If Jesus is a God.......
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u sound like the bar chor mee man....Originally posted by Icemoon:You still have the cheek to ask "I call her wat"?
not angry. just a little disappointed with you. still trying to siam .. just like PAP.
Do you need a press secretary to "clarify" for you?
Think u still siam my question...who is Christ to u? Care to clarify....??? Or I will still bug u until u answer -
The sin was not commited against God, first and foremost.Originally posted by laoda99:Christ paid the full price of sin on behalf of mankind to God.
So why is God justified to receive the payment? -
Why is the sin not committed against God? Care to explain...Originally posted by Icemoon:The sin was not commited against God, first and foremost.
So why is God justified to receive the payment?
And u still haven answer my question, siamster!
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God paid the price? Did the victim receive any "compensation";? So God paid the price to who?
Interesting that you should raise this question... I thought for a while and realized that indeed the victim did recieve his compensation.
At the risk of sounding dramatic I would state it as: "two pieces of wood, some nails, and a lot of blood."
The offended might take a place as the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son... the younger son didn't just mess around with his father when he decided to snub the family, wasn't it a snub on the older brother as well? Not to mention various other sins against many other people? Yet when the father decides to take the son back, did he act in wilful ignorance of the offended older brother as well?
Perhaps the prodigal brother has to grovel before the older brother as well? It may very well be what he is required, and right thing, to do, and it is the choice of the older brother to forgive or reject that measure of reconcilation... but would his choice affect his reinstated place in the father's house? -
laoda...
do be nice
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Why is the sin commited against God if let's say you raped someone?Originally posted by laoda99:Why is the sin not committed against God? Care to explain... -
sorry!Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:laoda...
do be nice 
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Hmm.....u mean u rape someone, it is just a sin towards that person and not to God?Originally posted by Icemoon:Why is the sin commited against God if let's say you raped someone? -
erm .. does your example apply? after all the father is the master of the house .. and it is his perogative whether the prodigal son should come back or not mah.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Interesting that you should raise this question... I thought for a while and realized that indeed the victim did recieve his compensation.
At the risk of sounding dramatic I would state it as: "two pieces of wood, some nails, and a lot of blood."
The offended might take a place as the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son... the younger son didn't just mess around with his father when he decided to snub the family, wasn't it a snub on the older brother as well? Not to mention various other sins against many other people? Yet when the father decides to take the son back, did he act in wilful ignorance of the offended older brother as well?
Perhaps the prodigal brother has to grovel before the older brother as well? It may very well be what he is required, and right thing, to do, and it is the choice of the older brother to forgive or reject that measure of reconcilation... but would his choice affect his reinstated place in the father's house? -
It is first and foremost a sin to that person. Therefore you should first and foremost seek forgiveness from that person.Originally posted by laoda99:Hmm.....u mean u rape someone, it is just a sin towards that person and not to God?
Refer to my reply about 70 and 2000 years. When they sinned against God (first and foremost), they suffered for 70 years. When they sinned against fellow human beings, they suffered for 2000 years. -
Where did u get ur conclusion for the part in red? I dun think the bible ever says that.Originally posted by Icemoon:It is first and foremost a sin to that person. Therefore you should first and foremost seek forgiveness from that person.
Refer to my reply about 70 and 2000 years. When they sinned against God (first and foremost), they suffered for 70 years. When they sinned against fellow human beings, they suffered for 2000 years. -
Guess I did violate His plan and intention, as well as His rightful status as the poor lady's Father when I verify and vouchsafe this most vicious and violent violation of volition.Originally posted by Icemoon:Why is the sin commited against God if let's say you raped someone?
The sin is not of physical rape against God, but I suspect of a destruction of what really belongs to God. That is up to Him to forgive... and in the most mind-boggling of things to do he chooses to help me foot the bill for that beasty act (the sin against the individual)... and demands of His daughter to accept it as well.
Stranger still He demands that we eventually end up loving each other as brother and sister would, but I digress.
Another view I might suggest that is of my own logical speculation of how interpersonal sin affects God... it is He after all the sustainer of all reality and existence and demands a certain order of it. Any direct sin on any aspects of his sustained creation would very well be a direct attack on Him... in a way what we do to others we do to Him.
After all that unfortunate young lady may be an individual, but she is not truly an individual in the sense that she is a totally self-contained and self-sustained creation. If that was the case then all my sins against here are well and truly her own offence to keep and to which the cross might very well have no legal effect.
But that is not the case of course, the dear miss turns out to be an existence sustained by His very hand, and in fact her very ability to be hurt and sinned against are made possible by his sustaining of her very existence and free will.
In that light, an attack on this part of his system would consitute a very direct attack on Him (in a sense it is 'raping' God, pardon my inpious language), and also in the way that the cross is valid payment for it all. -
Anyone know about the discovery of the "Gospel of Judas"? think it will change the beliefs in mankind?
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Using the most famous election event as an analogy,Originally posted by laoda99:Hmm.....u mean u rape someone, it is just a sin towards that person and not to God?
