Righteousness through faith
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There are 2 processes at work; the first is you read.... the reading is not for "understanding" like you understand science and maths and so on.Originally posted by laurence82:Dont know, but some of the early Christians, now 'outlawed' or labelled 'heretical' were not believers in the Holy Trinity concept, coz it implies a pantheon of gods, not a single god
Interestingly, not saying its wrong or right, Gospel of Judas also stated that jesus were laughing at the aspostles when they were praying at the last supper, which is held during the passover festival, because they were praying to the god who created this world, not the really the god who created the universe or heavens, something like that
The reading is for you to have Faith. Faith does not come from understanding.
After you have faith, you read again and you realise that what you understood when you read the first time round is not what it is. You can also not go back and read it. Whatever for; the purpose of reading was never to understand it in the first place.
So you see Abraham did not have the Bible did he? Jesus took the old testament and in a sense, threw it in the face of the religious leaders.
What Christians need is not to understand Jesus or Abraham or what the Bible says. What Christians need is the Faith that Jesus and Abraham had. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
Only the part in red makes sense.
[b]There are 2 processes at work; the first is you read.... the reading is not for "understanding" like you understand science and maths and so on.
The reading is for you to have Faith. Faith does not come from understanding.
After you have faith, you read again and you realise that what you understood when you read the first time round is not what it is. You can also not go back and read it. Whatever for; the purpose of reading was never to understand it in the first place.
So you see Abraham did not have the Bible did he? Jesus took the old testament and in a sense, threw it in the face of the religious leaders.
What Christians need is not to understand Jesus or Abraham or what the Bible says. What Christians need is the Faith that Jesus and Abraham had -
And...so?
Now you know its about faith, so still wanna question if there is such a person called Mr Jesus of Nazareth? -
Yeah, but I think Gnostics are completely off, even the marcionites (though they also believe in a demiurge) draw themselves away from them.....even though some theologians put them together.Originally posted by laurence82:i dont know, the books is not with me now, but I remember there were numerous different denominations like Monarchianists and Gnostics before they were labelled heretics -
There is no evidence of that. It does not depend on evidence that Jesus is the Son of God or walked on water or died and rose the 3rd day? All that was for you to have Faith in God. Not understand that you must have faith in God.Originally posted by laurence82:And...so?
Now you know its about faith, so still wanna question if there is such a person called Mr Jesus of Nazareth?
If you have it you will know it. This is the whole point of the debate. It is not to help you understand anything. It is simple, do you have faith in God? Nothing more, nothing less. -
I think I am as dumb as u, I dun understand what u write here.....i dun think anyone of us here have it like u.....Originally posted by casino_king:There is no evidence of that. It does not depend on evidence that Jesus is the Son of God or walked on water or died and rose the 3rd day? All that was for you to have Faith in God. Not understand that you must have faith in God.
If you have it you will know it. This is the whole point of the debate. It is not to help you understand anything. It is simple, do you have faith in God? Nothing more, nothing less. -
laoda, u can now proceed to stab me with a knife
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ok..stabbed!!!Originally posted by laurence82:laoda, u can now proceed to stab me with a knife
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Matthew 7:7-8 - Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Just know that you are not seeking understanding. You are not seeking knowledge. You are not seeking evidence. -
Hmm...interesting
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Hmm... it seems, C.K. that you are suggesting pure Fideism as a model of approaching the Christian faith proper, which is while it has its merits in the sheer pratice, it certainly does not hold true as an answer for determining what path to take in the first place.
To get to a belief in, one needs to first have a belief that. I do not for a moment imagine that the 'belief that' can be achieved without reason, for that suggests no truth claim whatsoever. To first trust into the unknown you have to start from a known point.
Anyway I am not convinced that Christianity is the best system for making this world a less painful, and better place. If I had to choose a system it would be Buddhism, and you can subscribe to Buddhist values without having to buy all this unnecessary nonsense about some notion of an infinite God becoming incarnate and having to do some weird stuff like dying on some cross for the sins of men. All this would be claptrap and unnecessary rubbish to bother with if simply being better was my concern.
If there is a system that is for making this world more agreeable then us and is interested in preserving and improving the status quo, then Christianity would not be it.
That would be of course, if that was our primary concern. -
That initial belief, is that the be all and end all? That is only an introduction to the possibilities. Most people stop there.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Hmm... it seems, C.K. that you are suggesting pure Fideism as a model of approaching the Christian faith proper, which is while it has its merits in the sheer pratice, it certainly does not hold true as an answer for determining what path to take in the first place.
To get to a belief in, one needs to first have a belief that. I do not for a moment imagine that the 'belief that' can be achieved without reason, for that suggests no truth claim whatsoever. To first trust into the unknown you have to start from a known point.
