Gospel of Judas
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So Christian Mystics believed they can become God?
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No, that would be a deluded thinking - a super egoic thinking that will totally impede a mystic's union with God. Rather, Christ takes over you. Or rather, you are totally submitted to God.Originally posted by laoda99:So Christian Mystics believed they can become God?
From that website -....From there, the mystic heart is seen in the letters of the apostles: Paul reached the divinized state of losing his "self": I no longer live, but Christ lives in me! (Gal. 2.20) James wrote that every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of Lights, in whom there is no variation nor shadow of turning. (Jas. 1.17) Peter proclaimed that Christ even descended to hell to liberate imprisoned souls, (1 Pet. 3.19) and John understood the most sublime truth of God's essence: God is Love! (1 Jn. 4.8,16). This is only the beginning. Every century has been influenced by Christian mystics—from apostles and martyrs, Church Fathers and Desert Mothers, to monks and nuns of religious orders, to the lay mystics—men and women and boys and girls in every century, in every denomination, in every walk of life.....
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Hi Vince,Originally posted by vince69:Hi,
The following is my personal conviction, there may be others that may not agree,
I total disagree with this teaching of 'Christian' Mysticism, I put the quotes there, because I do not think they are Christian at all, most if not all of the quotes there are taken out of context.
example:
John 10:30 quoted here,
the background on this is when the Jews asked Jesus if He is the Christ.
and here is His answer
John 10:25-30
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
Noticed that of the whole answer that Jesus gave, only 1 verse is quoted and the other 5 is omitted?
This is a sure way to take things out of context, and twist the answer to suits to anyone's fancy.
Here, Jesus is not talking about the union of God and humankind, the whole conversation Jesus had with the Jews here to to show/tell them that He (Jesus) is sent by God.
I do not see any contradictions with what Jesus said.
Actually there is no contradictions of Christian mysticism with mainstream Christianity since Christian mysticism is about fully submitting, surrendering to God.
Also, there are different levels of emphasis on different gospels.
Hmm... nice chat. gtg, gd nite. -
I find the documentary itself quite good, machiam like watching mystery thriller.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:How was it? How do you find it?
Personally, I don't find the producers that biased.
I didn't know they use that room-sized machine to do carbon dating.
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Hi, I know you are just quoteing the website, so no fault of yours here,Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
All these verses are taken out of context, the thing is this, when we study the Bible verses, we do not just take a verse here and half a verse there and says whatever is whatever,
1) we need to look at the verses before and after
2) we need to understand, the background in which these were written, like who is/are the audience, under what circumstances are these made...etc
My objective is simple, I fully reject this teaching of "Christian" Mysticism.
I urge all who read this or intend to read about this to really check the Bible, really study those verse they quote, and make your own independant conclusion on whether this teaching is inline with what the Bible is teaching.
Do Remember this, God never contradict Himself. -
I understand what you meant - and I find no contradictions with what the verses before and after it said.Originally posted by vince69:Hi, I know you are just quoteing the website, so no fault of yours here,
All these verses are taken out of context, the thing is this, when we study the Bible verses, we do not just take a verse here and half a verse there and says whatever is whatever,
1) we need to look at the verses before and after
2) we need to understand, the background in which these were written, like who is/are the audience, under what circumstances are these made...etc
My objective is simple, I fully reject this teaching of "Christian" Mysticism.
I urge all who read this or intend to read about this to really check the Bible, really study those verse they quote, and make your own independant conclusion on whether this teaching is inline with what the Bible is teaching.
Do Remember this, God never contradict Himself.
A mystic's understanding, or a person totally in union with God, may have a different interpretation with what the Bible says - because of his own experience.
Same texts, but different level of understandings. -
I see.. glad to hear thatOriginally posted by Icemoon:I find the documentary itself quite good, machiam like watching mystery thriller.
Personally, I don't find the producers that biased.
I didn't know they use that room-sized machine to do carbon dating. 
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My personal conviction as a christian is this, the Bible is the written word of God, and is good for teaching and correcting.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I understand what you meant - and I find no contradictions with what the verses before and after it said.
A mystic's understanding, or a person totally in union with God, may have a different interpretation with what the Bible says - because of his own experience.
Same texts, but different level of understandings.
Anyone who claims to speak the word of God, be it sourced from own experience or spirit or ghost or extraterrestrial or whatever they call it, but offer a different interpretation with what the Bible says, is not from God.
