split personality of some forumers at EH?
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Well you can go on. Well he can go on too. At the end of the day, nothing changed. No one will think any better of you or him. But again, i pretty much leave it up to you all lah. I am an advocate of free will just as God intended when He created us.Originally posted by HENG@:"My advice to non-believers or people who disagrees? Say it once, say it twice. If the person does not accept your point of view, fine. Leave it as it is. There is no need to push a point across for the sake of it."
even if this means i stand by n watch some self righteous prick hurt others because he thinks he is doing the "right thing".
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i can't say for sure about his motivations, but im not here to speak up so much to get anyone to think better about me. I just want to speak up against an injustice against fellow human beings.Originally posted by gasband:Well you can go on. Well he can go on too. At the end of the day, nothing changed. No one will think any better of you or him. But again, i pretty much leave it up to you all lah. I am an advocate of free will just as God intended when He created us. -
So u are saying all the testimonies by homosexuals who are Christians are false?Originally posted by HENG@:Once again, that is denial to me. Its like chinese people who pretend to be white because they have been told its a sin to be chinese so now they are ex-chinese. This is an anaolgy. I'm not saying there actually are chinese who think its a sin to be chinese so they pretend to be white. However, there is no such thing as ex-homosexual. Its akin to saying someone is ex-chinese. Even Michael Jackson I don't consider him to be ex-black. But he certainly is a good analogy of someone who thinks he is "ex-homosexual" and has "ran away" from sin.
Just FYI, the age where homosexuality was synonymous with sexual promiscuity is past. As a matter of fact many homosexuals are now seeking to settle down and remain faithful to a single partner. I don't see how that is so sinful. A loving relationship should always be encouraged. In fact I am highly against sexual promiscuity.
Even if homosexuality remain faithful to a single partner, the problems are not going to be solved. As I have said, it is not an exclusive thing for Christians to think of homosexuality as a sin. Some cultures, such as Chinese culture, view it as a taboo too. Whether promiscuity or not, especially in Asian countries/culture, homosexuality is going to remain a taboo for many years to come. -
If they dun care what Christians think, why would they be disturbed? Obviously they do.....Originally posted by HENG@:Oh My Goodness!!!
DO you NOT GET IT?!
its not because they care wad Xtians think! its because those Xtians happen to be people close to you, such as family n friends! Erf! pls dun start making me think u're thick or something. -
Agreed.....Originally posted by gasband:But of cos, it is entirely the perogative of the person to decide whether or not to heed the advice of the christian. The christian has the right of view just as you have the right to live the lifestyle you want.
My advice to christians? Say it once, say it twice. If the person does not accept your point of view, fine. Leave it as it is. There is no need to push a point across for the sake of it.
My advice to non-believers or people who disagrees? Say it once, say it twice. If the person does not accept your point of view, fine. Leave it as it is. There is no need to push a point across for the sake of it. -
1. Well, at least not in Singapore, I dun see Christians running around and hitting homosexuals on the head with the bible =)
3. U want to make people guilty of what? Hmm...better spend more time spreading word for your cause that homosexuality is normal and should be encouraged.
4. It is very, very difficult for a child belong to a Christian family not to be Christian, but easier for a child not to be taoist/buddhist even if his family is.
IMO, no doubt the parents will be sad, help should be engaged for the child, with the church, with friends. No means should be taken to encourage the homosexual lifestyle.Originally posted by HENG@:1) well welcome to 2006. Have u been looking at the wave of religious(Xtian) fundamentalism sweeping USA lately? No? Well then I guess u've not been looking at the world too widely, or choosing only to see whats pleasing to your eyes.
3) If someone starts another forums for another religion that ACTIVELY attacks and discriminates people for their sexuality(not something that can actually be choosen), then i'll go there and speak up as well. since this forum deals with Xtianity, all context of "religion" we refer to here is xtianity. No doubt some other religions are guilty as well. But hey if it makes u feel good that Xtianity is EVEN part of it, instead of being solely guilty of it, I'm not too surprised.
As for this:
"If the person is non-christian and cannot care less what/how christians are saying abt them, can that person be driven to death by christians? "
Please lah. u want me to say how many times? Ok thats it, i say u are thick.
4) How come u keep refusing to accept that someone can be non-xtian when his or her family is xtian? A child doesn't have to follow his parent's faith.
