u classified urself among the "believers". Have u woke up already like the Christians whom u challenged them to?
you get 49 out of 100 or 0 out of 100, is still a failing grade in Singapore -
laoda, you make too many assumptions.Originally posted by laoda99:Since u are able to classified christians according to different class/categories, I am sure believers can also be classified:
1) "Believers" who dun go church for fellowship. Shameful isn't it?
2) "Believers" who take some theology from Christianity/some from Judaism
Shameful isn't it?
3) "Believers" who are quite lost whether they are under grace or under the law. Shameful isn't it?
4) "Believers" who claim they leave church becoz of persecution/loss of faith. Shameful isn't it?
5) "Believers" who think they are spiritually higher than Christians. Shameful isn't it?
6) "Believers" who have an axe to grind with Christians. Shameful isn't it?
7) "Believers" who like to view fire from the fences when Christians are being attacked, sometimes adding more fire on their own. Shameful isn't it? "Believers" who are disappointed but genuinely want improvements made among Christians and they take a proactive approach to it and not distance themselves from Christians. This is the category/class of "believers" whom I genuinely admired.
and so on so forth
Quite interested to know how u classified urself among the "believers". Have u woke up already like the Christians whom u challenged them to?
1) how do you know these believers do not fellowship?
2) actually all theology started from the OT, which espoused judaism. What Jesus taught was an expansion of the ten commandments, nothing more, nothing less. The important thing is that God Himself again, fulfilled the covenant between us and Himself.
3) actually many understand that we are under grace and are saved by grace but still have to keep the commandments, there is no confusion nor is there any inconsistency or contradiction. We have gone through this....
4) actually, no, sometimes christians can be very vindictive, so who is more shameful??? they forget the commandment, Love thy neighbour...
5) you are over generalising here, but that said, just by what you posted, you give the impression that you already think you are spiritually higher than "believers" now isn't that shameful??
6) i think you take things too personally as do all of us at times. we are not grinding axes, but we are asked to sharpen one another....
7) you observe the situation and assess first then make a move, it never pays to be hasty... you might make the wrong move?
8 ) all this according to who? your ideology and your way of how things should be? it can already been seen from the numerous posts and various topics in this forum, that there is a variety of opinion. -
some people have to realise that not everyone is able to be an extremely devoted and perfect christian. what is perfect anyway? as easy as it sounds, a christian is one who believes in god. please correct me if i am wrong.
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You need to be ashamed because you choose to belive in something that is in the realm of fantasy. That you need to believe in fantasy. You see, normal inteliigent healthy people live in reality; they face reality and take what reality has to offer with all its sadness and suffering and joy.Originally posted by pierre^^:huh why the need for the use of ashamed word? i m a buddism so if ppl ask me wat religion i m , i jus tell the truth lor. my frens are christian they also say so ma. Except i cant STAND those ppl hor, who will try all sort of methods ask u join their religion, giving carrots and promptly to degrade ur religion say what only ur god is supreme. Hello Pls respect each other religion ok. If u are these kind of ppl, u should be ashamed of urself and be glad Singaporeans are tolerant of ur stupid behavior. If u r in other state, i think ppl will prob clobber u. -
I thought the definitions are clear. 'Christians' are 'followers of Christ'; 'Believers' are 'those who believe'. Among people who go to church, believers are taken as those who believe in Christianity; if you are in a Buddhist temple, 'believers' refers to those who believe in Buddhism. "believers" does not necessarily mean those who believe in Christianity?? Why become so complicated???Originally posted by laoda99:Since u are able to classified christians according to different class/categories, I am sure believers can also be classified:
1) "Believers" who dun go church for fellowship. Shameful isn't it?
2) "Believers" who take some theology from Christianity/some from Judaism
Shameful isn't it?
3) "Believers" who are quite lost whether they are under grace or under the law. Shameful isn't it?
4) "Believers" who claim they leave church becoz of persecution/loss of faith. Shameful isn't it?
5) "Believers" who think they are spiritually higher than Christians. Shameful isn't it?
6) "Believers" who have an axe to grind with Christians. Shameful isn't it?
