split personality of some forumers at EH?
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why do u hate something thats natural???Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:I am not entirely convinced that all Christians who attack homosexuality do it with an attitude of love. Indeed for many Christians (including me) it involves the hate of what we consider to be the sin, but the whole point of wanting to attack (and in fact even the hate of) the sin has to be out of love for the person who is doing it. If you don't love homosexuals, then you should not be attacking homosexuality at all.
im not so sure that u're attacking it because u love the sinner as much as because its something that disturbs your own comfort zone. U have a long way to go towards convincing me that u're really doing it out of their own good because last i looked, it doesn't seem that much different from the Catholic priests of old who accuse people of heresay and make them wear badges of shame or burn them at stake. The 'official' reason being the salvation of the victim's soul. Its rather funny how Xtians would rather lower a person's standard of life on the pretext of saving his soul.
Besides, last I checked, u're not making sure u're wearing garments of single fibres either, and nobody's attack you for that. I guess it must mean nobody loves u then.
The problem for many of us who are anti-homophobia is that its a matter of morals for us as well. In this case, the moral being, who are we to decide we have the right to make another human being's life miserable based on our personal beliefs? That doesn't seem moral in ANY way. If thats moral, then the 9/11 attacks are equally moral. -
then no i say it is not correct to correct another, when the whole absolute of 'right' and 'wrong' for the circumstance is not clearly defined for everyone involved. In this case, only certain groups of people have a black and white view of the circumstance, and it is not morally justified for them to impose judegments based on THEIR OWN PERSONAL BELIEFS on others who do not share the same beliefs.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:let's not discuss if homosexuality is wrong or not.
instead consider this: Is it all right for someone to correct another who is in the wrong, even though the 'another' may not like the sound of it?
If it is right for people to correct another whom they think are making a mistake based on their own personal beliefs, then everytime religious extremists commit acts of terrorism, it is justified as well, and morally acceptable.
Last I looked, Christianity is also about your personal relationship with God(at least for non-catholics) and not about forcing your beliefs and judgements based on those beliefs on others. Only God is qualified to judge other people. -
I agree with ur last part.Originally posted by HENG@:Last I looked, Christianity is also about your personal relationship with God(at least for non-catholics) and not about forcing your beliefs and judgements based on those beliefs on others. Only God is qualified to judge other people.
However, homosexuality is still a sin (one of the many sins) in Christian context which can be avoided (like many other sins) by running to the cross.
Only by showing love for homosexuals can Christians help homosexuals to turn to the lord, not by condemnation.
I like what Philip Yancey wrote:" We are all oddballs." We should help each other. -
Nothing wrong with correcting the mistakes of others (infact I would appreiate those who out of their genuine concern for me, come to me to point out my mistakes, I would count them as my true friends), the thing is this..Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:let's not discuss if homosexuality is wrong or not.
instead consider this: Is it all right for someone to correct another who is in the wrong, even though the 'another' may not like the sound of it?
When correcting others, few things need to be noted.
1) How sure are we in deducing the other really making a mistake,
2) The approach we are adopting in bringing this forward, yes, there are things that are hard to accept, but a correct approach may help make it easier for the receiptent.
God bless
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well, see, the point is, that homosexuality is a sin is your religion's belief. For someone from your religion, it might seem like he's helping, but if u look at it from another point of view, one can easily see it as doing needless damage as well.Originally posted by laoda99:I agree with ur last part.
However, homosexuality is still a sin (one of the many sins) in Christian context which can be avoided (like many other sins) by running to the cross.
Only by showing love for homosexuals can Christians help homosexuals to turn to the lord, not by condemnation.
I like what Philip Yancey wrote:" We are all oddballs." We should help each other.
Afterall, I don't think u want the statistics of how many homosexual people have been driven to suicide because of this sort of "help". People think they are doing good but end up doing harm. I dunno but its quite amazing for anybody, much less supposedly religious people, to feel good as long as they think they're helping, and ignore the sort of needless harm, hurt and destruction they cause in the process. It almost seem like they are pandering to their own conscience with the delusion of doing good rather than truely doing it out of the pure kindness of their hearts.