There is zero logic in this statement:
"If the family is entirely Christian/Christian background, how can the victim be not a christian?"
1stly, u're assuming the family is Xtian from before the victim is born. U're forgetting there are many instances where the family converts to the Xtian faith later in life. Victim does not have to follow parents in converting to the faith.
2ndly, even if family is xtian from b4 victim is born, the family need not be "on" xtians. As a result victim need not have had the proper family influence with regards to religion. Afterall, many xtians are from families where majority of the family are of another faith. If this is true, why can't the converse be true also? -
very righteous...more righteous than pharisees....Originally posted by HENG@:even if this means i stand by n watch some self righteous prick hurt others because he thinks he is doing the "right thing". -
So far how's it going? U achieved anything yet?Originally posted by HENG@:i can't say for sure about his motivations, but im not here to speak up so much to get anyone to think better about me. I just want to speak up against an injustice against fellow human beings. -
Remeber the Gospel of Judas? Conveniently left out. So you see; whatever the bible is or you claim it to be; it is a bias inaccurate document.Originally posted by sgFish:you're taking a very anthropocentric point of view in this argument, by stating that what we as humans perceive through our limited senses is all that there is there. Information derived through human empiricism and rationalism is all based on perception, which we until today, have not really proved that it is entirely accurate.
Without delving too far into the epistemological realm, what i'm trying to say is that what we as humans perceive and measure not necessarily are true, due to many limitations that we often overlook, hence we cannot scientifically prove whether there is a God or not. My personal take is that if God had made it so easy for us to know all this, faith would not be required at all, and faith is one thing that enables God to do great works through us.
For a 'scientific method' way of justifying why I believe, I have to state that the main tenets of Christianity rests on the Bible. The Bible is a historically reliable source of information, as every place in there described was confirmed by archaeological finds, and writings of secular historians also corroborate with the Bible on many accounts.
Having established the Bible as a historically inerrant document, the Bible was written by multiple people over a period of time spanning generations, yet the whole Bible flows as a single piece of literature, and this gives evidence that the people who wrote it were inspired by God. Furthermore, Jesus fulfilled all 48 prophecies of a messiah that were written in the old testament, and the odds of any one man fulfilling all 48 are 1 in 10^157. By the science of probability, this rules out any random person accidentally fulfilling them, as in comparison, the number of electrons in the universe is estimated to be 10^79.
These are just a few points that i have raised. I shall stop here as I have to study for some upcoming tests soon.
Roman Catholics as I understand it, have no problems accepting Evolution Theory as proposed by Charles Darwin and refined by others.
Evolution Theory and creation of the universe in six days cannot co exists unless you say that the creation theory is Christian/Jewish mythology. Parable even. Symbolic... at the level of personal beliefs, it is not a problem... so I say, shamelessly stay in your churches and temples and mosques to encourage each other in your fantasies... but keep out of public forums and schools until you show us the evidence. -
i am a fallen one, i started off as someone who feared christianity, but practiced it as i was in a christian primary school.Originally posted by laurence82:Most worrisome of them all, the one I highlighted
laoda pointed out something i also am itching to ask anyway
Are some of the forumers here really Christians? I am not talking about people like icemoon or mc. I am talking about people who come in here, post some, urm, ridiculous topics, flame, talking senselessly, keeping crying God's name for sometime etc
I mean, they dont even sound like they read the Bible in the first place.
Anyway, consistency is good. At the very least, we know the values each of us hold, and we might even argue that it is wrong, but at least its still better to know what each other's views are than to deal with someone who keep changing the parameters.
then everything slowed down as i hated going to church, singing songs and praising something that i never believed in. i have to give props to my pri sch pastor for being able to induce so much fear in me, causing me to believe nothing but christianity. the incidences of some student in my class freaking out playing the oujia board further acts as examples for my pastor to use christianity as the one and only savior.
i stopped going to church finally.. and drifted further away from christianity.
then one fine day, christianity knocked on my doorstep again. this time, through someone i love. i started acting christian again, going to church, attending cell group meetings, giving good but false group prayers. i lived with hypocricy and fallacy.
