Is smoking a sin?
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yup, I agree, balance is an important issue.Originally posted by vince69:more like a balance speaker is hard to come by..
too serious ... become boring ... people fell asleep ...
too funny ... people laugh ... but risk having the message being diluted ...
too much indepth analysis ... younger christians lost ...
too much simplified preaching ... older christians feels no meat ...
conclusion....
there is no such thing as a perfect preacher that can please everyone, just like there is no perfect church (at least until the Lord's return)
God Bless...
Nonetheless, sensationalistic teaching such as the one here on smoking by Pas Prince is really a matter of being responsible in what one says. This has nothing to do with seriousness, or being funny, or analytical, or oversimplification. It is being totally irresponsible especially when he is attempting to teach a Biblical principle especially when there is no truth in it.
I speak during seminars too, in my professional life, and I inject humour in the things I say, but I will never ever make dubious claim unless I correct or explain the claim. -
let me make it easier,Originally posted by Chin Eng:yup, I agree, balance is an important issue.
Nonetheless, sensationalistic teaching such as the one here on smoking by Pas Prince is really a matter of being responsible in what one says. This has nothing to do with seriousness, or being funny, or analytical, or oversimplification.
It is being totally irresponsible in what one says in a public seminar. I speak during seminars too, in my professional life, and I inject humour in the things I say, but I will never ever make dubious claim unless I correct or explain the claim.
when I said, we have a good laugh, I am saying, he is joking when he is saying this.
God Bless. -
Originally posted by vince69:bad me... just realised I did put this into my post earlier...
anyway, one thing about P. Prince is that he have this habit of joking over the pupit (sometimes I feel he joke way too muchsometimes when this happen I really feel like going to the front to give him 2 tight slap to snap out of it), but whenever he does this, he also will make it clear that he is joking, and the statement is not to be taken too seriously.
God bless probably... but you will guys like Raptured taking it all too seriously. -
Originally posted by Chin Eng: probably... but you will guys like Raptured taking it all too seriously.
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up to people to decide lah...Originally posted by Chin Eng: probably... but you will guys like Raptured taking it all too seriously. -
Someone should invite Unker as guest speaker during Sunday service.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I speak during seminars too, in my professional life, and I inject humour in the things I say, but I will never ever make dubious claim unless I correct or explain the claim.
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To which then, I think he needs to take a long good look at himself. There will always be people like raptured who take things too seriously, and this will apply no matter who he listens to or which church he attends, he cannot discern what is joke and what is fact and he will keep making this mistake until he decides to take stock of his own attitude and his own thought processes. I do not think what ps prince said during that particular sermon was OTT. Most natural NORMAL people would have understood it as a joke. I do no think that ps prince is in any way irresponsible when he preaches. He does consider what he says. Sometimes he can tell really corny jokes, but hey, we all do that too....Originally posted by Chin Eng: probably... but you will guys like Raptured taking it all too seriously.
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Originally posted by Icemoon:Someone should invite Unker as guest speaker during Sunday service.
The church should be afraid.... very afraid.... -
when and where hah? I also want to attend, can?Originally posted by Icemoon:Someone should invite Unker as guest speaker during Sunday service. -
You can request your church to invite him on Sunday .. hahaOriginally posted by vince69:when and where hah? I also want to attend, can? -
I am not addressing the issue if smoking is a sin or not. I don't know Ps Prince and have never heard his sermon, and certainly not this particular sermon on smoking. But reading what Raptured said here, Ps Prince is saying that "God did not create people to smoke, otherwise He would (have) create(d) a smoke chimney for a nose." This is the message. Unless this is taken out of context from the main message, I can't see whats wrong with this statement. I have not heard the full message so I can't say if this is taken out of context.Originally posted by Raptured:How do you prove smoking is not a sin then?
If smoking not sin, will it harm your body? Sin is something you do which is out of the will of God for your body, mind, soul, spirit etc. God did not create people to smoke. I remember Ps Prince said in one of his sermons, if God created people to smoke, He would create a smoke chimney for a nose. Imagine your nose pointing upwards like a smoke stack.