With Xtianity especially, so often has "for your own good" been bandied around as a pretext for other motives, such as the destruction of the pagan-keltic-anglo-saxon culture, such as the Albigensian Crusades against the Cathars(and once again the destruction of much of the Southern French culture). Its almost heart wrenching for me to see that people JUST refuse to learn from history.
If you people feel a need to "correct" others for perceived "sins", don't justify it as doing it out of the goodness of your heart. Xtians convert to xtianity because they wish to be saved to begin with. To be very very honest, no matter which angle u look at it, the motivations for converting to that religion is a selfish one. When u feel that need to "correct" others, its for the appeasement of your own conscience. So drop the act & stop putting the quality of life of others as a secondary concern to the appeasement of your own conscience. -
1. "Needless" damage? Elaborate why?
2. Christians do not have to preach or "correct" others to have a better conscience. There is also nothing more we can do more and nothing less to please god. If it is not out of love, what is it for?
3. Where do u get your statistics of homosexual people driven by christians who genuinely want to help them? And kindly share with us the statistics.
4. Do u personally know of any homosexual driven to death by any Christian who wanted to help?
5. Is it just your own perceived idea that Christians drive homosexuals to death?Originally posted by HENG@:well, see, the point is, that homosexuality is a sin is your religion's belief. For someone from your religion, it might seem like he's helping, but if u look at it from another point of view, one can easily see it as doing needless damage as well.
Afterall, I don't think u want the statistics of how many homosexual people have been driven to suicide because of this sort of "help". People think they are doing good but end up doing harm. I dunno but its quite amazing for anybody, much less supposedly religious people, to feel good as long as they think they're helping, and ignore the sort of needless harm, hurt and destruction they cause in the process. It almost seem like they are pandering to their own conscience with the delusion of doing good rather than truely doing it out of the pure kindness of their hearts.
With Xtianity especially, so often has "for your own good" been bandied around as a pretext for other motives, such as the destruction of the pagan-keltic-anglo-saxon culture, such as the Albigensian Crusades against the Cathars(and once again the destruction of much of the Southern French culture). Its almost heart wrenching for me to see that people JUST refuse to learn from history.
If you people feel a need to "correct" others for perceived "sins", don't justify it as doing it out of the goodness of your heart. Xtians convert to xtianity because they wish to be saved to begin with. To be very very honest, no matter which angle u look at it, the motivations for converting to that religion is a selfish one. When u feel that need to "correct" others, its for the appeasement of your own conscience. So drop the act & stop putting the quality of life of others as a secondary concern to the appeasement of your own conscience. -
1) because in the case of xtians, its a xtian belief. Even amongst xtians, some of them do not believe it to be a sin. when this belief that its a sin is due to your personal religious, u cannot simply impose it on everyone. U are very sure that your religion is the 'right' one but there are many others who also believe their religion is the only true religion. In this case, u are as much a deluded and lost disbeliever to them as they are to u, so u cannot apply a standard of absolutivity of judgement based on YOUR religion to THEIR circumstances. Its wrong to do that. What if your religion and its beliefs are finally found to be false? Then all the damage and hurt u cause will be for nothing. In this case, there is the possiblity that whatever harm u do will be needless. So in cases where there is a very undefined and unabsolute standard of judgement, u shouldn't presume to intervene "for their good".Originally posted by laoda99:1. "Needless" damage? Elaborate why?
2. Christians do not have to preach or "correct" others to have a better conscience. There is also nothing more we can do more and nothing less to please god. If it is not out of love, what is it for?
3. Where do u get your statistics of homosexual people driven by christians who genuinely want to help them?
2) Oh lets face it. What u're telling me is THEORATICALLY, Christians do not have to preach or "correct" others to have a better conscience. We're all living in reality yes? You know that reality-wise, there are many who preach for the sake of assauging their own conscience, especially with Xtian homosexuals in denial. The feeling must be terrible, each day having to deny their birthright.
3) The statistics are there for anyone who wishes to see. The problem is, Xtians would rather not see. Its one more thing to weigh on their conscience.
just one example:
from www.religioustolerance.org:
...if they discover later in life that they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual they often go through a spiritual crisis. Too many realize that their sexual orientation is unchangeable, and that they cannot go through life as someone that they have been taught to hate; they commit suicide. (About 30% of teen suicides are due to this cause; one of the costs of homophobia)
4) Yes.