the time came when i looked into my past, and realised how disgustingly i have been acting. i was over with christianity, even up till now. -
You are more in tune with Jesus Christ than you think....Originally posted by coffeeortea:i am a fallen one, i started off as someone who feared christianity, but practiced it as i was in a christian primary school.
then everything slowed down as i hated going to church, singing songs and praising something that i never believed in. i have to give props to my pri sch pastor for being able to induce so much fear in me, causing me to believe nothing but christianity. the incidences of some student in my class freaking out playing the oujia board further acts as examples for my pastor to use christianity as the one and only savior.
i stopped going to church finally.. and drifted further away from christianity.
then one fine day, christianity knocked on my doorstep again. this time, through someone i love. i started acting christian again, going to church, attending cell group meetings, giving good but false group prayers. i lived with hypocricy and fallacy.
the time came when i looked into my past, and realised how disgustingly i have been acting. i was over with christianity, even up till now.
QUOTE:
15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot.
16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of my mouth. -
U go to church becoz of your gf? And u left becoz ur gf left u?Originally posted by coffeeortea:i am a fallen one, i started off as someone who feared christianity, but practiced it as i was in a christian primary school.
then everything slowed down as i hated going to church, singing songs and praising something that i never believed in. i have to give props to my pri sch pastor for being able to induce so much fear in me, causing me to believe nothing but christianity. the incidences of some student in my class freaking out playing the oujia board further acts as examples for my pastor to use christianity as the one and only savior.
i stopped going to church finally.. and drifted further away from christianity.
then one fine day, christianity knocked on my doorstep again. this time, through someone i love. i started acting christian again, going to church, attending cell group meetings, giving good but false group prayers. i lived with hypocricy and fallacy.
the time came when i looked into my past, and realised how disgustingly i have been acting. i was over with christianity, even up till now. -
well.. my gf didnt leave me, i just decided that i wanna come clean and tell her i do not like church and christianity, and so i left.Originally posted by laoda99:U go to church becoz of your gf? And u left becoz ur gf left u?
originally, i went to church because of her. i explained all that in my post. -
So are u still with ur gf?Originally posted by coffeeortea:well.. my gf didnt leave me, i just decided that i wanna come clean and tell her i do not like church and christianity, and so i left.
originally, i went to church because of her. i explained all that in my post. -
physically, no. im 10000 miles away.Originally posted by laoda99:So are u still with ur gf?
what are you trying to prove? why do you have to gather so much information? -
Just curious.....Originally posted by coffeeortea:physically, no. im 10000 miles away.
what are you trying to prove? why do you have to gather so much information?
frankly, I am one of those who followed my gf back to church (though I was from a mission school i did not go to church) and then later settled down in church. I know many out there who haven settled down. And u are one of them. -
i have settled down for almost 4 years, and i am nowhere near touching a bible, let alone going to church again or seeking help in something i don't believe in. you might say that i will change my mind, but this is the longest time that i have been affirmative and sure of my decision. i believe in hard work, and not thanking something intangible for dedication. my faith in christianity has been crushed a long time ago.Originally posted by laoda99:Just curious.....
frankly, I am one of those who followed my gf back to church (though I was from a mission school i did not go to church) and then later settled down in church. I know many out there who haven settled down. And u are one of them. -
why was it crushed?Originally posted by coffeeortea:i have settled down for almost 4 years, and i am nowhere near touching a bible, let alone going to church again or seeking help in something i don't believe in. you might say that i will change my mind, but this is the longest time that i have been affirmative and sure of my decision. i believe in hard work, and not thanking something intangible for dedication. my faith in christianity has been crushed a long time ago.
yeah....even my bro says he dun believe in something that dun require hard work....is it becoz men always want it the hard way? -
its not false. its denial. there is a difference between the 2.Originally posted by laoda99:So u are saying all the testimonies by homosexuals who are Christians are false?
