the true 'christians'
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There are indeed many seducing spirits and lying wonders around, to be sure.Originally posted by shade343:By saying that, you have just condemned the other groups as "seducing spirits and lying wonders". What makes you think they dont have truth intheir teachings? It is egoistic of you to think that yours is the one and only one and the others are not. -
shady is a universalist .. excuse him.Originally posted by shade343:By saying that, you have just condemned the other groups as "seducing spirits and lying wonders". What makes you think they dont have truth intheir teachings? It is egoistic of you to think that yours is the one and only one and the others are not.
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By saying that, you have just condemned the other groups as "seducing spirits and lying wonders". What makes you think they dont have truth intheir teachings? It is egoistic of you to think that yours is the one and only one and the others are not.
to shade343:
like i said earlier, they claim to be christians yet they deny the fundamentals tat r so clear in the bible...eg. JWs have altered the original bible to suit their doctrine...mormons have added to the bible wif their book of mormons...mainstream christians dun do tat...nt even the catholics or the charismatics...n cults do claim to be the onli one tat is correct...mormons n JWs dun agree wif each other...we christians dun say things like..oh onli presbyterians r saved...or onli anglicans r saved...n no christian church wil tell u they r the onli church at wil be saved...any church tat claim tat is a cult... -
dunno why .. I have this impression people in charismatic church don't read widely. probably the only books they read are those from their church bookshop, that promote similar flavor.Originally posted by laoda99:All I know is, check the bible for reference. If what the pastor says is not in the bible, it is extra-biblical and must be take with caution. I always do that in church but I doubt pple in big charismatic churches do, as they always say:" Pastor XXX says" rather than what the bible says. -
Just a thought.... sometime we cann take things based on 'face values', when some people says Paster XXX says this, its could means "In the personal opinion of Paster XXX,.."Originally posted by laoda99:U know I cannot, but Benny Hinn, he has made such claims which I found weird and to a large extent ridiculous.
All I know is, check the bible for reference. If what the pastor says is not in the bible, it is extra-biblical and must be take with caution. I always do that in church but I doubt pple in big charismatic churches do, as they always say:" Pastor XXX says" rather than what the bible says.
God bless. -
It is hard to know whether what you receive is sound or unsound, just from reading the bible.Originally posted by laoda99:What I am trying to emphasize here is not to cause division, rather than alert pple to the fact that some things said by charismatic pastors are unsound. As Christians we should not be afraid to speak up for things that are not right.
That is why discussion with other christians and reading widely helps.
This is one of the purpose for a forum .. to be accustomed to the wide spectrum of Christian faith. -
for sure they (pastors) seldom say "this is my personal opinion".Originally posted by vince69:Just a thought.... sometime we cann take things based on 'face values', when some people says Paster XXX says this, its could means "In the personal opinion of Paster XXX,.."
God bless.
furthermore it is hard to believe those are their personal opinion, when they preface the sermon with "last night Jesus told me .. "
My god .. even the Pope don't preface his talk with "God told me .. "
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Yes.....especially when they (pastors) say :" God tells me to tell u this"Originally posted by Icemoon:for sure they (pastors) seldom say "this is my personal opinion".
furthermore it is hard to believe those are their personal opinion, when they preface the sermon with "last night Jesus told me .. "
My god .. even the Pope don't preface his talk with "God told me .. "
This is not just a personal opinion anymore. -
This is more authoritative than a papal edict.Originally posted by laoda99:Yes.....especially when they (pastors) say :" God tells me to tell u this"
This is not just a personal opinion anymore.
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Then why does it say in 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.Originally posted by laoda99:BTW, U can never confirm what kind of spirit is telling them or whether there is any spirit telling them. -
For me, test the spirit means refering back to the bible.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Then why does it say in 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
If the bible do not say anything or say anything explicitly abt the issue, it should be taken with caution. I will not simply take any pastor's " god tell me to tell u this" message easily. This is dangerous as pple in big charismatic churches seem to take the word of their senior pastor as absolute, esp when the pastor says it is from god.
No pastor, whether Anglican, Presbyterian or any mainstream church, has told me "god tells me to tell you this". And this should be taken with extreme caution. IMHO, pastors with sound theological background do not say "god tells me to tell u this" readily. This shows that theological education for pastors is necessary and not just a conviction by what one believe is the holy spirit.
And I would like to reiterate the fact that pastors of megachurches, have a greater responsibilty to check what they want to preach to their flock, becoz what they said will influence a lot of people at one time. There is no use apologising for mistakes later becoz the harm is already done.
And again to the "MacChrist" strategy of attracting believers, it will only not keep believers in church. I have personally experienced that and the "good" feeling followed by a sermon which utter sweet words do not stay with me for long (probably only a little while after i have my dinner and shop happily around carrefour, but i still feel empty after that). -
Yah.,... I know, some people also say... "The Holy Spirit reveals this to me...."....Originally posted by Icemoon:for sure they (pastors) seldom say "this is my personal opinion".
furthermore it is hard to believe those are their personal opinion, when they preface the sermon with "last night Jesus told me .. "
My god .. even the Pope don't preface his talk with "God told me .. "
In this, there is only one test, The Holy Spirit will only reveal the things that are already written in the Bible, if this so call revelation is not in line with the Scriptural principles, then its quite clear that the person is either lying or did not hear properly.