7) "Believers" who like to view fire from the fences when Christians are being attacked, sometimes adding more fire on their own. Shameful isn't it? "Believers" who are disappointed but genuinely want improvements made among Christians and they take a proactive approach to it and not distance themselves from Christians. This is the category/class of "believers" whom I genuinely admired.
and so on so forth
Quite interested to know how u classified urself among the "believers". Have u woke up already like the Christians whom u challenged them to?
The way you started the thread, you have assumed that confessing to be a Chrisitan is something shameful. Is there anything to be ashamed of? What have you done? Are you proud to be a Chrisitian??? simply because you are now among the "elite" ???
What is the purpose of this thread?? really to improve the rating? -
i am not ashamed to say that i am no longer one.
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laoda, you make too many assumptions.
1) how do you know these believers do not fellowship?
Ans: How do they fellowshop when they do not go church?
2) actually all theology started from the OT, which espoused judaism. What Jesus taught was an expansion of the ten commandments, nothing more, nothing less. The important thing is that God Himself again, fulfilled the covenant between us and Himself.
Ans: Agree. that theology started from the OT. But the purpose of the NT is more than an expansion of the ten commandments.
3) actually many understand that we are under grace and are saved by grace but still have to keep the commandments, there is no confusion nor is there any inconsistency or contradiction. We have gone through this....
Ans: Yes we have gone thru all that. But the main focus should still be about grace. Commandments are not the main focus.
4) actually, no, sometimes christians can be very vindictive, so who is more shameful??? they forget the commandment, Love thy neighbour...
Ans: Christians are only human. Sometimes We get emotional and there is a lack of love for the pple around us. But as u have said, by the grace of god we will be able to follow his commandments.
5) you are over generalising here, but that said, just by what you posted, you give the impression that you already think you are spiritually higher than "believers" now isn't that shameful??
Ans: Being a Christian, I am the worst of the sinners who spiritually need Christ, how can I be spirtually higher than "believers" who insist Christians are going the wrong path by e.g. profess their faith or celebrate Christian festivals such as Easter and Good Friday?
6) i think you take things too personally as do all of us at times. we are not grinding axes, but we are asked to sharpen one another....
Ans: I do not really like sharpening sometimes, it is not edifying.
7) you observe the situation and assess first then make a move, it never pays to be hasty... you might make the wrong move?
Ans: Probably, but so do some of the "believers" here. They are the ones who draw a distinction between Christians and "believers". Look at the previous threads.
8 ) all this according to who? your ideology and your way of how things should be? it can already been seen from the numerous posts and various topics in this forum, that there is a variety of opinion.
Ans: Variety of opinion is impt, but if anything is written to undermine the Christian faith or cause confusion what Christianity is all about, a respond from Christians is needed. -
I think i should try one last time to reply to Laoda's offensive post.
Laoda, do you notice that my post is referring to God and men themselves only? Not by what men do or say or read or think.
Your refute to me means nothing when you don't place God in the picture, it's all about men and their doings.
You can even replace the word 'believers to Christians' it's the same.
Simply because, all men are falliable.
Note that they are not unholy or ungodly, but men (coverts or not) - are falliable.
Like i've mentioned that it's not about what men do, say, think, read...
It should question the inner most core of Christianity.
What is God, Jesus and Holy is to you.
How much does HE matter in your life.
Is HE your life, breath and everything? Is HE Your World?
Why are you here?
Are you happy that you're alive or would you rather you've never been created/born into this world?
When each Christians come to the end of themselves. They'll begin to face the core questions.
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What difference does it make when a christian says he's a christian and a believer who loves God and always look to God?
It's the same, it's personal...
It is not always about what you do or think....
All in all. It's how you see your Lord, how you've made HIS day, how you've made Him smile.Originally posted by M©+square:Men's personal belief onto Lord Jesus Christ is more important than whenever he profess himself as Christian or not.
Professing Christians......wake up from the slumber and worship the real God you professing Christians spoke about. Show forth the power of the Holy Spirit and be worthy of being a Christian.Originally posted by M©+square:My post didn't mention about non believers or unbelief as well.
