Gnosticism
-
So I tell you that there is a whale that has a horn like rhino and you can be a sucker to believe that it is "real?"Originally posted by Icemoon:Oh well .. I need to show our whales now are not "real".
If someone really discovers that there is such a thing and show proof, only then does it become real... otherwise it is just a fiction of my imagination, get it? Just like you cannot show any proof of the existence of God and until you can show proof of the existence of God, you are talking about delusions at worse and imagination at best. -
I said liao .. if we are living in 33 AD, this kind of proof might still be possible. I say might because in the absence of even budget airlines, I cannot imagine how long we need to travel before we reach Palestine from Singapore.Originally posted by casino_king:So convenient only suckers can accept such nonsense.. ask you to show proof like show proof that whales exists; give all sort of excuses... if you have no proof, just say so and if you like to live in a world of delusion instead of reality, just go ahead, there are so many suckers like you after all.... it is a good thing that the majority are are not.
God does not reveal Himself now like what He did to Moses and Ezekiel. The closest thing we have is the Holy Spirit, which after all is "invisible". (the ghostly apparitions in Indiana Jones is only special effect, I must remind you).
The Holy Spirit cannot be seen, but His effects can be felt and seen. If you want some proof, maybe this is an angle you can research on (instead of demanding God shows Himself in flesh).
No-one is trying to give excuses. If we're claiming pink unicorns exist, then of course the kind of proof will be similar to that of your whales (take pictures and videos like what they did in the movie King Kong). But now we're dealing with God, the kind of proof presented will be different (this is what the plo guy was trying to get across to you).
I think you got to change your mindset a little, yeah?
-
First question.Originally posted by casino_king:If someone really discovers that there is such a thing and show proof, only then does it become real... otherwise it is just a fiction of my imagination, get it? Just like you cannot show any proof of the existence of God and until you can show proof of the existence of God, you are talking about delusions at worse and imagination at best.
Does anyone owe you a proof for the existence of God? I mean, does your science professor force you to accept the existence of God without giving a proof?
Second question.
So what if someone managed to give you a *convincing* proof for God? Will you worship Him? -
So I tell you that a ghost live in your house but because it is ghost you cannr see it. Proof problem, I will draw a picture of the ghost for you.Originally posted by Icemoon:I said liao .. if we are living in 33 AD, this kind of proof might still be possible. I say might because in the absence of even budget airlines, I cannot imagine how long we need to travel before we reach Palestine from Singapore.
God does not reveal Himself now like what He did to Moses and Ezekiel. The closest thing we have is the Holy Spirit, which after all is "invisible". (the ghostly apparitions in Indiana Jones is only special effect, I must remind you).
The Holy Spirit cannot be seen, but His effects can be felt and seen. If you want some proof, maybe this is an angle you can research on (instead of demanding God shows Himself in flesh).
No-one is trying to give excuses. If we're claiming pink unicorns exist, then of course the kind of proof will be similar to that of your whales (take pictures and videos like what they did in the movie King Kong). But now we're dealing with God, the kind of proof presented will be different (this is what the plo guy was trying to get across to you).
I think you got to change your mindset a little, yeah?
If you are sucker enough to accept that, then I will go on and start nonsense like the ghost want you to do this and that and to do this and that requires money and... you get the drift.
Don't be a mentally weak sucker who goes by superstitions and non proofs. -
This is a forum and we are having an intellectual discussion and if you cannot appreciate that, just too bad for you.... somethimes I do this not just for you but also for me by forcing me to crystallise my own thoughts....Originally posted by Icemoon:First question.
Does anyone owe you a proof for the existence of God? I mean, does your science professor force you to accept the existence of God without giving a proof?
Second question.
So what if someone managed to give you a *convincing* proof for God? Will you worship Him? -
I obviously do not have the proof that you need - which I believe is something attainable and physical.Originally posted by casino_king:I have put it so simply to you- show me proof of God's existence like the proof people produce for the existence of whales... what is so difficult to understand about that? Of course it is imaginary if you say something exists that is Omni this and Omni that but is hiding in a place worse than Saddam Hussein in his hole....