The only reason why anybody could laugh is taking the last sentence" imagine your nose pointing upwards like a smoke stack."
why should there be a doubt that Ps Prince could be an irresponsible speaker? am I missing something here?
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incidentally, my colleagues and i are doing this smoking cessation program at our workplace. we source for a good program and make it avaliable for smokers who wish to participate - at a highly subsidised rate. so it was done on the basis that we recognised smoking harms our health but also on the principle that it is up to the individual / voluntary.
similarly, sin is always tied to the intention / motive of a person - not so much of the act or the method. Well, a knife can kill but also mend (in ops theatre).
Knowing that smoking harms our body, but we want to start up - we sin. But afterwhich, if we repent and wish to quit but physiologically, couldnt - are we then "sinning continously ?" Personally, i dont think God see it so.
To me, i have more issues with people smoking into your face, knowing that 2nd hand smoke causes you harm, then people putting down their pride to admit that they do smoke and wish to quit but found it difficult. The latter, i think are more Godly in their ways than those who just talk. -
I wish you success in this.Originally posted by klydeer:incidentally, my colleagues and i are doing this smoking cessation program at our workplace. we source for a good program and make it avaliable for smokers who wish to participate - at a highly subsidised rate. so it was done on the basis that we recognised smoking harms our health but also on the principle that it is up to the individual / voluntary.
similarly, sin is always tied to the intention / motive of a person - not so much of the act or the method. Well, a knife can kill but also mend (in ops theatre).
Knowing that smoking harms our body, but we want to start up - we sin. But afterwhich, if we repent and wish to quit but physiologically, couldnt - are we then "sinning continously ?" Personally, i dont think God see it so.
To me, i have more issues with people smoking into your face, knowing that 2nd hand smoke causes you harm, then people putting down their pride to admit that they do smoke and wish to quit but found it difficult. The latter, i think are more Godly in their ways than those who just talk. -
Thank you Vince. With God's help, its been good - with 4 out of 5 quitted and 1 cutting to 1 stick per day. still have to monitor of course as there are chances of going back to it.Originally posted by vince69:I wish you success in this. -
True, They will need a lot of encouragement to keep the smoke out.Originally posted by klydeer:Thank you Vince. With God's help, its been good - with 4 out of 5 quitted and 1 cutting to 1 stick per day. still have to monitor of course as there are chances of going back to it. -
Both Vince and Brey had already stated that Pas Prince jokes (maybe too much) and giving the benefit of doubt, I will accept their explanation at face value.Originally posted by sgdiehard:why should there be a doubt that Ps Prince could be an irresponsible speaker? am I missing something here?
....but let me explain my assessment, since you asked....
....on the assumption that Pas Prince is NOT joking and is trying to make a point to his congregation on God's intention is NOT for people to smoke and that the prove is that the human anatomy is NOT designed to smoke..... there are actual claims that:
men is not designed to walk on twos as the back bone is not designed to stand upright. men is not designed to be vegetarian because the coating of the teeth of herbivore are actually stronger and thicker.
I am not privy to the CONTEXT nor the CLIMATE of the event when Pas Prince made that remark. Gathering from the initial posting by Raptured, there was no qualifying statement that Pas Prince was making a joke.
Going back to the assumption that the remark is not made in jest, that would be totally irresponsible because realistically, all the things that man design or make is towards making them either anatomically friendly or functionally beneficial (short or long term) to humankind. Anything not anatomically friendly or functionally beneficial will very soon be redundant. It has nothing to do with whether the humankind is adept to using them or not.
We might as well say that God did not intend for us to eat oily food because our body cannot get rid of it.
......but having said all that, I reiterate, the folks from NCC had already provide the background information on the context of the statement. I will also agree that there will be some over-zealous individuals that may read too much too soon on any message. -
I only do product seminars...... done them in Hong Kong, China, Philippines, Indonesia, Singapore..... don't have the theological training to do churches... ha ha....Originally posted by vince69:when and where hah? I also want to attend, can? -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
all that said, i think that because we are fallen and have sin, what God has meant for GOOD we (man) have perverted for evil.