5) No its not my own perceived notion. Like I said, the evidence is out there for anyone to see. -
1. All the Christian can do is to preach. If the homosexual do not accept, can the Christian forces what he blieve down the homosexual's throat?
2.For the part in red, do u mean Christian homosexuals correct non-Christian homosexuals for a better conscience? If they really do, then it is really sad that the ones driving non-christian homosexuals (if ever such thing happen) to death are homosexuals themselves.
3. U said there are statistics. Kindly show to prove ur point.
4. How was the person u know driven to death by Christians?
5.Originally posted by HENG@:from www.religioustolerance.org:
...if they discover later in life that they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual they often go through a spiritual crisis. Too many realize that their sexual orientation is unchangeable, and that they cannot go through life as someone that they have been taught to hate; they commit suicide. (About 30% of teen suicides are due to this cause; one of the costs of homophobia)[/quote]
If i am not wrong, the homosexuals u claim to commit suicide are homosexuals who are christians, not non-christians (as shown by the word "spirtual crisis"). I doubt non-christian homosexuals care what Christians says abt them.
Homosexual christians need the most help. The church should not reject them and should help them at all cost.
[quote]Originally posted by HENG@:1) because in the case of xtians, its a xtian belief. Even amongst xtians, some of them do not believe it to be a sin. when this belief that its a sin is due to your personal religious, u cannot simply impose it on everyone. U are very sure that your religion is the 'right' one but there are many others who also believe their religion is the only true religion. In this case, u are as much a deluded and lost disbeliever to them as they are to u, so u cannot apply a standard of absolutivity of judgement based on YOUR religion to THEIR circumstances. Its wrong to do that. What if your religion and its beliefs are finally found to be false? Then all the damage and hurt u cause will be for nothing. In this case, there is the possiblity that whatever harm u do will be needless. So in cases where there is a very undefined and unabsolute standard of judgement, u shouldn't presume to intervene "for their good".
2) Oh lets face it. What u're telling me is THEORATICALLY, Christians do not have to preach or "correct" others to have a better conscience. We're all living in reality yes? You know that reality-wise, there are many who preach for the sake of assauging their own conscience, especially with Xtian homosexuals in denial. The feeling must be terrible, each day having to deny their birthright.
3) The statistics are there for anyone who wishes to see. The problem is, Xtians would rather not see. Its one more thing to weigh on their conscience.
just one example:
from www.religioustolerance.org:
...if they discover later in life that they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual they often go through a spiritual crisis. Too many realize that their sexual orientation is unchangeable, and that they cannot go through life as someone that they have been taught to hate;they commit suicide. (About 30% of teen suicides are due to this cause; one of the costs of homophobia) -
1) no but they often do their best to make the homosexual's life miserable by outcasting him from the family, from the community etc. This resultant lowering of his standard of life can often lead to mental depression, which then leads to suicide.Originally posted by laoda99:1. All the Christian can do is to preach. If the homosexual do not accept, can the Christian forces what he blieve down the homosexual's throat?
2.For the part in red, do u mean Christian homosexuals correct non-Christian homosexuals for a better conscience? If they really do, then it is really sad that the ones driving non-christian homosexuals (if ever such thing happen) to death are homosexuals themselves.
3. U said there are statistics. Kindly show to prove ur point.
4. How was the person u know driven to death by Christians?
5.
2) Both homosexual and non-homosexual christians. but homosexual christians are often the ones who are even more homophobic. And when i say homosexua christians, i include those who are seemingly 'straight' but are actually repressed homosexuals and this get their motivation for their homophobia from their own repression. In a way, yes its really sad that homosexuals are responsible for the death of other homosexuals, but its often their religion that caused them to reject their own sexuality to begin with, which gives rise to that repression that manifests itself with fierce homophobia.
Still there are truely straight xtians who r guilty as well, so u can't put all the blame on the repressed homosexual xtians alone.
3) I already quoted u some of the statistics.
30% of teen suicides are due to homophobia from religious viewpoints. U dun consider that a statistic?