The proof that Christians (as well as folks of other faiths) have are not things which you'd consider admissible in the court of casino_king. Hence never the twain shall we meet.
And by the way, I don't believe you'd addressed the question on whether you believe in the existence of the supernatural realm...
I don't believe for a moment anyone will be stumbled by your "musing".
So in reality, I don't know who you are addressing....Christians here don't really care about your chosen philosophy. Non-Christians may cheer you on, but there are not that many here.
My guess is that, perhaps you have too much times in your hands...but then again, it's your own time to waste.
Bottom line is, you are entitled to believe what you believe, and Christians are also entitled to believe what we believe.... in all your arguments on evidences and such - at least accept this basic right, don't you think so? -
You make claims like God is a loving God and is willing to Give Up His Son to DIE a horrible death to "save" mankind... and then goes into hiding and is not even willing to go on TV and clarify his positions and cause people to imagine and hallucinate about what it is.... even Christians have so many denominations because Christians are confused.... yet the one whom you claim to be Omni this and that and is loving to the extreme is not willing to do the decent thing.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I obviously do not have the proof that you need - which I believe is something attainable and physical.
The proof that Christians (as well as folks of other faiths) have are not things which you'd consider admissible in the court of casino_king. Hence never the twain shall we meet.
And by the way, I don't believe you'd addressed the question on whether you believe in the existence of the supernatural realm...
I don't believe for a moment anyone will be stumbled by your "musing".
So in reality, I don't know who you are addressing....Christians here don't really care about your chosen philosophy. Non-Christians may cheer you on, but there are not that many here.
My guess is that, perhaps you have too much times in your hands...but then again, it's your own time to waste.
Bottom line is, you are entitled to believe what you believe, and Christians are also entitled to believe what we believe.... in all your arguments on evidences and such - at least accept this basic right, don't you think so?
Sure, if it makes you happy to live a life of delusions, I have no quarrel with you, but this is a public forum and no innocent person must be allowed to be suckered without hearing the other side of the story....
It is like telling me to stop talking against gambling and if people want to gamble and bankrupt themselves and end up commit suicide... it is their problem and why should I care?... sorry no deal. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
Exactly, why should you care?
You make claims like God is a loving God and is willing to Give Up His Son to DIE a horrible death to "save" mankind... and then goes into hiding and is not even willing to go on TV and clarify his positions and cause people to imagine and hallucinate about what it is.... even Christians have so many denominations because Christians are confused.... yet the one whom you claim to be Omni this and that and is loving to the extreme is not willing to do the decent thing.
Sure, if it makes you happy to live a life of delusions, I have no quarrel with you, but this is a public forum and no innocent person must be allowed to be suckered without hearing the other side of the story....
[b]It is like telling me to stop talking against gambling and if people want to gamble and bankrupt themselves and end up commit suicide... it is their problem and why should I care?... sorry no deal.[/b]
I don't agree with the things people write in bar either.... but their time, their perogative, their rights.
Yup, this is a public forum (like I haven't heard this before? ) but I don't think anyone is being suckered into believing anything we say. The definition of public forum is still being embodied by the theme (as well as the rules) of any individual forum, ie, you don't have to agree with the theme, but at least recognise the rights of the members of the forum on the things they embrace, regardless of how "delusional" these members are deemed to be. I am sorry, but you don't even have the decency to do this.
You still have not answered my question on whether you believe in the supernatural realm.... -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
How many times must I say I have no problem if you want to delude yourself to be happy? Go and read my earlier posts. Yet you say I have no decency, which makes you the indecent one for playing politics...
[b]Exactly, why should you care? I don't agree with the things people write in bar either.... but their time, their perogative, their rights.