Both Vince and Brey had already stated that Pas Prince jokes (maybe too much) and giving the benefit of doubt, I will accept their explanation at face value.
....but let me explain my assessment, since you asked....
....on the [b]assumption that Pas Prince is NOT joking and is trying to make a point to his congregation on God's intention is NOT for people to smoke and that the prove is that the human anatomy is NOT designed to smoke..... there are actual claims that: men is not designed to walk on twos as the back bone is not designed to stand upright. men is not designed to be vegetarian because the coating of the teeth of herbivore are actually stronger and thicker.
I am not privy to the CONTEXT nor the CLIMATE of the event when Pas Prince made that remark. Gathering from the initial posting by Raptured, there was no qualifying statement that Pas Prince was making a joke.
Going back to the assumption that the remark is not made in jest, that would be totally irresponsible because realistically, all the things that man design or make is towards making them either anatomically friendly or functionally beneficial (short or long term) to humankind. Anything not anatomically friendly or functionally beneficial will very soon be redundant. It has nothing to do with whether the humankind is adept to using them or not.
We might as well say that God did not intend for us to eat oily food because our body cannot get rid of it.
......but having said all that, I reiterate, the folks from NCC had already provide the background information on the context of the statement. I will also agree that there will be some over-zealous individuals that may read too much too soon on any message.[/b]
if you ever want to hear that particular sermon, let me know, I have a CD recording of the whole of it. I really do not see how raptured could get it so wrong when 99.9% of the people during the service probably understood the context and climate of it. Just my opinion and I have only heard this through the CD's whilst not being there.
BTW, our body needs certain types of oil(fat) to function properly, it is the excess of anything that our bodies cannot cope with. In moderation, our bodily systems have been designed to cope with a lot of things. -
I agree.... as we all know our wonderful human body is a wonderful chemical processing factory and will process even small amount of harmful ingestions.Originally posted by breytonhartge:BTW, our body needs certain types of oil(fat) to function properly, it is the excess of anything that our bodies cannot cope with. In moderation, our bodily systems have been designed to cope with a lot of things. The moment I typed my "oily" analogy, I know some smart folks will come back with your kind of reply.
So going back to topic, the issue is NOT whether any food is bad for the body or not, but whether it is sinful or not. To cite health reason for avoidance of a food group merely placing the argument back on the health platform. To argue something as "sinful" it must go beyond health reasons.
....but seeing that it's all a joke..... hmmm...
....my granddad passed away at a ripe old age of 90+, smoked a pack a day, was never sick till the one time he needed a doctor, he passed away a few days after that.... hmmmm.... maybe it was just good pure unadulterated authentic China blood.
BTW, I don't need the audio file, your word (plus Vince's) is good enough.... -
Could not resist on the oily part...sorry, but that said, my great grand mother died at the age of 90+ too and she smoked a pack a day as well. Shows that the older folks are so much hardier than we are.Originally posted by Chin Eng:....my granddad passed away at a ripe old age of 90+, smoked a pack a day, was never sick till the one time he needed a doctor, he passed away a few days after that.... hmmmm.... maybe it was just good pure unadulterated authentic China blood. -
So you are trying to sell products?Originally posted by Chin Eng:I only do product seminars...... done them in Hong Kong, China, Philippines, Indonesia, Singapore..... don't have the theological training to do churches... ha ha....
If so, then same thing mah. Sell ideas sell product also selling. -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
Both Vince and Brey had already stated that Pas Prince jokes (maybe too much) and giving the benefit of doubt, I will accept their explanation at face value.
....but let me explain my assessment, since you asked....
....on the [b]assumption that Pas Prince is NOT joking and is trying to make a point to his congregation on God's intention is NOT for people to smoke and that the prove is that the human anatomy is NOT designed to smoke..... there are actual claims that: men is not designed to walk on twos as the back bone is not designed to stand upright. men is not designed to be vegetarian because the coating of the teeth of herbivore are actually stronger and thicker.
