Righteousness through faith
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Certainly not... but consider for a moment where their notions of right and wrong came from. Napolean sums it up when he said that we was no ordinary man and that the ordinary laws of right and wrong did not apply to him.Originally posted by casino_king:Did Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot think to themselves: "Hmm I think I want to go down in history as embodiment of evil. I would like to do what the world would consider Atrocities against Humanity. Yes that is what I like, yes, that is what I want?"
Rather, that these men do have have any sense of evil at all (the only evil to them is anything opposing them), other that the idea that facts are just facts and people are just material, it is how you view them that matters, and how you can make them to suit your own needs.
Do they need a conscience? I would suppose so, and yes they strong need one. They seem the same facts and logic as us, but only a conscience might be expected to convince them of the value, or the wrongeness of a certain set of acts. It is worthless to show sheer facts 53 million deaths and killings to Stalin if he thought that it was logical for mankind's future (and his own rememberance).
Hmm... anybody ever read about the stories about the thousands of child laborers who starve, die and remain poor in third world countries every year to feed our capitalist demands for petty material goods?Please be a little bit less naive.[/quote]
Before you delve into personal attacks, consider the following:[quote]For clear and immediate examples.... open up the newspapers and read about the suicide bombers.
How about our greatest medical advances in the petty things of life and our refusal to provide the proper research, care and supplies to the real medical problems that are really affecting the world. What about our opening up of sexual freedoms that had pretty much made the exploitation of youth in such a area acceptable pratice as long as you don't get caught. Who is to be the judge of them?
If humankind has come up with a better way of running the world on it's own, I have yet to see it. But I shall not delve into one-upmanship, just that I found your statement extremely shallow and naive. To suppose the religion and faith is the root of all human ignorance and evils is yet another naive statement. And I doubt it was made with any 'good' intentions for humanity at all.
Do open up your eyes a little. Seeing just one kind of evil is quite different from seeing it all.
Could you please learn a little humility and refrain from making outlandish arguments? Do remember that the things being said here are of value beyond sheer argument, and they deserve a proper amount of respect. You might also learn something. -
*koff* *koff*Originally posted by casino_king:And how did the conscience in man get there? Did the conscience in man and will the conscience of man tells him the same thing when he sees or do something 2000 years ago and 2000 years hence?
There is an answer, but you might not like it.
And you seem to be thinking the sense of conscience with the resultant action. The sense of sight 2000 years before and now is the same, but yet they inspire different actions on the same subject.
A simpleton 2000 years past may not reconize a car while one now might. But yet the sight remains.
Is the sense of conscience the whole package, or a part in this whole thing we call morality? And more importantly can it be removed? -
Originally posted by casino_king:
Since when did they? Is the the conception you get from Christians... or the values of the Christian faith itself? And if you make an argument are you argung against Human Christian Perception and Action or Absolute Christian Values?
It is my fault; after all that talk on Competence and Logic... I went on to talk about the true nature and purpose of FAITH (not the everyday variety)
I was trying to say that religious laws, dogma and religious practice does not constitute FAITH. That there is a more excellent way.I was getting back to the topic: [b]Righteousness through faith
Paul the intellectual did say something about this, it would do you good to read it.
That Righteousness through faith is indeed the more excellent way than Righteousness through law and religious practice.
Think about this. What is this Faith that is divorced from dogma, religious practice and religious laws?
[/b]
And if this is what you mean by faith, then I believe you to be half-correct. -
We might have to take one step back before we can go forward. To you conscience is: A prick? or A resolution?
The Prick. I wonder if what I am about to do / did is/was right? And this all there is to conscience.
Or after the prick. Some thinking you say to yourself: "Yes some people were hurt; but it helps so many other." End of conscience.
Which? Let define what we mean by conscience before we continue. -
OK I took your advice and did some googling.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Paul the intellectual did say something about this, it would do you good to read it.
And if this is what you mean by faith, then I believe you to be half-correct.
Paul continues in verses 22-24: "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Is that what you are getting at? That it is "through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."
You must understand the context. What about old testament saints who nevery knew Jesus? Was "through faith in Jesus Christ " literal or a principle? -
Ney, it would be unsafe to say that conscience is a prick (non vulgar usage), though it may sometimes work in people in the form of a pricking of the emotion to gravitate them towards doing the thing they know they should. However this emotion is not conscience itself, but rather the result of having one. The prick is activated by the conscience.Originally posted by casino_king:We might have to take one step back before we can go forward. To you conscience is: A prick? or A resolution?
The Prick. I wonder if what I am about to do / did is/was right? And this all there is to conscience.
Or after the prick. Some thinking you say to yourself: "Yes some people were hurt; but it helps so many other." End of conscience.
Which? Let define what we mean by conscience before we continue.
On the other hand, resolution does not quite fit it either. To suggest resolution would be to suggest conscience exists as pure dogma, which isn't true as well. In fact a look at conscience seems that it actually shapes the way we make our resolutions, rather then being the resolution itself. I resolve a set of logical values right out from a sense of conscience.