Anyway I am not convinced that Christianity is the best system for making this world a less painful, and better place. If I had to choose a system it would be Buddhism, and you can subscribe to Buddhist values without having to buy all this unnecessary nonsense about some notion of an infinite God becoming incarnate and having to do some weird stuff like dying on some cross for the sins of men. All this would be claptrap and unnecessary rubbish to bother with if simply being better was my concern.
If there is a system that is for making this world more agreeable then us and is interested in preserving and improving the status quo, then Christianity would not be it.
That would be of course, if that was our primary concern.
To talk in terms where Christians can understand, Abraham was a Hindu or lived among Hindus. He was able to come out of Hinduism. He did not just stop there' doing Hindu rituals and so on. He was in communication with God.
The Jews developed a religion (a new Hinduism) for everyone to follw when in fact Abraham came out of religion.
Jesus who was in direct communication with God came along and ask the Jews to come out of their religion and his followers created a new religion (a new Judaism) for seekers to follow. -
one cannot be a Christian Heretics if they are not considered to be christians in the first place.Originally posted by laoda99:yeah...the gnostics believe the world is created by a evil god call the demiurge, and Christ were sent by the good god to save others....
i won't consider gnostics as Christians. Marcionites and donatists etc maybe closer of being labelled as "Christian Heretics".
my mistake, missed out this word which grossly misrepresent myself, apology -
abraham a hindu???????????Originally posted by casino_king:That initial belief, is that the be all and end all? That is only an introduction to the possibilities. Most people stop there.
To talk in terms where Christians can understand, Abraham was a Hindu or lived among Hindus. He was able to come out of Hinduism. He did not just stop there' doing Hindu rituals and so on. He was in communication with God.
The Jews developed a religion (a new Hinduism) for everyone to follw when in fact Abraham came out of religion.
Jesus came along and ask the Jews to come out of their religion and his followers created a new religion (a new Judaism) for seekers to follow.
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someone stab me pls ..Originally posted by laoda99:abraham a hindu??????????? -
Something wrong with this statement. Smack of bigotry to me.Originally posted by vince69:one cannot be a Christian Heretics if they are considered to be christians in the first place.
fyi, Catholics consider Protestant Christians as heretics. What say you? -
Yes, you are very correct in your observation, my mistake, missed out one very important word in my statement.Originally posted by Icemoon:Something wrong with this statement. Smack of bigotry to me.
fyi, Catholics consider Protestant Christians as heretics. What say you?
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think u outdated liao........still live in the inquistion har.........now they say we are their "separated brethren"...Originally posted by Icemoon:Something wrong with this statement. Smack of bigotry to me.
fyi, Catholics consider Protestant Christians as heretics. What say you? -
on the heretics part, is there any way you can show documented proof of this statement (protentially a very highly debatable subject)?Originally posted by Icemoon:Something wrong with this statement. Smack of bigotry to me.
fyi, Catholics consider Protestant Christians as heretics. What say you?
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OK I will find the ref if you are too lazy to even google and prefers to die.Originally posted by Icemoon:someone stab me pls .. -
not the lost sheeps?Originally posted by laoda99:think u outdated liao........still live in the inquistion har.........now they say we are their "separated brethren"... -
quote from a reputable source har.....Originally posted by casino_king:OK I will find the ref if you are too lazy to even google and prefers to die.
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Hmm, if an idea is a heresy or not is something that is to be tested on the grounds of theology, not mere labels or mudwords to throw around in hope that they stick.
If C.K. is talking about the elimination of dead ritual and dogma in the conduct of faith then I would agree with him. However if such a statement is made with the assumption that having a direct contact with God would generate a totally new system of work that is better then the older established one is just that, an assumption. If you would want to call this new work a religion or not is really a matter of labels, but I have always supposed that one ought to do religion for God's sake, and not religion for religon's sake, if it has become that way, then it ought to be dismantled.
But I do not for a moment think that God is too small that He has to work in any one way. Granted many of the so-called revolutions turned out simply to be a restoration of that which had been lost to dead ritual and dogma. Also I note that Jesus didn't come to destroy the law by abolishing it, but rather by completing it with, as Aslan would put it: 'a deeper magic from beyond the beginning of time'.
So some might want to call the walk of faith a religion, some may want to call it a relationship, what I do know is what it is, and certainly what it is also not. -
Did Abraham smash the idols? The accounts of Abraham, Suras 19:41-49, 6:74-83 differ quite a bit from Sura 21:51-59. While in Sura 21 Abraham confronts his people strongly, and even destroys the idols, in Sura 19 Abraham shuts up after his father threatens him to stone him for speaking out against the idols. And he seems not only to become silent, but even to leave the area ("turning away from them all").Originally posted by casino_king:OK I will find the ref if you are too lazy to even google and prefers to die.
some more coming -
-peace peace peace -