I am not privy to the CONTEXT nor the CLIMATE of the event when Pas Prince made that remark. Gathering from the initial posting by Raptured, there was no qualifying statement that Pas Prince was making a joke.
Going back to the assumption that the remark is not made in jest, that would be totally irresponsible because realistically, all the things that man design or make is towards making them either anatomically friendly or functionally beneficial (short or long term) to humankind. Anything not anatomically friendly or functionally beneficial will very soon be redundant. It has nothing to do with whether the humankind is adept to using them or not.
We might as well say that God did not intend for us to eat oily food because our body cannot get rid of it.
......but having said all that, I reiterate, the folks from NCC had already provide the background information on the context of the statement. I will also agree that there will be some over-zealous individuals that may read too much too soon on any message.[/b]
Thank you very much. Now i know what your position is.
I won't call those who react too much too soon "over-zealous". These are people who interpret others words with their own opinion. In short, putting words into other people's mouth.
It now become clear to me that the pastor who spoke for the good of the audience in general is not being irresponsible but anybody who quoted or misquoted him to suit their own agenda is being irresponsible. -
When one is born with defective looks is it God's fault or God's intent? Same here. God did not intend to create people who look bad. God definitely does not take pleasure in painful diseases inflicted on his creation. These things happen bcos we live in a sinful world. & the curse of Adam brought abt all these things not God. So yes, God created men for his pleasure but no God doesn't create men to be born ugly or be sick. It wasnt his original intent.Originally posted by M©+square:Heh....let me push a notch up.
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (KJV)
God create men for His pleasure,
so does created being born with defective looks pleasure God?
Does God take pleasure in painful diseases inflicted onto his creation?
I'm not here to question God's intent.
I just don't agree with JP's(or your own) presentation, a weak statement.
Similarly God did not create people to smoke. -
I wonder how smokers will feel when Ps Prince joked like this. Will they also laugh? Will they feel stupid or mocked? Ps Prince even talked abt putting the cancer stick into one's mouth, implying smokers are foolish. He even said the devil uses smokers who have smoked a lot but is still living healthily to a ripe old age but aren't Christians to tempt Christian smokers to smoke since nothing happened to these people. & once these Christians smoke, the devil will take away their lives or give them disease. You can verify on the audio CD for yourself.Originally posted by breytonhartge:all that said, i think that because we are fallen and have sin, what God has meant for GOOD we (man) have perverted for evil.
if you ever want to hear that particular sermon, let me know, I have a CD recording of the whole of it. I really do not see how raptured could get it so wrong when 99.9% of the people during the service probably understood the context and climate of it. Just my opinion and I have only heard this through the CD's whilst not being there.
BTW, our body needs certain types of oil(fat) to function properly, it is the excess of anything that our bodies cannot cope with. In moderation, our bodily systems have been designed to cope with a lot of things. -
Why was he telling that joke in the first place? To tell the smokers what they were doing is wrong. This is is basic premise or why would he tell this joke? Sometimes people use jokes to defuse the tension instead of barking at the smoker to change. His style is not to use angry language like: SMOKING IS A SIN! IF YOU SMOKE YOU SIN! This is the blunt fiery style of certain preachers. If Ps Prince start barking & shouting, i think a lot of people will leave his church.Originally posted by breytonhartge:To which then, I think he needs to take a long good look at himself. There will always be people like raptured who take things too seriously, and this will apply no matter who he listens to or which church he attends, he cannot discern what is joke and what is fact and he will keep making this mistake until he decides to take stock of his own attitude and his own thought processes. I do not think what ps prince said during that particular sermon was OTT. Most natural NORMAL people would have understood it as a joke. I do no think that ps prince is in any way irresponsible when he preaches. He does consider what he says. Sometimes he can tell really corny jokes, but hey, we all do that too....
He uses the joke to make the smoker feel stupid but not offended with him which will then make the smoker want to change on his own. This is a good tactic without offending the smokers too much.