4) Xtian family disagree with the person's lifestyle. They 'disown' him in hope that he will change. Other relatives keep telling him he is sinning badly and that he will burn in hell etc etc. In the end, constant mental abuse from all these people for over 5 years drive the person to suicide. -
no trust me. this is just one example of how xtians who think they are doing good do harm. its not just about that xtian homosexual's personal beliefs. The way the people around him, esp his or her fellow xtians react, will play a big part in whether it ends in tragedy as well.Originally posted by laoda99:If i am not wrong, the homosexuals u claim to commit suicide are homosexuals who are christians, not non-christians (as shown by the word "spirtual crisis". I doubt non-christian homosexuals care what Christians says abt them.
Homosexual christians need the most help. The church should not reject them and should help them at all cost.
And i dun think u've fully thought it thru in making that statement. if the xtian making comments about u are your own friends, parents or relatives, much as u're not a non-believer, it would affect u.
as for "the church should help them at all cost"
what constitutes help them at all cost? "help" them turn straight, or help them accept themselves and be unashamed to live a homosexual lifestyle? See thats whats scary about the church wanting to help. It's always "at all costs" isn't it? save one's soul even if it means burning him at stake? I don't agree with the "helping" at all cost idea. Who's to say your idea of "help" is truely beneficial in a non-spiritual sense. -
from www.religioustolerance.org:
We would point out an analogy in American history. When the U.S. was founded, there was a biblically-based consensus about slavery: that God condoned the institution by issuing parts of the Mosaic law to regulate it. St. Paul had every opportunity to comment on the immorality of slavery, but did not criticize it. It was only when individuals deviated from the Bible's clear statements about slavery that an abolition movement began. To paraphrase Johnston, "It is because we jettisoned as a people that biblical consensus on slavery that we lead to a different position-taking on human bondage based on opinion." Deviating from the clear mandate of Scriptures, the abolition movement was eventually successfully in freeing the slaves in the U.S. There is a near-consensus that society must jettison much of the Bible's stance on the role of women. There will be a near consensus that the same must happen over homosexuality in the future. -
and so...back again to homosexuals VS religion eh?
sigh...
nature VS nurture
psychology/science VS religion
people have been arguing/debating forever about this.
keep going...because you guys will never reach any sort of agreement u know... -
1) How do they outcast him from the family, from the community? Christians must be very resourceful and very influential persons
2) So u think it is not the christian homosexual's fault but the faith's? Is that your own perception? Any research to back up ur claim?Do you know what is the agenda of all Christian homosexuals?
3) I want statistics how many homosexuals (including teens) who are forced to death by Christian workers who are trying to help them. Btw, "Religious" viewpoints can also constitute other faiths.
4) So u are saying that the Christian homosexual is force to commit suicide by his own family. So in a way, do u agree with me Christian homosexuals require the most help (from Christians and non-christians alike)
How abt those non-christian homosexuals which u have wrote? Who drove them to death? In my opinion, non-Christian homosexuals have little care about what the pope writes abt them.Originally posted by HENG@:1) no but they often do their best to make the homosexual's life miserable by outcasting him from the family, from the community etc. This resultant lowering of his standard of life can often lead to mental depression, which then leads to suicide.
2) Both homosexual and non-homosexual christians. but homosexual christians are often the ones who are even more homophobic. And when i say homosexua christians, i include those who are seemingly 'straight' but are actually repressed homosexuals and this get their motivation for their homophobia from their own repression. In a way, yes its really sad that homosexuals are responsible for the death of other homosexuals, but its often their religion that caused them to reject their own sexuality to begin with, which gives rise to that repression that manifests itself with fierce homophobia.
Still there are truely straight xtians who r guilty as well, so u can't put all the blame on the repressed homosexual xtians alone.
3) I already quoted u some of the statistics.
30% of teen suicides are due to homophobia from religious viewpoints. U dun consider that a statistic?
4) Xtian family disagree with the person's lifestyle. They 'disown' him in hope that he will change. Other relatives keep telling him he is sinning badly and that he will burn in hell etc etc. In the end, constant mental abuse from all these people for over 5 years drive the person to suicide. -
For me, it will be helping them to find rest in the lord and to turn away from sin. But I guess pretty much for u u will want them to accept themselves and live their preferred homosexual lifestyle (which Christianity clearly stated as a sin).Originally posted by HENG@:as for "the church should help them at all cost"
what constitutes help them at all cost? "help" them turn straight, or help them accept themselves and be unashamed to live a homosexual lifestyle? See thats whats scary about the church wanting to help. It's always "at all costs" isn't it? save one's soul even if it means burning him at stake? I don't agree with the "helping" at all cost idea. Who's to say your idea of "help" is truely beneficial in a non-spiritual sense.
