If Jesus is a God.......
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I think the father does not have the right to demand, he can only persuade.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:not directly I suppose... but it does suggest the validity of Grace as a system that has to affect, if not hold some sway over the laws of interpersonal conflict as well.
now the question is can the older brother contuine with his grudge and still be in his father's house?
if it's the older brother's inalienable right to hold to offence and not consider for a bit the prodigal's acceptance by the father... does the father have any right to demand anything of this attitude without affecting the notion of justice?
hmm...
It is easy to dispense grace, but can you guarantee repentance by the prodigal son? -
I'm not sure how many Christians actually understand and do that.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:That part nobody should have a beef with.
The simple truth as I believe is this, that if you mess it up with somebody you ought to make it right with that person, and that atonement can be in many physical ways... but they all only have their validity because of the cross.
It is obvious that a attitude of only praying via proxy is defective, and might make the true notion of grace suspect itself... Jesus might as well have sent up Judas or someone else to die for Him instead if that is the low view we take of grace. Obviously the forgiveness does not come through the personal atoning action, but through the grace bought by the perfect sacrifice, but a person who truly grasps the magititude of this sacrifice would want to reconcile, rather then use it as a proxy to avoid interpersonal repentence.
I suspect grace demands many things of us, but in different ways as we would expect of a legal system. It seems to demand a lot more of the heart as well. We ought to be as sad as at the death of the child everytime it is abused.
To them, Jesus is everything. Everything stops after reconcilation with God. Hey, where is the human factor?
Catholics are better. The RCs here told me after the confession with the priest, they're supposed to make it right with the injuried party. -
If u commit murder, the person=dead right?Originally posted by Icemoon:I'm not sure how many Christians actually understand and do that.
To them, Jesus is everything. Everything stops after reconcilation with God. Hey, where is the human factor?
Catholics are better. The RCs here told me after the confession with the priest, they're supposed to make it right with the injuried party.
Whom u make it right?
BTW, the part in blue are sweeping statements. Think u the same as Heng@, anyhow hamtam.....yi zhu gan da fan yi chuan ren..... -
I'm not sure true grace is that easy to dispense, and the reason it is abundant seems more to me an effect of omnipotence then it's actual cheapness. In the same way I am not convinced that life is easy to dispense just because it is abundant here.Originally posted by Icemoon:I think the father does not have the right to demand, he can only persuade.
It is easy to dispense grace, but can you guarantee repentance by the prodigal son?
Of course to omnipotence all this are easy, to I guess I just mooted myself. :p Though I might still objectively argue that grace is not cheap.
Well, the I suspect repentance is a thing of volition, which seems to me an issue of free will now, be it under grace or law, neither can coherce the son to repentence. However they seem to me to provide the framework in which such repentence is possible... the law sets up the rules to conduct this activity, and grace is the safety net onto which the inperfect creature can fall and come back again to adhering with the law.
I do not think the father has the right to demand the older brother forgives the prodigal... but I suspect he has the right to demand that the older loves the younger, and perhaps even for things such as harmony in the house. As with all things, it turns out that personal offence is not such a personal thing after all, with many things staked on it.
The older brother would then have to, if he knows the right thing to do, forgive the prodigal not because it was demanded from him, but because it was indeed the thing to do... for he is too a fallen creature and I suspect that only a perfect creature can truly withold forgiveness without any dire consquences...
Could it be the command to forgive is for our own good, for the law is really far more complex then we suspect? Not it it's form, but in the way it's applied. Could anything but grace make it's pratice perfect by fallen creatures? -
You are engaging in PAP-style rhetoric again.Originally posted by laoda99:If u commit murder, the person=dead right?
Whom u make it right?
BTW, the part in blue are sweeping statements. Think u the same as Heng@, anyhow hamtam.....yi zhu gan da fan yi chuan ren.....
Are you saying if I can't make it right, you can? Can God resurrect that person?
Are those sweeping? I let every one of you Christian readers decide. -
what u say is, when u commit rape, u ask the victim for forgiveness...Originally posted by Icemoon:You are engaging in PAP-style rhetoric again.
Are you saying if I can't make it right, you can? Can God resurrect that person?