Yup, this is a public forum (like I haven't heard this before? ) but I don't think anyone is being suckered into believing anything we say. The definition of public forum is still being embodied by the theme (as well as the rules) of any individual forum, ie, you don't have to agree with the theme, but at least recognise the rights of the members of the forum on the things they embrace, regardless of how "delusional" these members are deemed to be. I am sorry, but you don't even have the decency to do this.
You still have not answered my question on whether you believe in the supernatural realm.... [/b]
What do you call asking people to believe in superstitions instead of basing their beliefs on facts? What do you call asking people to rest in certainties that are not there? That is trying to sucker others.
Those people in bar are not selling anything but you are. I have a moral obligation to tell the buyers to beware but if they still want to buy... well it is up to them, I have done my duty. -
Originally posted by casino_king:How many times must I say I have no problem if you want to delude yourself to be happy? Go and read my earlier posts. Yet you say I have no decency, which makes you the indecent one for playing politics...
Huh? Who's playing politics?
Let's go with your hypothesis that such supertitions are false:Originally posted by casino_king:What do you call asking people to believe in superstitions instead of basing their beliefs on facts? What do you call asking people to rest in certainties that are not there? That is trying to sucker others.
If such "superstitions " are going to make these people in their lifetime, and when they die, there's nothing, it would have helped them in their lifetime. If at the end of life's journey, there is nothing, then such people would still have some happiness when they were alive. If such "hopes" are really false, these people would not be conscious to "discover" that they've been lied to. By that time, nobody cares - or specifically nobody CAN care.
Therefore the realistic hypothesis is:
There is NO GOD - at the end of one's life - nobody cares and nobody knows. You are right but by then, again, nobody cares.
or
There is God and you are wrong. I might be wrong too, if it's the wrong God .
or
There is the Christian God and you are wrong, and I am right.
Realistically, like gambling, people in bar are also "selling" a lifestyle - one filled with promiscuity. For the sake of argument, people reading into bar CAN be lead to believe that ideology in bar is correct. So if you are consistent, if you crusade against gambling, you should crusade against a promiscuious lifestyle.Originally posted by casino_king:Those people in bar are not selling anything but you are. I have a moral obligation to tell the buyers to beware but if they still want to buy... well it is up to them, I have done my duty.
I really don't understand who entrusted you with the moral obligation to tell someone not to do something. Specifically here in EH too? I really have no issue if you do it in Chit Chat, but if you go the Buddhist forum or even Lights of Atlantis, you are infringing on their members' right to believe and "sell" what they want to sell. As much as these philosophies are in contrary to my person belief, I have always respected that right - and I am not being political here, just being a decent human being who respect the rights of others. Can you do that? Regardless of how "delusional" we might sound? Also are you able to not to use deragotory words like "delusion" just because our views differ?
And by the way, if you'd said you "have done your duty", you may get on with your life. Your tour of duty was greatly appreciated.
.... and while you still have not answered my question: I take it that you do not subscribe to the possibility that there is a supernatural realm? -
My duty is like the duty of a life guard... it never ends.....Originally posted by Chin Eng:Realistically, like gambling, people in bar are also "selling" a lifestyle - one filled with promiscuity. For the sake of argument, people reading into bar CAN be lead to believe that ideology in bar is correct. So if you are consistent, if you crusade against gambling, you should crusade against a promiscuious lifestyle.
I really don't understand who entrusted you with the moral obligation to tell someone not to do something. Specifically here in EH too? I really have no issue if you do it in Chit Chat, but if you go the Buddhist forum or even Lights of Atlantis, you are infringing on their members' right to believe and "sell" what they want to sell. As much as these philosophies are in contrary to my person belief, I have always respected that right - and I am not being political here, just being a decent human being who respect the rights of others. Can you do that? Regardless of how "delusional" we might sound? Also are you able to not to use deragotory words like "delusion" just because our views differ?
And by the way, if you'd said you "have done your duty", you may get on with your life. Your tour of duty was greatly appreciated.
.... and while you still have not answered my question: I take it that you do not subscribe to the possibility that there is a supernatural realm?