I do not think Christians are still burning people at the stake. Mebbe u want to check what time/date it is now. And who's to say Christians' help are not beneficial? There have been books by ex-homosexuals who have found rest in the lord and ran away from sin. Can u deny that as well? -
But how you gonna do that if they dun even think it is sinful??Originally posted by laoda99:For me, it will be helping them to find rest in the lord and to turn away from sin. But I guess pretty much for u u will want them to accept themselves and live their preferred homosexual lifestyle (which Christianity clearly stated as a sin). -
Exactly!!! For non-Christian homosexuals I really doubt they find it sinful hence they would not be bothered by how/what Christians see them.Originally posted by Icemoon:But how you gonna do that if they dun even think it is sinful??
For Christian homosexuals, I think the church should make them see the light, guide them by using scriptures/prayers/counselling/other forms of help. -
there are so-called churches for homosexuals.Originally posted by laoda99:Exactly!!! For non-Christian homosexuals I really doubt they find it sinful hence they would not be bothered by how/what Christians see them.
For Christian homosexuals, I think the church should make them see the light, guide them by using scriptures/prayers/counselling/other forms of help.
so-called churches because they are actually recognized as cults. -
1) Any family can dun allow him to step back home. The Community simply show hostility towards him as a whole. No need to be powerful or influential when everyone within the community are stauch xtians with firm beliefs do they?Originally posted by laoda99:1) How do they outcast him from the family, from the community? Christians must be very resourceful and very influential persons
2) So u think it is not the christian homosexual's fault but the faith's? Is that your own perception? Any research to back up ur claim?Do you know what is the agenda of all Christian homosexuals?
3) I want statistics how many homosexuals (including teens) who are forced to death by Christian workers who are trying to help them.
4) So u are saying that the Christian homosexual is force to commit suicide by his own family. So in a way, do u agree with me Christian homosexuals require the most help (from Christians and non-christians alike)
How abt those non-christian homosexuals which u have wrote? Who drove them to death? In my opinion, non-Christian homosexuals have little care about what the pope writes abt them.
2) Its the faith that teaches them its wrong and unnatural to be homosexual. Faith is, to quote "being told from the cradle that it's a virtue to believe in something in spite of lack of evidence". That same faith means people can end up believing and focusing on the wrong things. Within the field of psychology, it is well known that homophobia is often due to insecurity with one's own sexuality, due to repression of one's sexuality. Its not an agenda. It's an end result.
3) When we say homosexual suicides due to Xtian interference, don't only or primarily refer to suicide cases due to Xtian aid workers trying to help. It primarily involves cases where homosexual victims who have committed suicide have done so with motivating factor for suicide due to depression issues caused by the inacceptance due to a regligious belief(in this case xtian) of the victim by those around them(eg family, relatives, friends, community etc).
If u don't get a specific number, u dun mind taking a risk that u're going to cause someone's death, as long as that means u can hold fast to your beliefs n impose them on others?
4) Nope. I'm saying he is driven to suicide by his family. They THOUGHT they are doing the right thing, when they are actually causing harm. they did not force him to commit suicide. However, their actions led to a reduced quality of life for him, leading to depression and ultimately suicide.
And u still dun get it. In this case, the victim was non-xtian. his family was, not him. Its simple logic. U can get it or not? -
So far I only have one church in mind - the freecommunity church at Yangtze Cinema. But I do not know whether it is a cult.Originally posted by udontknowme:there are so-called churches for homosexuals.
so-called churches because they are actually recognized as cults. -
1. Everyone within the community are stauch christians? Wow! Where do u get so many staunch christians?
3. Why in this case xtian? The statistics u showed says "religious faiths". Are u anti-christian? If the person is non-christian and cannot care less what/how christians are saying abt them, can that person be driven to death by christians? I would say it is more than the Christian faith that may push homosexuals to commit suicide. I am more inclined to say "cultural influence" (as in Chinese culture homosexuality is a taboo also).
