"Middle zone" Christianity
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This again is related to the question of the balance between works and faith. How on earth does a Christian escape the 2 traps of cheap grace and legalism. Cheap grace is obviously worshipping a false God while legalism really sucks the joy out of being a believer.
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i think most will tend rely on cheap grace when they say that following the ten commandments is impossible.
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I myself also confused which one is traditional Protestant theology and which one is charismatic theology liao.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:i think most will tend rely on cheap grace when they say that following the ten commandments is impossible.
So many people have been telling me the purpose of God giving the 10 commandments is to show the utter failure of Jews in following them, therefore it is impossible for Christians to follow the 10 commandments. -
I can answer the cheap grace part.Originally posted by fallin:This again is related to the question of the balance between works and faith. How on earth does a Christian escape the 2 traps of cheap grace and legalism. Cheap grace is obviously worshipping a false God while legalism really sucks the joy out of being a believer.
Pastor Prince used to say the grace may be cheap but it is not free. So please don't abuse it.
And his analogy was Singapore, can you believe it? Our stability is cheap to young adults (so cheap that we want MM to step down without realizing the loss), but it is not free.
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SameOriginally posted by Icemoon:I can answer the cheap grace part.
Pastor Prince used to say the grace may be cheap but it is not free. So please don't abuse it.
And his analogy was Singapore, can you believe it? Our stability is cheap to young adults (so cheap that we want MM to step down without realizing the loss), but it is not free.
Our stability is so cheap, we become so apathetic to the plights of the earthquake victims, tsunami victims and hurricane victims, and even worse, ridicule their plight as some topics would have shown. -
The 10 commandments were given to show how much one fall short of the standard that GOD has set for us. If one fail one commandment, the punishment is still death, becoz God cannot tolerate sin.Originally posted by Icemoon:I myself also confused which one is traditional Protestant theology and which one is charismatic theology liao.
So many people have been telling me the purpose of God giving the 10 commandments is to show the utter failure of Jews in following them, therefore it is impossible for Christians to follow the 10 commandments.
But through Christ, God sees us as righteous, becoz when he look at us, he is actually looking at Christ and that is only when we are tolerable in his eyes.
We are only redeemed thru Christ, not by the law or any works we do. This is the most important thing Christians should remember. -
Yes, u are the kindest of them all.Originally posted by laurence82:Same
Our stability is so cheap, we become so apathetic to the plights of the earthquake victims, tsunami victims and hurricane victims, and even worse, ridicule their plight as some topics would have shown.
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Why cannot follow? Do u kill? Do u commit adultery? Do u covet? Do u worship other gods? If the Jews could follow at least outwardly, why can't Christians who have the Holy Spirit follow as well? I think what u said arises from Ps Prince's sermons that the Jews couldnt follow the ten commandments but u are wrong. They followed their traditions instead of the ten commandments, so it's not they cannot follow but they followed their own human traditions instead of the tanach.Originally posted by Icemoon:I myself also confused which one is traditional Protestant theology and which one is charismatic theology liao.
So many people have been telling me the purpose of God giving the 10 commandments is to show the utter failure of Jews in following them, therefore it is impossible for Christians to follow the 10 commandments.
Jesus Himself said to love God & to love our neighbour already fulfills the ten commandments in the new covenant. What's so hard abt that? -
We cannot follow the ten commandments on our own strength. We need the Holy Spirit's help. The ten commandments was not given without a reason contrary to the twist given by Ps Prince. But we cannot be too legalistic & forget the true purpose of following the ten commandments which is to love God & to love our neighbours. Would u want to kill your neighbour if u love him? Would u want to worship other gods if u love God?Originally posted by Repented John 2:Why cannot follow? Do u kill? Do u commit adultery? Do u covet? Do u worship other gods? If the Jews could follow at least outwardly, why can't Christians who have the Holy Spirit follow as well? I think what u said arises from Ps Prince's sermons that the Jews couldnt follow the ten commandments but u are wrong. They followed their traditions instead of the ten commandments, so it's not they cannot follow but they followed their own human traditions instead of the tanach.
Jesus Himself said to love God & to love our neighbour already fulfills the ten commandments in the new covenant. What's so hard abt that? -
Hah? Wait. Are u sure Ps Prince said that? He never said grace is cheap. He said grace is NOT cheap bcos it comes at the price of His Son Jesus Christ! & grace is free for everyone on planet earth! I think u heard wrongly. Are u sleeping in church?Originally posted by Icemoon:I can answer the cheap grace part.
Pastor Prince used to say the grace may be cheap but it is not free. So please don't abuse it.
And his analogy was Singapore, can you believe it? Our stability is cheap to young adults (so cheap that we want MM to step down without realizing the loss), but it is not free.
Well your analogy is wrong bcos in the first place your statement was wrong. -
Can we leave Pastor Prince alone? Isn't he criticised enough in the other thread?
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There is no such thing as "cheap grace." By definition, Grace is not only cheap... it is free...Originally posted by fallin:This again is related to the question of the balance between works and faith. How on earth does a Christian escape the 2 traps of cheap grace and legalism. Cheap grace is obviously worshipping a false God while legalism really sucks the joy out of being a believer.
There is no question of "balance between works and faith."
The faith will bring about goods works... period.
If you lack good works, then question the faith, not try to do more good works. -
Agree except the part on balance between works and faith.....what do u mean? But overall i agree with u on that the faith bring abt good works and not the other way round....Originally posted by casino_king:There is no such thing as "cheap grace." By definition, Grace is not only cheap... it is free...