Are those sweeping? I let every one of you Christian readers decide.
but when u commit murder, what would u do? -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Hmm... valid.
I'm not sure how many Christians actually understand and do that.
To them, Jesus is everything. Everything stops after reconcilation with God. Hey, where is the human factor?
But then again I do believe that Jesus is indeed everything... and to those who which Jesus is truly everything they would know that He demands of them to reconclie with others in interpersonal sin. Obviously the lack of the human factor is a defect in understanding grace... but those who realize it know what they have to do.
I might not however, be tempted to judge the merit of Christianity based on the merit of it's people... if that was the case one might consider other religions in which merit and virtue really shines in their members. Buddhism might be a good example.
This is of course not to say that merit and virtue are unimportant, but rather that I suspect the merit and virtue demanded of Christians are all but humanly impossible. RC C.K Chesterton did state that the Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting... it has been tried and found too difficult.
It would be so much simpler to just go and live by the law then having to mix in some strange hybrid of grace that perfects the law and run into all the mess and nonsense that comes out of messing up this new thing. It's such a scandal.
But perhaps because... it's true? Or that God is interested in a system that encourages us to be dependent on Him as opposed to our own abilities to make right? -
I do wonder however... how do you reconcile with a person you murdered?
With his family then... but then it would be for your sins against them, robbing them of a loved one.
What about that interpersonal sin of murder, can it then be forgiven? Perhaps a macabre form of asking the spirits of the dead for forgiveness in our prayers?
Or is proxy valid after all? -
when you commit murder, you will be sentenced to death.Originally posted by laoda99:what u say is, when u commit rape, u ask the victim for forgiveness...
but when u commit murder, what would u do?
maybe you can bug the victim for forgiveness in "another world"? -
what if our destination is different???Originally posted by Icemoon:when you commit murder, you will be sentenced to death.
maybe you can bug the victim for forgiveness in "another world"? -
write a letter of apology?Originally posted by laoda99:what if our destination is different???
web conference?
skype? -
fei ge chuan shu....Originally posted by Icemoon:write a letter of apology?
web conference?
skype?
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pls lor .. a first world heaven-hell system surely has first world tele-communication system right?Originally posted by laoda99:fei ge chuan shu.... -
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finally u here....how's the teh today?Originally posted by M©+square: -
Reconciliation and compensation are obviously impossible for murder. Judaism recognizes 3 greatest cardinal sins, of which murder is one. Vindication requires the murderer's death.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:I do wonder however... how do you reconcile with a person you murdered?
With his family then... but then it would be for your sins against them, robbing them of a loved one.
What about that interpersonal sin of murder, can it then be forgiven? Perhaps a macabre form of asking the spirits of the dead for forgiveness in our prayers?
Or is proxy valid after all? -
Obviously vindication requires death, a person has to die for that murder. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life.
Has somebody already has? -
rape also must die rite?
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When we insist on seeing only the standard of barter trade, the concept of money might not make any legal sense to us...
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somebody already has what?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Obviously vindication requires death, a person has to die for that murder. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life.
Has somebody already has? -
Rapist will not die under Singapore law. They might under Islamic law?Originally posted by laoda99:rape also must die rite?
Anyway rape is considered one of the three cardinal sins in Judaism. For any of the cardinal sins,
If person A tells person B to commit that sin against person C, person B is to refuse .. *to the point of death*.
The three cardinal sins are:
1. idolatory (like believing in another god, ie. Jesus Christ?)
2. murder
3. immorality (like rape, incest etc.) -
I went for movie.Originally posted by laoda99:finally u here....how's the teh today?
Been around since 1....but tired went to koon. -
Done what is required to compensate... and maybe even more.Originally posted by Icemoon:somebody already has what? -
then it should be done truly altruistic with no expectation of acknowledgement.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Done what is required to compensate... and maybe even more. -
Was it ever done with an expectation of acknowledgement on the part of the sacrifice? If that was the case He might be very dissapointed.Originally posted by Icemoon:then it should be done truly altruistic with no expectation of acknowledgement.
However it is the individual, be he relying on proxy, by logic, would have to acknowledge this altruism for it to be valid to him.