U are the one who said u can provide statistics...the onus is on u to show and prove ur point.
4. If the family is entirely Christian/Christian background, how can the victim be not a christian? As I have said, these Christians need the most help.Originally posted by HENG@:1) Any family can dun allow him to step back home. The Community simply show hostility towards him as a whole. No need to be powerful or influential when everyone within the community are stauch xtians with firm beliefs do they?
2) Its the faith that teaches them its wrong and unnatural to be homosexual. Faith is, to quote "being told from the cradle that it's a virtue to believe in something in spite of lack of evidence". That same faith means people can end up believing and focusing on the wrong things. Within the field of psychology, it is well known that homophobia is often due to insecurity with one's own sexuality, due to repression of one's sexuality. Its not an agenda. It's an end result.
3) When we say homosexual suicides due to Xtian interference, don't only or primarily refer to suicide cases due to Xtian aid workers trying to help. It primarily involves cases where homosexual victims who have committed suicide have done so with motivating factor for suicide due to depression issues caused by the inacceptance due to a regligious belief(in this case xtian) of the victim by those around them(eg family, relatives, friends, community etc).
If u don't get a specific number, u dun mind taking a risk that u're going to cause someone's death, as long as that means u can hold fast to your beliefs n impose them on others?
4) Nope. I'm saying he is driven to suicide by his family. They THOUGHT they are doing the right thing, when they are actually causing harm. they did not force him to commit suicide. However, their actions led to a reduced quality of life for him, leading to depression and ultimately suicide.
And u still dun get it. In this case, the victim was non-xtian. his family was, not him. Its simple logic. U can get it or not? -
That is denial. Because homosexuality is a sin only depending on what your beliefs are. Its not a question of absolute morality. It becomes very tricky to decide who u should help and who u should not. I guess if u're referring to xtian homosexuals who have willingly submitted themselves to the religion, then xtians have every right to enforce the will of yr religion upon them, and make sure they keep in line.Originally posted by laoda99:For me, it will be helping them to find rest in the lord and to turn away from sin. But I guess pretty much for u u will want them to accept themselves and live their preferred homosexual lifestyle (which Christianity clearly stated as a sin).
I will not deny however, that I think its denial of themselves. Its like a chinese person pretending he is white.
U miss the point. I'm saying in the past, there has been lots of precedents of Xtians who presuem they're helping when in reality they're causing damage and harm.Originally posted by laoda99:I do not think Christians are still burning people at the stake. Mebbe u want to check what time/date it is now.
Once again, that is denial to me. Its like chinese people who pretend to be white because they have been told its a sin to be chinese so now they are ex-chinese. This is an anaolgy. I'm not saying there actually are chinese who think its a sin to be chinese so they pretend to be white. However, there is no such thing as ex-homosexual. Its akin to saying someone is ex-chinese. Even Michael Jackson I don't consider him to be ex-black. But he certainly is a good analogy of someone who thinks he is "ex-homosexual" and has "ran away" from sin.Originally posted by laoda99:And who's to say Christians' help are not beneficial? There have been books by ex-homosexuals who have found rest in the lord and ran away from sin. Can u deny that as well?
Just FYI, the age where homosexuality was synonymous with sexual promiscuity is past. As a matter of fact many homosexuals are now seeking to settle down and remain faithful to a single partner. I don't see how that is so sinful. A loving relationship should always be encouraged. In fact I am highly against sexual promiscuity. -
Oh My Goodness!!!Originally posted by laoda99:Exactly!!! For non-Christian homosexuals I really doubt they find it sinful hence they would not be bothered by how/what Christians see them.
For Christian homosexuals, I think the church should make them see the light, guide them by using scriptures/prayers/counselling/other forms of help.
DO you NOT GET IT?!
its not because they care wad Xtians think! its because those Xtians happen to be people close to you, such as family n friends! Erf! pls dun start making me think u're thick or something. -
It is all very simple.
We as christians, state our point of view. We believe that Homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sin that you and me will commit. i.e. Lying, cursing etc.... Thus, that is the christian point of view. Homosexuality is as common a sin as any other sins in the christian context. So do we hate LIARS? Nay, then we would be hating ourselves. So the christian context is that we hate the sin, love the sinners. Like what Laoda quotes from Philip Yancey, we are all oddballs, we just wanna help each other.