My post was directed very specifically at the relationship between God and Men/believers per say.Originally posted by laoda99:Since u are able to classified christians according to different class/categories, I am sure believers can also be classified:
1) "Believers" who dun go church for fellowship. Shameful isn't it?
2) "Believers" who take some theology from Christianity/some from Judaism
Shameful isn't it?
3) "Believers" who are quite lost whether they are under grace or under the law. Shameful isn't it?
4) "Believers" who claim they leave church becoz of persecution/loss of faith. Shameful isn't it?
5) "Believers" who think they are spiritually higher than Christians. Shameful isn't it?
6) "Believers" who have an axe to grind with Christians. Shameful isn't it?
7) "Believers" who like to view fire from the fences when Christians are being attacked, sometimes adding more fire on their own. Shameful isn't it? "Believers" who are disappointed but genuinely want improvements made among Christians and they take a proactive approach to it and not distance themselves from Christians. This is the category/class of "believers" whom I genuinely admired.
and so on so forth
Quite interested to know how u classified urself among the "believers". Have u woke up already like the Christians whom u challenged them to? -
Originally posted by laoda99:
Ans: How do they fellowshop when they do not go church?
Do you need to go to church to fellowship?BTW, what is fellowshop?
Ans: Agree. that theology started from the OT. But the purpose of the NT is more than an expansion of the ten commandments.
The purpose of the NT is how so more than the expansion of the commandments? In Yeshua our Lord and saviour is the fulfilment of the commandments. And it states that to Love God is to Keep His commandments. That is all it is about. Grace for salvation and keeping what is important to God. It still boils down to keeping the commandments, even Yeshua said, love the Lord thy God and love thy neighbour as yourself. It is about God fulfilling by Himself His own requirements He has set for us for eternal life. It is about God's plan to save the world, by blinding for a season the true vine. But make no mistake, He has not forsaken them.
Ans: Yes we have gone thru all that. But the main focus should still be about grace. Commandments are not the main focus.
Actually I disagree with you on that. Whilst grace is important, the church today does not stress enough about keeping the commandments of God (not as works for salvation) to the effect that we now have a problem of "cheap grace" . If the new believers do not understand about keeping what is important to God, how can they then have a clear picture of who God is? God is the same from the OT till today. So if we profess to be Christians, then we must have that understanding of who GOD is. How do we do that except to know His commandments and to keep them.
Ans: Being a Christian, I am the worst of the sinners who spiritually need Christ, how can I be spirtually higher than "believers" who insist Christians are going the wrong path by e.g. profess their faith or celebrate Christian festivals such as Easter and Good Friday?
on this one, what does God want you to do here in regards to these festivals? Do you know the Fathers heart? There are many who believe in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit that do not celebrate these festivals.
Ans: I do not really like sharpening sometimes, it is not edifying.
Then why are we asked to do so? Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Ans: Variety of opinion is impt, but if anything is written to undermine the Christian faith or cause confusion what Christianity is all about, a respond from Christians is needed.
The question here returns to what is the Christian faith about? MC has said it very well, the core of our faith is to KNOW THE FATHERS HEART and what He wants from us. -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:
Originally posted by laoda99:
[b]Ans: How do they fellowshop when they do not go church?
Do you need to go to church to fellowship?BTW, what is fellowshop?
Ans: I do know what is a fellowshop, but I do not going to church is for fellowship.
Ans: Agree. that theology started from the OT. But the purpose of the NT is more than an expansion of the ten commandments.
The purpose of the NT is how so more than the expansion of the commandments? In Yeshua our Lord and saviour is the fulfilment of the commandments. And it states that to Love God is to Keep His commandments. That is all it is about. Grace for salvation and keeping what is important to God. It still boils down to keeping the commandments, even Yeshua said, love the Lord thy God and love thy neighbour as yourself. It is about God fulfilling by Himself His own requirements He has set for us for eternal life. It is about God's plan to save the world, by blinding for a season the true vine. But make no mistake, He has not forsaken them.