I just tell my side of the story and if people still want to buy from you, no problem with me... after all you are not exactly selling suicide bombing...
people in bar never threaten and scare people with heaven and hell and ask them to give up 10% of their income just in case... they are selling a lifestyle? Now I have to think about that a little more but my first reaction is what rubbish... but I will give it some more thought. -
Please do.... but let me add some more thoughts for you to ponder:Originally posted by casino_king:Now I have to think about that a little more but my first reaction is what rubbish... but I will give it some more thought.
I do no agree to Christians going into the other forums to preach. That is disrespectful, and I have in the past discourage forumites not to preach in these forums. I think each individual has the right to his own life as to do as he sees fit. I think each individual (like yourself) has the right to disagree. I believe that while EH is a public forum, it is a public forum with a theme. Anyone is free to enter and exchange ideas, but there is fine line between posting comments and becoming a nuisance. If a guest do not agree with the philosophy in this thematic-based forum, the guest has the right not the enter, no need to sound like a broken record. As I see, Chit Chat is probably the only generic forum in SG forums where anything goes. To impose one's view in a thematic-based forum that one adamantly disagree on is really bad form.
We are not discussing on whether we should agree with each theologically, we are talking about how to interact amicably when we disagree, giving the scenario of SGforums, specifically in EH. -
So if some innocent poor sheep accidently comes in and gets trap? Not possible to ignore that. I am replying to you and I am replying to others... I am not preaching. I am having a debate/discussion... not the same as what you implied.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Please do.... but let me add some more thoughts for you to ponder: I do no agree to Christians going into the other forums to preach. That is disrespectful, and I have in the past discourage forumites not to preach in these forums. I think each individual has the right to his own life as to do as he sees fit. I think each individual (like yourself) has the right to disagree. I believe that while EH is a public forum, it is a public forum with a theme. Anyone is free to enter and exchange ideas, but there is fine line between posting comments and becoming a nuisance. If a guest do not agree with the philosophy in this thematic-based forum, the guest has the right not the enter, no need to sound like a broken record. As I see, Chit Chat is probably the only generic forum in SG forums where anything goes. To impose one's view in a thematic-based forum that one adamantly disagree on is really bad form.
We are not discussing on whether we should agree with each theologically, we are talking about how to interact amicably when we disagree, giving the scenario of SGforums, specifically in EH. -
Your assumption is "get trap"? Aside from cultists that crops up once in a while, what harm has mainstream religion (not just Christianity) done to the society? Most religions provide a focus to a moralistic lifestyle and provides a direction for their followers to live by. Sure, you can point out at some overzealous folks who take religion over the cliff, but by and large, serious practitioners of such religions are good and useful citizens.Originally posted by casino_king:So if some innocent poor sheep accidently comes in and gets trap? Not possible to ignore that. I am replying to you and I am replying to others... I am not preaching. I am having a debate/discussion... not the same as what you implied.
To assume that people "get trap" your implication is that these folks are now on their way to be zombified? that they now devoid of independent thoughts?
Sure we are having a debate/discussion, but even then there are rules of engagement... Nobody asked you to police Eternal Hope. No one said you must agree with the philosophies of Christians residents of EH. What's preaching and what's not? A continual and relentless bombardment of ideology is considered as preaching. Being a thematic-based forum, you are asked to respect the tenets of the Christian beliefs. Note my choice of word: it's respect and not agree. If you cannot even agree to disagree, then there is really nothing discuss because it will always begin and end with the word "prove". Also there is no basis for "discussion" because your first assumption is: Christians are delusional. -
I won't accept that unless:Originally posted by casino_king:So I tell you that a ghost live in your house but because it is ghost you cannr see it. Proof problem, I will draw a picture of the ghost for you.
If you are sucker enough to accept that, then I will go on and start nonsense like the ghost want you to do this and that and to do this and that requires money and... you get the drift.