Then of course, the other camp feels that christians are too insensitive in so called trying to help. And fair enough, there are christians who are too forceful and trying to correct without the love that Jesus Himself would have shown. But of cos, it is entirely the perogative of the person to decide whether or not to heed the advice of the christian. The christian has the right of view just as you have the right to live the lifestyle you want.
My advice to christians? Say it once, say it twice. If the person does not accept your point of view, fine. Leave it as it is. There is no need to push a point across for the sake of it.
My advice to non-believers or people who disagrees? Say it once, say it twice. If the person does not accept your point of view, fine. Leave it as it is. There is no need to push a point across for the sake of it. -
1) well welcome to 2006. Have u been looking at the wave of religious(Xtian) fundamentalism sweeping USA lately? No? Well then I guess u've not been looking at the world too widely, or choosing only to see whats pleasing to your eyes.Originally posted by laoda99:1. Everyone within the community are stauch christians? Wow! Where do u get so many staunch christians?
3. Why in this case xtian? The statistics u showed says "religious faiths". Are u anti-christian? If the person is non-christian and cannot care less what/how christians are saying abt them, can that person be driven to death by christians? I would say it is more than the Christian faith that may push homosexuals to commit suicide. I am more inclined to say "cultural influence" (as in Chinese culture homosexuality is a taboo also).
U are the one who said u can provide statistics...the onus is on u to show and prove ur point.
4. If the family is entirely Christian/Christian background, how can the victim be not a christian? As I have said, these Christians need the most help.
3) If someone starts another forums for another religion that ACTIVELY attacks and discriminates people for their sexuality(not something that can actually be choosen), then i'll go there and speak up as well. since this forum deals with Xtianity, all context of "religion" we refer to here is xtianity. No doubt some other religions are guilty as well. But hey if it makes u feel good that Xtianity is EVEN part of it, instead of being solely guilty of it, I'm not too surprised.
As for this:
"If the person is non-christian and cannot care less what/how christians are saying abt them, can that person be driven to death by christians? "
Please lah. u want me to say how many times? Ok thats it, i say u are thick.
4) How come u keep refusing to accept that someone can be non-xtian when his or her family is xtian? A child doesn't have to follow his parent's faith.
There is zero logic in this statement:
"If the family is entirely Christian/Christian background, how can the victim be not a christian?"
1stly, u're assuming the family is Xtian from before the victim is born. U're forgetting there are many instances where the family converts to the Xtian faith later in life. Victim does not have to follow parents in converting to the faith.
2ndly, even if family is xtian from b4 victim is born, the family need not be "on" xtians. As a result victim need not have had the proper family influence with regards to religion. Afterall, many xtians are from families where majority of the family are of another faith. If this is true, why can't the converse be true also? -
"My advice to non-believers or people who disagrees? Say it once, say it twice. If the person does not accept your point of view, fine. Leave it as it is. There is no need to push a point across for the sake of it."Originally posted by gasband:It is all very simple.
We as christians, state our point of view. We believe that Homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sin that you and me will commit. i.e. Lying, cursing etc.... Thus, that is the christian point of view. Homosexuality is as common a sin as any other sins in the christian context. So do we hate LIARS? Nay, then we would be hating ourselves. So the christian context is that we hate the sin, love the sinners. Like what Laoda quotes from Philip Yancey, we are all oddballs, we just wanna help each other.
Then of course, the other camp feels that christians are too insensitive in so called trying to help. And fair enough, there are christians who are too forceful and trying to correct without the love that Jesus Himself would have shown. But of cos, it is entirely the perogative of the person to decide whether or not to heed the advice of the christian. The christian has the right of view just as you have the right to live the lifestyle you want.
My advice to christians? Say it once, say it twice. If the person does not accept your point of view, fine. Leave it as it is. There is no need to push a point across for the sake of it.
My advice to non-believers or people who disagrees? Say it once, say it twice. If the person does not accept your point of view, fine. Leave it as it is. There is no need to push a point across for the sake of it.
even if this means i stand by n watch some self righteous prick hurt others because he thinks he is doing the "right thing".