Pls note that the verses quoted below are verses that are being taken from all over the Bible piecemail together, what is needed is to go to each and everyone of them and read them in their own context, which are really all talking about different things.....From there, the mystic heart is seen in the letters of the apostles: Paul reached the divinized state of losing his "self": I no longer live, but Christ lives in me! (Gal. 2.20) James wrote that every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of Lights, in whom there is no variation nor shadow of turning. (Jas. 1.17) Peter proclaimed that Christ even descended to hell to liberate imprisoned souls, (1 Pet. 3.19) and John understood the most sublime truth of God's essence: God is Love! (1 Jn. 4.8,16). This is only the beginning. Every century has been influenced by Christian mystics—from apostles and martyrs, Church Fathers and Desert Mothers, to monks and nuns of religious orders, to the lay mystics—men and women and boys and girls in every century, in every denomination, in every walk of life.....
here is the full verse of Gal 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
and Gal 2:15-21 is about Justification by by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
James 1:17 (read in context 1:11-17) focus is on our attitude when handling temptation
Gal 2:15-21
15 We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners,
16 yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.
17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we ourselves were found to be sinners, is Christ then an agent of sin? Certainly not!
18 But if I build up again those things which I tore down, then I prove myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.
1Peter 3:19 (read in context 3:14-22) is about suffering for righteousness sake, and verse 19 is part of the same sentence that spans from verse 18-20 which with verse 21,22 is about the death and resurrection of Christ.
1 John 4 should be read in the entire chapter and not as 2 half sentences.
the whole chapter is this, that God manifest His love for us by giving to us, His Son that we might live through Him (received salvation), not because we had love God, but God first loved us, and if God so loved us, we ought to also love one another.
9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. -
I support Vince's view.Originally posted by vince69:Hi, I know you are just quoteing the website, so no fault of yours here,
All these verses are taken out of context, the thing is this, when we study the Bible verses, we do not just take a verse here and half a verse there and says whatever is whatever,
1) we need to look at the verses before and after
2) we need to understand, the background in which these were written, like who is/are the audience, under what circumstances are these made...etc
My objective is simple, I fully reject this teaching of "Christian" Mysticism.
I urge all who read this or intend to read about this to really check the Bible, really study those verse they quote, and make your own independant conclusion on whether this teaching is inline with what the Bible is teaching.
Do Remember this, God never contradict Himself.
The gnostic gospels teaches many things different from mainstream christianity, such as the body is evil, and that the soul in order to be "liberated" the person must die. It also teaches human reproduction is evil as it continues the vicious cycle of being "trapped" in the body. All these cannot be found in mainstream Christianity, and in a large sense, heretical, which is why they were not included in the bible canon by the church fathers.
What the bible teaches is sufficient for Christians. The gnostic gospels may be of value to pple who are into mysticism, but definitely not of significant value to Christians and probably even contrary to Christian teachings. I am against elaine pagels' idea that gnostic gospels are for advanced learning in Christianity.
In this age of apostasy, it is important for Christians to discern what is truth and what belong to our adversary, the evil one.
I also dun blame Eternal Now becoz he is just quoting from website, and he is not a Christian. -
Yes, I find no contradictions to the bible - you can quote me the entire bible also nevermindOriginally posted by vince69:
and also your interpretation.
But I must remind you that what you said is also your interpretation, and throughout history and now there are a lot of different interpretations of the bible - otherwise there would not be so many different denominations in Christianity. -
hmm....Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes, I find no contradictions to the bible - you can quote me the entire bible also nevermind and also your interpretation.
But I must remind you that what you said is also your interpretation, and throughout history and now there are a lot of different interpretations of the bible - otherwise there would not be so many different denominations in Christianity.
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Pls also note that I am quoting the same verses used in the website, but in itself as a whole not a few word here and there.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes, I find no contradictions to the bible - you can quote me the entire bible also nevermind and also your interpretation.
But I must remind you that what you said is also your interpretation, and throughout history and now there are a lot of different interpretations of the bible - otherwise there would not be so many different denominations in Christianity.
example from the post from you, the meaning will be entirely different if I were to do the same,
"contradictions to the bible .... the entire bible"
see, once I did this, the entire meaning of your post became distorted, and this is what I am trying to point at when people (ie. the website) takes things out of context by choosing which verse/which part of a verse to quote to justify themselves.
Once again, I urge all to go check it out from the Bible to review those verses used in its entire context and structure and draw your own conclusion.
Thanks
edited... correction to spelling mistakes -
Yes, and I replied you in the very beginning:
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
I understand what you meant - and I find no contradictions with what the verses before and after it said.
A mystic's understanding, or a person totally in union with God, may have a different interpretation with what the Bible says - because of his own experience.