PAP was chanting "remove him, remove him".
WP said, "we let the voters decide whether he is innocent." -
hmmm.....i dun think it will do any changesOriginally posted by coppertonered:Anyone know about the discovery of the "Gospel of Judas"? think it will change the beliefs in mankind?
anyway it is not a christian book....but a gnostic's
exciting mebbe, but not really of any value to Christians.... -
That is not a conclusion for goodness sake.Originally posted by laoda99:Where did u get ur conclusion for the part in red? I dun think the bible ever says that.
Can't you tell observation from conclusion? -
Well my dear friend, in order for it to change beliefs it has to be a new and radical discovery that sheds new light on things we might not have known.Originally posted by coppertonered:Anyone know about the discovery of the "Gospel of Judas"? think it will change the beliefs in mankind?
But it turns out it has been known for quite a long time. The only way it could change beliefs in mandkind is if people are easily decieved, want to hear and see what they want to hear and see, and lack a thinking for themselv-
Un oh, come to think of it...
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hmmm....no link lehOriginally posted by Icemoon:Using the most famous election event as an analogy,
PAP was chanting "remove him, remove him".
WP said, "we let the voters decide whether he is innocent." 
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but it sound like conclusion....at least ur own.....Originally posted by Icemoon:That is not a conclusion for goodness sake.
Can't you tell observation from conclusion?
I think bible never says anything which go near ur observation -
Agree in general.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Guess I did violate His plan and intention, as well as His rightful status as the poor lady's Father when I verify and vouchsafe this most vicious and violent violation of volition.
The sin is not of physical rape against God, but I suspect of a destruction of what really belongs to God. That is up to Him to forgive... and in the most mind-boggling of things to do he chooses to help me foot the bill for that beasty act (the sin against the individual)... and demands of His daughter to accept it as well.
Stranger still He demands that we eventually end up loving each other as brother and sister would, but I digress.
Another view I might suggest that is of my own logical speculation of how interpersonal sin affects God... it is He after all the sustainer of all reality and existence and demands a certain order of it. Any direct sin on any aspects of his sustained creation would very well be a direct attack on Him... in a way what we do to others we do to Him.
After all that unfortunate young lady may be an individual, but she is not truly an individual in the sense that she is a totally self-contained and self-sustained creation. If that was the case then all my sins against here are well and truly her own offence to keep and to which the cross might very well have no legal effect.
But that is not the case of course, the dear miss turns out to be an existence sustained by His very hand, and in fact her very ability to be hurt and sinned against are made possible by his sustaining of her very existence and free will.
In that light, an attack on this part of his system would consitute a very direct attack on Him (in a sense it is 'raping' God, pardon my inpious language), and also in the way that the cross is valid payment for it all.
Let's just say if you sin against fellow human beings, God will be heartbroken. -
Is this something like what John Calvin has said:"Every murder is a sin against God?" Think I read somewhere abt that.
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You have eyes but you don't see?Originally posted by laoda99:but it sound like conclusion....at least ur own.....
I think bible never says anything which go near ur observation
I think it is clear at least the circumstances leading to both destructions were different.
While the pre-Babylon Jews were quite godless, the Pharisees, Saducees, Essense etc. certainly were not. -
not directly I suppose... but it does suggest the validity of Grace as a system that has to affect, if not hold some sway over the laws of interpersonal conflict as well.Originally posted by Icemoon:erm .. does your example apply? after all the father is the master of the house .. and it is his perogative whether the prodigal son should come back or not mah.
now the question is can the older brother contuine with his grudge and still be in his father's house?
if it's the older brother's inalienable right to hold to offence and not consider for a bit the prodigal's acceptance by the father... does the father have any right to demand anything of this attitude without affecting the notion of justice?
hmm... -
Not sure about that.Originally posted by laoda99:Is this something like what John Calvin has said:"Every murder is a sin against God?" Think I read somewhere abt that.
But if you murder someone whom God loves as well, then I suppose this can be considered sinning against Him.
This point is quite related to Heng's argument about homosexuality, if you realize. -
That part nobody should have a beef with.Originally posted by Icemoon:Agree in general.
Let's just say if you sin against fellow human beings, God will be heartbroken.
The simple truth as I believe is this, that if you mess it up with somebody you ought to make it right with that person, and that atonement can be in many physical ways... but they all only have their validity because of the cross.
It is obvious that a attitude of only praying via proxy is defective, and might make the true notion of grace suspect itself... Jesus might as well have sent up Judas or someone else to die for Him instead if that is the low view we take of grace. Obviously the forgiveness does not come through the personal atoning action, but through the grace bought by the perfect sacrifice, but a person who truly grasps the magititude of this sacrifice would want to reconcile, rather then use it as a proxy to avoid interpersonal repentence.
I suspect grace demands many things of us, but in different ways as we would expect of a legal system. It seems to demand a lot more of the heart as well. We ought to be as sad as at the death of the child everytime it is abused.