There is no question of "balance between works and faith."
The faith will bring about goods works... period.
If you lack good works, then question the faith, not try to do more good works. -
Hmm... my take on this? The Christian life isn't difficult to live, it is quite impossible. But that's the whole point of it, we wouldn't need Him if we could do it by ourselves.
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The original post was that there must be "balance" between; that is to say that "all faith" and no works is bad and "all works" and no faith is bad. So there must be a balance.Originally posted by laoda99:Agree except the part on balance between works and faith.....what do u mean? But overall i agree with u on that the faith bring abt good works and not the other way round....
When it comes to something like "salvation;" "heaven;" "right with God;" there is simply nothing one can do; nothing one hopes to achieve.
It is all "one way." You cannot please God; you cannot do anything to gain favor.
I do not want to blast your brains with too many things and if you are serious; do think about what I have just wrote and if you disagree even better; that only shows that you are a "critical" person and not a sucker. -
as for middle zone Christians... well the bible is very clear.. they will be spewed from the mouth of God like phlegm.
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This reminds me of a hymn:Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Hmm... my take on this? The Christian life isn't difficult to live, it is quite impossible. But that's the whole point of it, we wouldn't need Him if we could do it by ourselves.
now unto Him
Who is able to you from falling
And present you faultless before
The presence of His glory
With exceeding joy
To the only wise God, Our Saviour
Be glory and majesty
Dominion and power
Both now and forever...
Amen. -
No, the situation is this.Originally posted by Repented John 2:Hah? Wait. Are u sure Ps Prince said that? He never said grace is cheap. He said grace is NOT cheap bcos it comes at the price of His Son Jesus Christ! & grace is free for everyone on planet earth! I think u heard wrongly. Are u sleeping in church?
Well your analogy is wrong bcos in the first place your statement was wrong.
It is very hard to change people's misconception about grace because, as you know, NCC is famous for "cheap grace". The kind of message being preached inside more or less give people the impresson grace is cheap. Even Christians from other churches have this impression.
Also by saying grace is not cheap because it comes at the price of Jesus is shifting the goalpost somehow, because you're changing the focus now to God.
By the way, if grace is free for everyone, then there is this connotation that it is cheap. Use your common sense. (free == low/no price == cheap) -
no such thing. God provided redemption in the OT. I'm surprised many Christians argue otherwise.Originally posted by laoda99:The 10 commandments were given to show how much one fall short of the standard that GOD has set for us. If one fail one commandment, the punishment is still death, becoz God cannot tolerate sin.
The 10 commandments were given as a moral compass to guide mankind. -
But there was no Holy Spirit in the OT.Originally posted by Raptured:We cannot follow the ten commandments on our own strength. We need the Holy Spirit's help.
So the Jews follow on whose strength? -
Wat kind of redemption is granted in the OT?Originally posted by Icemoon:no such thing. God provided redemption in the OT. I'm surprised many Christians argue otherwise.
The 10 commandments were given as a moral compass to guide mankind.
Free grace, based on Christ's merits, and not your own merits.
The law can never take away sins. It can only reveal the sin in our lives.
U can never earn ur way to god. It is Christ's blood who have redeemed us, not the law. To continue to live under the law = death, where in Christ we have LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -
I thot Ps Prince preached we focus on God not on ourselves. How can we focus on ourselves? We are told to remember what Jesus has done for us not what we can do by ourselves. So grace isnt cheap after all. It's ppl who abuse it & treat it as cheap. It's cheap on their parts but expensive on Christ's part. That doesnt negate grace which is not cheap. It costs the dear Saviour's life!Originally posted by Icemoon:No, the situation is this.
It is very hard to change people's misconception about grace because, as you know, NCC is famous for "cheap grace". The kind of message being preached inside more or less give people the impresson grace is cheap. Even Christians from other churches have this impression.
Also by saying grace is not cheap because it comes at the price of Jesus is shifting the goalpost somehow, because you're changing the focus now to God.
By the way, if grace is free for everyone, then there is this connotation that it is cheap. Use your common sense. (free == low/no price == cheap)
If grace is not free, then it's not grace anymore but wages of works! Then we earn our way into heaven! Free = no price but not = cheap! -
Got redemption lah. You read the OT more than I do. If no redemption, then all the Jews mati liao, 'cos all would have failed the test.Originally posted by laoda99:Wat kind of redemption is granted in the OT?
Free grace, based on Christ's merits, and not your own merits.
The law can never take away sins. It can only reveal the sin in our lives.
U can never earn ur way to god. It is Christ's blood who have redeemed us, not the law. To continue to live under the law = death, where in Christ we have LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Jews also never say law can take away sins. Sins can only be forgiven, what's done is done, nothing can change the fact.
Only repentance with a contrite heart can your sins be forgiven. For this is why John the Baptist said:
"Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand!" -
Well on their own strength which they failed miserably.Originally posted by Icemoon:But there was no Holy Spirit in the OT.
So the Jews follow on whose strength?
So they still have to atone for their sins by the temple sacrifices. -
Jesus will be very sad to hear this.Originally posted by laoda99:U can never earn ur way to god. It is Christ's blood who have redeemed us, not the law. To continue to live under the law = death, where in Christ we have LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
'cos He said all the commandments (from your perspective, laws) can be reduced to two:
1. Love your God.
2. Love your neighbours.
And now you say to even try to follow them is death.