Same texts, but different level of understandings. -
Yes, of course. That would certainly be occult and suspicious. But as to one's own experience, that experience has nothing to do with 'sourced from other beings' - but his own experience of unity with God, and not in the sense of communicating in words with some other persons.Originally posted by vince69:My personal conviction as a christian is this, the Bible is the written word of God, and is good for teaching and correcting.
Anyone who claims to speak the word of God, be it sourced from own experience or spirit or ghost or extraterrestrial or whatever they call it, but offer a different interpretation with what the Bible says, is not from God.
From the website:A common misconception about mysticism is that it's about "mystical experiences,"; and there are many volumes on such experiences in religious literature. But true mysticism is not focussed on "experiences" (which come and go) but with the lasting experience of God, leading to the transformation of the believer into union with God.
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Blind men, who never had any idea there was such a thing called sight are feeling around and they chance upon an elephant which has for some reason decided to let them touch it.
Some blind men touch the tail, and they think that it is a brush.
Some feel the tusk, and think that it is the tip of the spear.
Some feel the ears, and think that it is a curtain.
Based on their personal notions, they make their different conclusions about the elephant... some think it is a tool of art, others a weapon, and some more a thing to deconrate windows. Obviously they are all touching one real truth, but have different views on it based on their experience.
Along comes a man who can see, and knows what the elephant is. He tells them what the elephant is, and what it is not. Of course the choice now falls on the blind men on what to make out of it... some of them might still insist on viewing the elephant through their old paradigms... some might listen to the sighted man and but still rely on taking in that truth through their personal viewpoints, that the elephant ought to be used for painting, a weapon of war, or a wall decoration.
There might be some who decide however, to trust the sighted man entirely, and listen despite having little idea of what he could be talking about. In this case the elephant is in a wild safari and that sooner or later there are lions who are going to find the blind men. The real issue, though lost on the blind men of course, is to avoid the lions.
Some might still insist on staying behind to see what they can paint (in blind art) with the elephant's tail. Others might start to figure out how to train the elephant for war. Yet others are more worried about how to hang the elephant on their windows.
There are some however, who decide to follow the sighted man and leave the danger area of the safari.
What I wonder, is the moral of the story? -
To have own personal experience with God/Holy Spirit is one thing, something we can neither prove or disprove, but to use this personal experience to re-interpret the Scriptures (ie. Bible) is definitely a no-no, for in this is how cults are born.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
My biggest concerns in regards to the website is this, the verses from the Bible it so "quoted" to support its doctrine are mostly if not all are taken out of context from its original intents, and worse, a lot of them is not even quoted fully (meaning, a few word and a few word there and not the full sentance at all), taking only the part of those verses that on surface seems to support their stand but conviently ommit the rest of the sentence. This is a gross miss-respresentation and simply not ethical.
Let me say it again for the third time, before anyone make any decision on this, pls for your own sake, go take these verses "quoted"/mentioned there to support their reasoning, go to the Bible, lookup these verses and see if what is said about these verses is true/false and then make a informed personal decision for your self. -
Originally posted by vince69:
I shouldnt say 're-interprete' but different level of understanding.
To have own personal experience with God/Holy Spirit is one thing, something we can neither prove or disprove, but to use this personal experience to re-interpret the Scriptures (ie. Bible) is definitely a no-no, for in this is how cults are born.
Anyway the verses you quoted me doesnt contradict at all.My biggest concerns in regards to the website is this, the verses from the Bible it so "quoted" to support its doctrine are mostly if not all are taken out of context from its original intents, and worse, a lot of them is not even quoted fully (meaning, a few word and a few word there and not the full sentance at all), taking only the part of those verses that on surface seems to support their stand but conviently ommit the rest of the sentence. This is a gross miss-respresentation and simply not ethical.
I believe there are better sites than that on Christian mysticism - I just did a quick search on google, clicked on a random link to give you all
Let me say it again for the third time, before anyone make any decision on this, pls for your own sake, go take these verses "quoted"/mentioned there to support their reasoning, go to the Bible, lookup these verses and see if what is said about these verses is true/false and then make a informed personal decision for your self. -
ok... seems like your decision is made, I shall stop debating with you on this.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I believe there are better sites than that on Christian mysticism - I just did a quick search on google, clicked on a random link to give you all
I would still urge everyone here to go check it out, compared the verses quoted with the source; ie, the Bible, before making a personal informed opinion/decision. -
Taken from National Geographic http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/gospel/learn.html
OTHER GNOSTIC TALES
The Passion
The event at the center of orthodox Christianity—Jesus's crucifixion—was radically reinterpreted by the Gnostics. Rather than a sacrificial death, or atonement, that frees believers from sin, the destruction of Jesus's body in the Gospel of Judas and other Gnostic texts frees his divine soul to rejoin God. But the Gnostics departed even further from orthodox views of Jesus's suffering and death. Some of their writings say that although Jesus looked as though he inhabited a physical body, this was only an illusion. He was a divine being who could appear in many different forms, like that of a child in the Gospel of Judas. Other Gnostic writings say that while a human being named Jesus did actually die, the divine part of him, or the Christ, did not. Instead this divine part descended into Jesus at his baptism and departed his body just before Jesus's death on the cross, when he uttered the words, "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" Still other Gnostic writings say that someone else entirely—perhaps Simon of Cyrene, described as having briefly carried the cross—was put to death in place of Jesus, while he remained alive, laughing at the blindness of those who tried to kill him.