Even if homosexuality remain faithful to a single partner, the problems are not going to be solved. As I have said, it is not an exclusive thing for Christians to think of homosexuality as a sin. Some cultures, such as Chinese culture, view it as a taboo too. Whether promiscuity or not, especially in Asian countries/culture, homosexuality is going to remain a taboo for many years to come. -
If your family was taoist and they outcast u from the family for being Xtian, can u truthfully say u won't feel anything? But hey u're not taoist, why would their outcasting and criticism of you be disturbing to you? Because nobody likes to be enstrangled from their family duh. U really cannot get such a simple concept?Originally posted by laoda99:If they dun care what Christians think, why would they be disturbed? Obviously they do..... -
Originally posted by HENG@:
You raise valid issues.
why do u hate something thats natural???
im not so sure that u're attacking it because u love the sinner as much as because its something that disturbs your own comfort zone. U have a long way to go towards convincing me that u're really doing it out of their own good because last i looked, it doesn't seem that much different from the Catholic priests of old who accuse people of heresay and make them wear badges of shame or burn them at stake. The 'official' reason being the salvation of the victim's soul. Its rather funny how Xtians would rather lower a person's standard of life on the pretext of saving his soul.
First and foremost I will not deny the fact that all too often the concern with somebody's soul has been raised up as a facade for an actual hate attack on that person. This is a fact and attitude I will not try to deny in Christians because it is the very thing that disgusts me itself.
But the real question is if all Christians are like that, or do it with this motive. This would not then be a very fair judgement to make, especially when fairness for Homosexuals is concerned, the proponents of that notion should be fair to their percieved opponents as well. Let's not lump this with all Xtians or else it's not really different from making the homophobe's mistake, which is ignorance and prejudgements.
And another question is this. If you believe that something is wrong and would ultimately harm that person, and you truly love that person in the end. How then would you want to act? Would it be possible to make every single action congruent with that person's desires?Besides, last I checked, u're not making sure u're wearing garments of single fibres either, and nobody's attack you for that. I guess it must mean nobody loves u then.
I guess somebody might attack me (and rightfully so) if the garments I worn were derived from the bodies of their loved ones. I suspect the real problem is not if such an action is 'natural', but if it is right or wrong. Not unless one wants to take the view that all that comes naturally is correct. That notion I am not convinced of. For instance I can figure out a lot of things that come naturally to us that are not correct, as much as we may like to indulge them.
The problem with Christianity is that it is something that is quite explicitly anti-natural. It consists of doing a lot of things that would go against our natural instincts and desires. The real question I feel is if such a thing is right. I believe it is, the moment we consider the consquences of many unhindered naturalistic behaviours.The problem for many of us who are anti-homophobia is that its a matter of morals for us as well. In this case, the moral being, who are we to decide we have the right to make another human being's life miserable based on our personal beliefs? That doesn't seem moral in ANY way. If thats moral, then the 9/11 attacks are equally moral.
If the aim is making somebody miserable for the sake of misery, sadism or ignorance... then it's something that would be morally wrong. But if the whole point of bringing somebody through something really painful is for his ultimate good, then the causation of pain itself cannot be considered to be something that is bad in the larger context.
Now there is a problem with wanting to keep our personal beliefs to ourselves, and not bother each other with them.
First and formost it denys any sort of an absolute moral law that everybody is subject to, and that will cause a lot of trouble. Let me demostrate why:
Firstand formost by highlighting to me the misery that ignorant Xtians inflict on homosexuals you are in fact, highlighting to me the belief that such a thing is wrong and that all men should accept it. If this wasn't the case there there would be nothing to argue about... I would quite well simply go 'who cares about your standard? all that matters is what I believe'. But of course we hardly get people who do that, in fact I do see the point you are making.
Rather they (me) would try to appeal to some common logic that is shared to show why this way of looking at things comes closer to this absolute moral set of laws.
Now this is important considering personal beliefs. While personal views on absolute moral laws are in no way totally correct (we being fallen humans), they indicate strongly to us that there is a moral absolute out there that all men should listen to. Of course it's then not really a case of if people should keep their own view to themselves, but then a case of how close certain views get to this moral absolute.
Now this is the kicker: by accepting this principle, we are in fact saying that our personal beliefs should, and must matter to others. This would be impossible to deny. The real debate is not if we should keep to our own views, but rather whose view is closer to this moral absolute. This is the basis of all argument, and the very reason we are even arguing in the first place... that we begin with some common law above all of us and that we all must appeal to that we can disagree on in the first place.