It seems to me that the conscience is a sense of should and ought innate in every human that leads them to distinguish between right and wrong.
How it is actually used or if it is listened to at all, is another question entirely. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
Depends on which camp you are onin.
OK I took your advice and did some googling.
[b]Paul continues in verses 22-24: "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Is that what you are getting at? That it is "through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."
You must understand the context. What about old testament saints who nevery knew Jesus? Was "through faith in Jesus Christ " literal or a principle?[/b]
On one side, you would believe that this 'faith in Jesus Christ' is a belief in the values and teachings that Jesus left behind to humanity. And righteousness comes from having faith in, praticing, and leading on the example Jesus left behind to humanity. Doing this will lead to righteousness.
On the other camp, you would take this faith in Jesus Christ literally to mean that one has to believe that Jesus, the very Person, is the One that saves you and is the only One that can make you righteous.
I come from the latter camp, and for certain compelling reasons. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
Salvation has always been through faith in Christ either in the Old Testament or in the New.
OK I took your advice and did some googling.
[b]Paul continues in verses 22-24: "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Is that what you are getting at? That it is "through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."
You must understand the context. What about old testament saints who nevery knew Jesus? Was "through faith in Jesus Christ " literal or a principle?[/b]
2Ti 3:14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Notice verse 15. Paul said that from childhood Timothy has known the Holy Scriptures. Now, remember at the time of writing this epistle the New Testament was not yet completed [obviously, Paul was still writing this epistle 2 Timothy, which is a part of the New testament]. When Paul said "Holy Scriptures" here he was referring to the Old Testament Scriptures.
What does Paul says to Timothy about the Old Test. Scriptures regarding salvation?
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
The OT Scriptures are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, the repentant sinner in the OT is able to see Christ, the coming Redeemer for salvation.
This is why Jesus said:
Joh 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
His "Scripture" at that time was God's revelation to him.
Plus remember that the protoevangelion was already preached by God to Adam and Eve after the fall.
Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."
Through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, a repentant sinner could see 'SEeds' there as the Lord Jesus Christ just like Abraham understood the word 'Seed.'
Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
During the dispensation of the Law, Christ salvation was pictured and foreshadowed in the animal sacrifices.
An Old Testament worshipper might have said these words in his heart while offering a sacrifice: “Lord God, I know that I am a sinner in need of forgiveness, I make this sacrifice of a lamb to you, but you know Lord that my trust and confidence that my sins will be forgiven is not on this lamb but on a coming Savior that this sacrifice of mine only symbolize. I know He will come, I don’t know when, but I know He will come, I don’t know what He will look like but I know what He will do; He will make the ultimate sacrifice for my sins past, present and future. And in Him alone Lord I trust.”
All saved sinners converge at Calvary. They looked forward. We look back. -
Certainly thought provoking... you are almost saying that conscience is the "voice of God."Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Ney, it would be unsafe to say that conscience is a prick (non vulgar usage), though it may sometimes work in people in the form of a pricking of the emotion to gravitate them towards doing the thing they know they should. However this emotion is not conscience itself, but rather the result of having one. The prick is activated by the conscience.
On the other hand, resolution does not quite fit it either. To suggest resolution would be to suggest conscience exists as pure dogma, which isn't true as well. In fact a look at conscience seems that it actually shapes the way we make our resolutions, rather then being the resolution itself. I resolve a set of logical values right out from a sense of conscience.
It seems to me that the conscience is a sense of should and ought innate in every human that leads them to distinguish between right and wrong.
How it is actually used or if it is listened to at all, is another question entirely. -
There is a third camp. That Jesus, the man, the person, the teaching (both your camps in fact) is a path to the ultimate prize. God.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Depends on which camp you are onin.
On one side, you would believe that this 'faith in Jesus Christ' is a belief in the values and teachings that Jesus left behind to humanity. And righteousness comes from having faith in, praticing, and leading on the example Jesus left behind to humanity. Doing this will lead to righteousness.
On the other camp, you would take this faith in Jesus Christ literally to mean that one has to believe that Jesus, the very Person, is the One that saves you and is the only One that can make you righteous.
I come from the latter camp, and for certain compelling reasons. -
Originally posted by Ironside:
It makes more sense that Jesus is the embodiment of Faith in God and whether it is during old testament times or new testament times; FAITH IN GOD; personified in Jesus; is the way to salvation.
Salvation has always been through faith in Christ either in the Old Testament or in the New.
2Ti 3:14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Notice verse 15. Paul said that from childhood Timothy has known the Holy Scriptures. Now, remember at the time of writing this epistle the New Testament was not yet completed [obviously, Paul was still writing this epistle 2 Timothy, which is a part of the New testament]. When Paul said "[b]Holy Scriptures" here he was referring to the Old Testament Scriptures.
What does Paul says to Timothy about the Old Test. Scriptures regarding salvation?
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
The OT Scriptures are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, the repentant sinner in the OT is able to see Christ, the coming Redeemer for salvation.
This is why Jesus said:
Joh 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
His "Scripture" at that time was God's revelation to him.
Plus remember that the protoevangelion was already preached by God to Adam and Eve after the fall.
Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."
Through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, a repentant sinner could see 'SEeds' there as the Lord Jesus Christ just like Abraham understood the word 'Seed.'
Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
During the dispensation of the Law, Christ salvation was pictured and foreshadowed in the animal sacrifices.
An Old Testament worshipper might have said these words in his heart while offering a sacrifice: “Lord God, I know that I am a sinner in need of forgiveness, I make this sacrifice of a lamb to you, but you know Lord that my trust and confidence that my sins will be forgiven is not on this lamb but on a coming Savior that this sacrifice of mine only symbolize. I know He will come, I don’t know when, but I know He will come, I don’t know what He will look like but I know what He will do; He will make the ultimate sacrifice for my sins past, present and future. And in Him alone Lord I trust.”
All saved sinners converge at Calvary. They looked forward. We look back. [/b] -
FAITH IN GOD; Righteousness through Faith is not something that you understand. So don't even attempt to understand what I am trying to say and don't even try to understand what you yourself are trying to say. Either you have it or you don't. But Jesus said, ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find. I and the father are one, if you know me (Faith) you know my father.
Jesus / the life of Jesus / the words of Jesus are mirrors. Look at it and see if you have it. Faith in God. -
u have a weird sense of theology, splitting Jesus and God into two entities.Originally posted by casino_king:FAITH IN GOD; Rightiuness through Faith is not something that you understand. So don't even attempt to understand what I am trying to say and don't even try to understand what you yourself are trying to say. Either you have it or you don't. But Jesus said, ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find. I and the father are one, if you know me (Faith) you know my father.
Jesus / the life of Jesus / the words of Jesus are mirrors. Look at it and see if you have it. Faith in God.
But it's ok, tat's ur perspective
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I warned you not to try to understand it didn't I? You either have it or you don't.Originally posted by laoda99:u have a weird sense of theology, splitting Jesus and God into two entities.
But it's ok, tat's ur perspective -
I can say u think u know a lot abt Christianity, but sadly u dun have it.Originally posted by casino_king:I warned you not to try to understand it didn't I? You either have it or you don't.
All these playing of words like "faith", "embodiement" only shows the lack of understanding of the Christian faith. -
Originally posted by casino_king:FAITH IN GOD; Righteousness through Faith is not something that you understand. So don't even attempt to understand what I am trying to say and don't even try to understand what you yourself are trying to say. Either you have it or you don't. But Jesus said, ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find. I and the father are one, if you know me (Faith) you know my father.
Jesus / the life of Jesus / the words of Jesus are mirrors. Look at it and see if you have it. Faith in God.
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See the big log in your eye?Originally posted by laoda99:I can say u think u know a lot abt Christianity, but sadly u dun have it. -
Yeah...the big log stretches from ur eye to mine.....Originally posted by casino_king:See the big log in your eye?
thought u know the verse...judge not, and u will not be judged?
quite funnee that those who dun agree with u have a big log always -
it's going nowhere let's leave it. -
Sure, go ahead, read the bible everyday, go for your cathecism classes; understand it; become a bible scholar, learn greek aramic english and jewish... learn the different interpretations of the words in the bible.... get a doctorate in Christian Theology and that will get you to heaven.Originally posted by laoda99:Yeah...the big log stretches from ur eye to mine.....
thought u know the verse...judge not, and u will not be judged?
Sure, no problem with me I am dumb and do not know Christian theology. -
I forgot one thing; it is not enough to have your doctorate; remember to bring THE CERTIFICATE to heaven, they want to see it before they let you in.
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Dont know, but some of the early Christians, now 'outlawed' or labelled 'heretical' were not believers in the Holy Trinity concept, coz it implies a pantheon of gods, not a single godOriginally posted by laoda99:u have a weird sense of theology, splitting Jesus and God into two entities.
But it's ok, tat's ur perspective
Interestingly, not saying its wrong or right, Gospel of Judas also stated that jesus were laughing at the aspostles when they were praying at the last supper, which is held during the passover festival, because they were praying to the god who created this world, not the really the god who created the universe or heavens, something like that -
Thank u. It takes courage to admit u are dumb.Originally posted by casino_king:Sure, no problem with me I am dumb and do not know Christian theology.
I applaud u. -
yeah...the gnostics believe the world is created by a evil god call the demiurge, and Christ were sent by the good god to save others....Originally posted by laurence82:Interestingly, not saying its wrong or right, Gospel of Judas also stated that jesus were laughing at the aspostles when they were praying at the last supper, which is held during the passover festival, because they were praying to the god who created this world, not the really the god who created the universe or heavens, something like that
i won't consider gnostics as Christians. Marcionites and donatists etc maybe closer of being labelled as "Christian Heretics". -
i dont know, the books is not with me now, but I remember there were numerous different denominations like Monarchianists and Gnostics before they were labelled hereticsOriginally posted by laoda99:yeah...the gnostics believe the world is created by a evil god call the demiurge, and Christ were sent by the good god to save others....
i won't consider gnostics as Christians. Marcionites and donatists etc maybe closer of being labelled as "Christian Heretics".