Cain and Abel
In the Old Testament, Cain kills his brother Abel and is cursed by God. But in Gnostic texts Cain appears as a hero. Why celebrate a murderer? Because Gnostics saw the Old Testament God as a lower deity, a power crazed demiurge, who created a flawed physical world that imprisons human souls. Salvation for them meant escaping the physical realm to be reunited with the true supreme being. To Gnostics, any defiance against the false creator god was an heroic act. So one school of Gnostics celebrated Cain's murder of Abel, whose offering of lambs the Old Testament God favored over Cain's offering of crops. In the same way, The same school celebrated the people of Sodom, the city that the Old Testament God destroys after its people try to rape visiting angels. These Gnostics were not embracing murder or rape, they were identifying with those who rebelled against the Old Testament God.
Karen E. Lange -
Actually I was thinking, can we consider the gnostics as Christians at all?
Think they are similiar to the macionites, a cult who believe the old testament writes abt a evil lower god known as the demuirge, while the god of the new testament is the good higher god who sent Jesus.
Somehow I think these pple cannot recouncilate between the old and the new testament that they form different theories. Chinese say:" Zou Huo Ru Mo"....
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DID YOU KNOW?
The early Christians known as Gnostics, whose beliefs are reflected in the Judas gospel, were not a homogeneous group; scholars even debate whether the many strains of Gnosticism should be lumped together under one banner. The Gnostic idea that individuals carry a spark of the divine within them may well have existed before Christianity. But after the time of Christ a number of Gnostics adopted Jesus as their savior—as the man who told humankind the truth about God—and thus considered themselves Christian. However, they understood his role and teachings in a very different way than orthodox Christians.
So, where did Jesus fit into Christian Gnostic cosmology?
Many Gnostics believed that Jesus was sent to Earth to teach humankind about a kind, loving, accepting God, who was very different from the tough, vengeful creator God of the Old Testament. Because Gnostics could not reconcile the two opposing aspects of the divine in one God, they believed there must be another god in addition to the creator God.
They came to view that second, greater God as a divine mind, who at the beginning of time had thoughts that spun off and became divine entities known as Aeons. The Aeons lived in the Pleroma, or fullness of God, which was a type of celestial ether or realm of light. One of these ideas made into substance was Wisdom, called "Sophia." She started to think and to have a mind of her own, and so she brought forth a new being without consulting the divine mind, and without its approval. This offspring was known as Yaldobaoth, and was called the demiurge, or creator.
The Gnostics believed it was Yaldobaoth who scooped up Adam and Eve from dirt and blew the breath of life into them. The creator spirit, an aberration in the pure world of the divine mind, brought evil into the world. But he also carried the essence of Sophia, and he exhaled some of the divine into Adam and Eve when he brought them to life. All of humankind has inherited that divine spark.
Jesus' role on Earth, according to the Gnostic Christians, was to tell humankind that they are descended from the divine. By knowing this, and looking inward to discover the divine spark, a Gnostic can be reunited with the divine and live in the fullness of God.
Elizabeth Snodgrass -
speaking of judas, there are two sayings how he died:
Acts 1:18 (New International Version)
18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.
Matthew 27:5 (New International Version)
5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
And can we say Judas was good? He seem to have low integrity (sounds familiar har)
John 12:6 (New International Version)
6He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
Matthew 26:48
48Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him."
Matthew 27:3-5 (New International Version)
3When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4"I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility."
5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. -
then how? the different accounts cannot reconcile.
Biblical contradiction! -
Originally posted by Icemoon:then how? the different accounts cannot reconcile.
Biblical contradiction! 
don't tease us will ya? I'm sure you are aware of the reasonable apologetical solution to these verses.
Or were you just trying to tease laoda? In which case I guess I have no place butting in. -
I'm not aware of any solution.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur: don't tease us will ya? I'm sure you are aware of the reasonable apologetical solution to these verses.
Or were you just trying to tease laoda? In which case I guess I have no place butting in.
How can you hang yourself and still fell headlong? -