The purpose of the NT is so much more than the expansion of the commandments. It is God's ultimate plan for salvation for mankind. Keeping the two basic commands by Christ is something we do to show that we love god, not becoz Christ is a task master who insist we must keep all the laws to earn his love. We can do nothing more to earn his love, and nothing less.
Ans: Yes we have gone thru all that. But the main focus should still be about grace. Commandments are not the main focus.
Actually I disagree with you on that. Whilst grace is important, the church today does not stress enough about keeping the commandments of God (not as works for salvation) to the effect that we now have a problem of "cheap grace" . If the new believers do not understand about keeping what is important to God, how can they then have a clear picture of who God is? God is the same from the OT till today. So if we profess to be Christians, then we must have that understanding of who GOD is. How do we do that except to know His commandments and to keep them.
Admittedly, "Cheap" grace is a problem especially in modern mega churches, but asking christians to keep the law so that grace won't appear so "cheap" is not a solution. It means reverting back to the OT (to me it is like telling god I dun need your grace, give me the law will do).
Ans: Being a Christian, I am the worst of the sinners who spiritually need Christ, how can I be spirtually higher than "believers" who insist Christians are going the wrong path by e.g. profess their faith or celebrate Christian festivals such as Easter and Good Friday?
on this one, what does God want you to do here in regards to these festivals? Do you know the Fathers heart? There are many who believe in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit that do not celebrate these festivals.
And there are many who do celebrate these festivals. Do you know the Fathers heart? I am still learning.
Ans: I do not really like sharpening sometimes, it is not edifying.
Ans: Variety of opinion is impt, but if anything is written to undermine the Christian faith or cause confusion what Christianity is all about, a respond from Christians is needed.
The question here returns to what is the Christian faith about? MC has said it very well, the core of our faith is to KNOW THE FATHERS HEART and what He wants from us.[/b]
For me, he wants us to stop following the law and just to rest in his grace. -
you rest in His grace, but then what? As christians, we need to know how to live our lives after we are saved, where do you find those guidelines? The commandments. It appears to me that you still do not get this issue. *sighhhhhhhhh........*Originally posted by laoda99:
For me, he wants us to stop following the law and just to rest in his grace.
it is not about following the law, it is about keeping it. or are you denying that Jesus never said to do so? Are you saying paul did not say so as well? How do you then reconcile those verses as they are clearlyl stated in the NT? -
Actually Gods plan of salvation for the gentiles dates back to the OT, it is already mentioned that He had a plan to save the gentiles. See Amos 9:12.Originally posted by laoda99:
[color=blue]The purpose of the NT is so much more than the expansion of the commandments. It is God's ultimate plan for salvation for mankind. Keeping the two basic commands by Christ is something we do to show that we love god, not becoz Christ is a task master who insist we must keep all the laws to earn his love. We can do nothing more to earn his love, and nothing less. color]
And when did I ever say that keeping the commandments are to earn His love? If you read through all of my posts on this topic, i have always said that we keep the commandments BECAUSE we love HIM. -
does this mean u can sin as much as u want and heaven is guarenteed? Or does this mean u have a chance to be pardoned by God on judgement day?Originally posted by :I am a Christian who follow Christ.
My salvation is guaranteed by Christ's perfect work on the cross and my sins, past, present, future is forgiven.
see some Xtians think as long as they are believers they get 100% guarenteed automatic salvation.
but isn't the actual belief more like, u get a CHANCE of being pardoned if u believe, and that this pardon is not 100% guarenteed?