The problem that arises if we insist that all personal beliefs should be personal we are saying that there is no absolute standard to judge any kind of personal belief. This then would destroy any kind of moral judgement on the 911 hijackers as they simply did what they were convicted to do. As would a murderer who says he has no reason to feel sorry for the killing of women and children as in his own value set, it is the right thing to do... away with all other personal beliefs. In fact such a notion helps, and not destroys homophobia... for homophobia is exactly such a mindset that assumes that one should just do whatever he feels is right about homosexuals without considering any other moral issues. This is of course different from the disagreement that Christians ought to take... I may disagree with what the Soviets in Stalin's regin are doing but that cannot mean that I hate all russians from that time with a passion.
Now let me say that I agree with you that rabid homophobia is a bad thing, and a stain on the reputation on the Church. For the first thing I doubt Jesus himself was homophobic. But the issue is this: Christians believe that homosexuality in itself is wrong, and that something needs to be done with it just as any other kind of sin needs something to be dealt with. The real issue is not if Christians should do something about it, but if it is in itself an issue that requires the attention of sin-fighting. To stop the mice-catchers one needs to be convinced the things in the cellar are not mice. Of course then much of Christianity considers the act of homosexuality such a 'mouse'. -
That sounds somewhat like my story... but it seems we took different paths.Originally posted by coffeeortea:i am a fallen one, i started off as someone who feared christianity, but practiced it as i was in a christian primary school.
then everything slowed down as i hated going to church, singing songs and praising something that i never believed in. i have to give props to my pri sch pastor for being able to induce so much fear in me, causing me to believe nothing but christianity. the incidences of some student in my class freaking out playing the oujia board further acts as examples for my pastor to use christianity as the one and only savior.
i stopped going to church finally.. and drifted further away from christianity.
then one fine day, christianity knocked on my doorstep again. this time, through someone i love. i started acting christian again, going to church, attending cell group meetings, giving good but false group prayers. i lived with hypocricy and fallacy.
the time came when i looked into my past, and realised how disgustingly i have been acting. i was over with christianity, even up till now. -
1) neither do i see that in USA. however, u asked where there are communities that are predominantly Xtian, im answering to the point. don't go shooting off on another tangent. And fundamentalist Xtians dun run around hitting ppl on the head with bibles either. They just simply discriminate as a whole, against some people. and lower their quality of life.Originally posted by laoda99:1. Well, at least not in Singapore, I dun see Christians running around and hitting homosexuals on the head with the bible =)
3. U want to make people guilty of what? Hmm...better spend more time spreading word for your cause that homosexuality is normal and should be encouraged.
4. It is very, very difficult for a child belong to a Christian family not to be Christian, but easier for a child not to be taoist/buddhist even if his family is.
IMO, no doubt the parents will be sad, help should be engaged for the child, with the church, with friends. No means should be taken to encourage the homosexual lifestyle.
Let me ask u, would u like to live in a place where everybody refused to talk to u, are unfriendly to you, and treat u like a 3rd class citizen? No i dun think u would. Neither do homosexuals. U once again seem to forget they are humans like anyone else, and can feel upset or depressed at the insensitive things others say, REGARDLESS of what religion those "others" belong to. It doesn't mean they're non-Xtian means they dun care about being insulted and being discriminated against. Its got nothing to do with religion. Its got EVERYTHING to do with being HUMAN and behaving in a way HUMANS do when they feel insulted, discriminated against, and hostile against.
and please. don't come and tell me "if they're not xtian they shouldn't feel insulted..." u say that means u still cannot understand such a simple concept.
3) Guilty? why would u need to feel im making u feel guilty? Unless of course u full well know inside that u ARE guilty of something.
I'll also ask u to stop assuming anyone who is against homophobia is gay. It smacks totally of ignorant and prejudiced, bigotted thinking.
4) I disagree. Religion is a personal choice, and just because u're born into a Xtian family dun mean u're Xtian. That is a rubbish argument really. So now u're discriminating against other religions also la. Child is not taoist/buddhist even if parents is, while child cannot not be Xtian if parents are. Why? because u're xtian huh? So other religions that are not yours do not enjoy the same day to day reality as your religion Don't I just love it when people like u start bandying Xtian supremacist attitudes around. -
u know the irony is that that phrase really refers to u.Originally posted by laoda99:very righteous...more righteous than pharisees.... -
All that is needed for evil to triumph is that good men do nothingOriginally posted by laoda99:So far how's it going? U achieved anything yet?
im doing my part.