God bless. -
laoda99 has carelessly revealed the source of the sermon.Originally posted by laoda99:And again to the "MacChrist" strategy of attracting believers, it will only not keep believers in church. I have personally experienced that and the "good" feeling followed by a sermon which utter sweet words do not stay with me for long (probably only a little while after i have my dinner and shop happily around carrefour, but i still feel empty after that).
coincidentally it is a church which brey is fond of.
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can test one, If they say to you "God tells me to tell u this,..."Originally posted by laoda99:Yes.....especially when they (pastors) say :" God tells me to tell u this"
This is not just a personal opinion anymore.
If God has also already tell this to you before... then this could be a confirmation from God to you.
If God have not tell you this before, my advise is, reject this straight away, its not from God.
Anything, God would never tell you to do anything that is against the Biblical Principles stated in the Bible.
God Bless. -
Originally posted by vince69:---double post
God Bless. -
Never hear properly? God could have done a better job ..Originally posted by vince69:Yah.,... I know, some people also say... "The Holy Spirit reveals this to me...."....
In this, there is only one test, The Holy Spirit will only reveal the things that are already written in the Bible, if this so call revelation is not in line with the Scriptural principles, then its quite clear that the person is either lying or did not hear properly.
God bless.
When God revealed Himself to Apostle Paul, He makes sure Paul get the message so clearly that he can't say "I just experienced a hallucination". -
I did not say God did not do a good job,Originally posted by Icemoon:Never hear properly? God could have done a better job ..
When God revealed Himself to Apostle Paul, He makes sure Paul get the message so clearly that he can't say "I just experienced a hallucination".
I am saying, the hearer may not be paying attention -
This is funny as that was also part of what Jesus did when He was here on earth. How many times did He heal? How did Jesus provide for the 5000? and for the 4000? What about when the nets were so full of fish that the boat began to sink? Then why does it say in psalms 35:27 "Let them shout for joy and be glad, Who favour my rightrous cause; And let them say continually, "Let the Lord be magnified, Who has pleasure in the prosperity of His servant."Originally posted by laoda99:Christians are already deceived and preached a diff doctrine and a different Christ: A Christ which gives health and prosperity readily is not the Christ I believe in.
Also in Psalm 34:10 "...Bu those who seek the Lord shall not lack any good thing."
In Psalm 68:19 "Blessed be the Lord, Who daily loads us with benefits, The God of our salvation."
Also see Ps 118:25 "Save now, I pray, O Lord; O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity."
Then also explain to me Deuteronomy 28:1-14? conditional of course, but nonetheless, it talks about Gods blessings. And it specifically mentions things like increase in our cattle and in our storehouses, which can only be taken as material possessions?
Christ will give us health and prosperity readily upon fulfilment of the conditions which have been set upon us. These conditions are not onerous, they are summed up in this, obey God, observe His commandments.
There are so many biblical things which talk about God's blessing and prosperity for His children. -
I did not say you said God did not do a good job.Originally posted by vince69:I did not say God did not do a good job,
I am saying, the hearer may not be paying attention
I said .. God will make sure the hearer pays attention and there is no excuse for not paying attention.
The rationale is this - there is no black and white, so God will make sure 101% the hearer gets the correct message. -
1. If the bible is our basis, then why are there so many mainstream churches teaching the wrong thing, not just charismatic churches?Originally posted by laoda99:the bible should be our basis....there maybe slight difference in denominations but the most important should be bible as basis....what is not said in the bible we take with discernment....e.g the holy communion for health / wealth gospel
2. Health, and wealth are talked about in the bible. Not linked to communion, but they are talked about. -
But the strange thing is this - there wasn't really any blessing and prosperity for His children until charismatism came into the picture!Originally posted by breytonhartge:This is funny as that was also part of what Jesus did when He was here on earth. How many times did He heal? How did Jesus provide for the 5000? and for the 4000? What about when the nets were so full of fish that the boat began to sink? Then why does it say in psalms 35:27 "Let them shout for joy and be glad, Who favour my rightrous cause; And let them say continually, "Let the Lord be magnified, Who has pleasure in the prosperity of His servant."
Also in Psalm 34:10 "...Bu those who seek the Lord shall not lack any good thing."
In Psalm 68:19 "Blessed be the Lord, Who daily loads us with benefits, The God of our salvation."
Also see Ps 118:25 "Save now, I pray, O Lord; O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity."
Then also explain to me Deuteronomy 28:1-14? conditional of course, but nonetheless, it talks about Gods blessings. And it specifically mentions things like increase in our cattle and in our storehouses, which can only be taken as material possessions?
Christ will give us health and prosperity readily upon fulfilment of the conditions which have been set upon us. These conditions are not onerous, they are summed up in this, obey God, observe His commandments.
There are so many biblical things which talk about God's blessing and prosperity for His children.
How do you explain this? After 2000 years, the Christians finally got the right message? -
OMG .. you are taking the Catholic position now!Originally posted by breytonhartge:1. If the bible is our basis, then why are there so many mainstream churches teaching the wrong thing, not just charismatic churches?
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And err.. how do you know that there was not?Originally posted by Icemoon:But the strange thing is this - there wasn't really any blessing and prosperity for His children until charismatism came into the picture!
How do you explain this? After 2000 years, the Christians finally got the right message? -
I am including the RC's in this too. they most of all.Originally posted by Icemoon:OMG .. you are taking the Catholic position now! -
and please do not take the name of God in vain.Originally posted by Icemoon:OMG .. you are taking the Catholic position now!