an anaolgy would be like non-believer has no chance of a "parole hearing" at all, while a believer has a "parole hearing" but might not make "parole"? -
Do you not understand that not just the NT applies to us, but the whole of the bible? Keeping the commandments does not mean that we revert back to the OT, it is clear to me that you do not have the understanding of just how important the commandments are. Grace is only have the story. Where do you go after that? How do you live your life? What is your guide? Jesus says we are to abide in His word, what do you think that means?Originally posted by laoda99:
[color=blue]Admittedly, "Cheap" grace is a problem especially in modern mega churches, but asking christians to keep the law so that grace won't appear so "cheap" is not a solution. It means reverting back to the OT (to me it is like telling god I dun need your grace, give me the law will do). color]
John 8:31
[ The Truth Shall Make You Free ] Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. -
if you know and understand our God, our Father, the God of the OT and the NT and if you understand His great jealousy and displeasure over idol worship and all things associated with idols etc.. , you will begin to have an idea about how our Father would feel about these festivals. Like I said before to SGmacross, celebrating the ressurection of Christ is well and good, but please do not associate it with easter, which celebrates something totally different.Originally posted by laoda99:
[color=blue]And there are many who do celebrate these festivals. Do you know the Fathers heart?color] -
Jesus is not a task master. He says:"Come to me, those who are weary, and I will give u rest." He never say:" Come to me, and follow all the commandments until u are very tired"Originally posted by breytonhartge:you rest in His grace, but then what? As christians, we need to know how to live our lives after we are saved, where do you find those guidelines? The commandments. It appears to me that you still do not get this issue. *sighhhhhhhhh........*
it is not about following the law, it is about keeping it. or are you denying that Jesus never said to do so? Are you saying paul did not say so as well? How do you then reconcile those verses as they are clearlyl stated in the NT?
How do u recouncil those verses which I have quoted in my other threads? If it is a MUST that we should follow all the commandments, then there is no need for Christ to come. We can still be saved by following all the commandments. -
I'm not trying to be funny or what.
But goodness, still revolving around Commandment and Grace.
Every thread must have this issue then shiok. -
No...it is said in the bible that this does not give us a free license to sin, as seen in: Romans 6:1. This has been discussed many times in EH.Originally posted by HENG@:does this mean u can sin as much as u want and heaven is guarenteed? Or does this mean u have a chance to be pardoned by God on judgement day?
see some Xtians think as long as they are believers they get 100% guarenteed automatic salvation.
but isn't the actual belief more like, u get a CHANCE of being pardoned if u believe, and that this pardon is not 100% guarenteed?
an anaolgy would be like non-believer has no chance of a "parole hearing" at all, while a believer has a "parole hearing" but might not make "parole"?
"1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer?
3 Or don't you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
The actual belief, whether u believe or not, are guaranteed 100% salvation if u believe in Christ.
If we do not believe we are saved, then our preaching to non-christians would be in vain.
How can we preach to non-christians that they are saved if we ourselves dun believe that we are saved by Christ?
Unbelievers are given a chance to know God. One thing to note: u can turn away from God, but he will never forsake u. -
If there is a spectrum of belief, it would be like this:
Stereotypical Jews ---------- Brey ------------- Laoda
Brey like having the best of both world, 'cos he has grace and commandments. -
I am really tired arguing with u. I am going to rest in God's grace and be a better Christian by reading the bible more.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Do you not understand that not just the NT applies to us, but the whole of the bible? Keeping the commandments does not mean that we revert back to the OT, it is clear to me that you do not have the understanding of just how important the commandments are. Grace is only have the story. Where do you go after that? How do you live your life? What is your guide? Jesus says we are to abide in His word, what do you think that means?
John 8:31
[ The Truth Shall Make You Free ] Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. -
He is confused....I think he ought to be a messanic jew rather than a Christian.Originally posted by Icemoon:If there is a spectrum of belief, it would be like this:
Stereotypical Jews ---------- Brey ------------- Laoda
Brey like having the best of both world, 'cos he has grace and commandments. -
If they can do this until end of month .. then we confirm *trounce* our neighbour.Originally posted by M©+square:I'm not trying to be funny or what.
But goodness, still revolving around Commandment and Grace.
Every thread must have this issue then shiok.
Laoda is a godsend. last time it was mostly his credit EH got a 50+ rating right? -
Originally posted by Icemoon:If they can do this until end of month .. then we confirm *trounce* our neighbour.
Laoda is a godsend. last time it was mostly his credit EH got a 50+ rating right?
You're hopeless. -
Originally posted by M©+square:I'm not trying to be funny or what.
But goodness, still revolving around Commandment and Grace.
Every thread must have this issue then shiok.
Because the members here have not come to a consensus. -
Originally posted by M©+square:
You're hopeless.