Don't be a mentally weak sucker who goes by superstitions and non proofs.
1. Show me the collaborating evidence. Show me millions of people around the world believe in it too.
2. Show me testimony from people. Show me how this ghost did wonders to their life.
Come .. show me .. show me?
You can't right? So why should I believe in you? -
What are you doing? Shifting the goalpost? Throwing red herring?Originally posted by casino_king:This is a forum and we are having an intellectual discussion and if you cannot appreciate that, just too bad for you.... somethimes I do this not just for you but also for me by forcing me to crystallise my own thoughts....
I asked two very sincere question and instead of attempting to answer, you drift into something totally unrelated.
Yes .. we are having *intellectual* discussion .. good that you know.
So can you please give me an intellectual answer? -
Pot calling the kettle black?Originally posted by Icemoon:What are you doing? Shifting the goalpost? Throwing red herring?
I asked two very sincere question and instead of attempting to answer, you drift into something totally unrelated.
Yes .. we are having *intellectual* discussion .. good that you know.
So can you please give me an intellectual answer? -
Originally posted by casino_king:
Haha .. go on TV and clarify his position?
You make claims like God is a loving God and is willing to Give Up His Son to DIE a horrible death to "save" mankind... and then goes into hiding and is not even willing to go on TV and clarify his positions and cause people to imagine and hallucinate about what it is.... even Christians have so many denominations because Christians are confused.... yet the one whom you claim to be Omni this and that and is loving to the extreme is not willing to do the decent thing.[/b]
I bet you'd check whether it is April 1 or during movie primetime or not.
God still need TV is a joke. Shows that you don't read bible at all. -
so can you please give me an intellectual answer to those 2 questions?Originally posted by casino_king:Pot calling the kettle black?
-
At one time the whole world believed that the world is flat and just because everybody believed that, you too? Sucker....Originally posted by Icemoon:I won't accept that unless:
1. Show me the collaborating evidence. Show me millions of people around the world believe in it too.
2. Show me testimony from people. Show me how this ghost did wonders to their life.
Come .. show me .. show me?
You can't right? So why should I believe in you?
Did wonders to their lives? Now which imaginary God did they attribute the wonders? Kuan Im? Buddha? Lord Krishna? Allah? Fatimah? Rev Moon? The dead Pope? Sucker... -
You call me sucker?Originally posted by casino_king:At one time the whole world believed that the world is flat and just because everybody believed that, you too? Sucker....
Did wonders to their lives? Now which imaginary God did they attribute the wonders? Kuan Im? Buddha? Lord Krishna? Allah? Fatimah? Rev Moon? The dead Pope? Sucker...
If you were living at that "one time", won't you believe the world is flat too?
So you are also the sucker.
They attributed it to the biblical God. -
So it is up to them to atrribute it to anything they want since there is no proof and no proof is required? If they attribute it to Kuam Im you also believe? Sucker...Originally posted by Icemoon:You call me sucker?
If you were living at that "one time", won't you believe the world is flat too?
So you are also the sucker.
They attributed it to the biblical God. -
Haha .. glad to know you didn't refute the point about yourself being the sucker.Originally posted by casino_king:So it is up to them to atrribute it to anything they want since there is no proof and no proof is required? If they attribute it to Kuam Im you also believe? Sucker...
If they attribute to Kuam Im, wo jiang xin jiang yi because I don't know enough Buddhist-Taoism hybrid to comment. At least it won't convince me enough to do the same thing. -
You the one who said many believed so you also believed - that is the true mark of a sucker.Originally posted by Icemoon:Haha .. glad to know you didn't refute the point about yourself being the sucker.
If they attribute to Kuam Im, wo jiang xin jiang yi because I don't know enough Buddhist-Taoism hybrid to comment. At least it won't convince me enough to do the same thing. -
Actually I don't.Originally posted by casino_king:You the one who said many believed so you also believed - that is the true mark of a sucker.
If I follow the many who believed, I'll be a baptized Christian today.