Holy Communion Heresy
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Originally posted by vince69:Hi
Yes, I agree that the bread is the body of Christ broken for us, and the cup is the blood of the covenant shed for us.
The reason of parttaking the communion is to remember Christ [personal interpretation: also include the reasons/purpose why Christ have to go through all these for us.... etc etc
.... but do you have any other comments pertaining to the original article? -
Showing High regard as in?Originally posted by NT2:How i wish some protestant churches show high regard to the sacrament of the Eucharist as the RCs do. in that i only mean in the way they treat it.
I wonder if the disciples in Acts have any traditional ceremony for Holy Communion, to show that it's higly regarded.
Back to the heart.....back to the heart. -
CE,Originally posted by Chin Eng:.... but do you have any other comments pertaining to the original article?
hmm...
nope, I don't I want to add to what I have already commented on the article.
may however reply to the rest of NT2 's POV later after I find the time to reread it a few times more.
Thanks and God Bless
come to think of it, I had finished saying what I want to say, maybe its a good idea I stop here. -
do not assume that those who do not observe Holy Communion with Milo do not really understand the purpose of Christ's suffering and death.Originally posted by vince69:Hi
Yes, I agree that the bread is the body of Christ broken for us, and the cup is the blood of the covenant shed for us.
The reason of parttaking the communion is to remember Christ [personal interpretation: also include the reasons/purpose why Christ have to go through all these for us].
It does not means there is any supernatual healing in the bread alone, it means when taking the bread which when taking, we are to remember the body of Christ broken for us (why? Isaiah 53:4-6, He was beaten that we may be made whole, whipped that we may be healed, actually Isa53-55 is a good place to read in regards to the salvation plan of God), its knowing that Christ had paid the price that we can have the faith and confidence to believe God for our healing and restoration.
oh yes, cannot forget the Blood, very important also, the new covenant sealed in His blood, shed for the forgiveness of our sins, to enter into His covenant of everlasting love(Isa 54: 9-10).
If we were to treat the Communion as, ok loh, remember remember loh, and without really understand the purpose of Christ's suffering and death, we are not really giving honor to Him who died suffer and died on the cross for us.
God Bless.
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Sgdiehard,Originally posted by sgdiehard:do not assume that those who do not observe Holy Communion with Milo do not really understand the purpose of Christ's suffering and death.
not my intention, I don't use milo either, I use the word 'we' (meaning myself included).
allow me to phrase it properly
"If we (myself inclulded) were to treat the Communion as, ok loh, remember remember loh, and without really understand the purpose of Christ's suffering and death, we (myself included) are not really giving honor to Him who died suffer and died on the cross for us (myself included)."
God bless. -
hmm, should i add the Catholic view to this debate?
I'm tired.. maybe tomorrow...
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the issue is not with the milo.... or horlicks or ovaltine.Originally posted by sgdiehard:do not assume that those who do not observe Holy Communion with Milo do not really understand the purpose of Christ's suffering and death.
the issue is the sanctity of the occasion. unless one is to say that, a person is dying, and there is no "wine" available, then there is a possibly a good reason to bend the rules a bit... but, say, at a sanctuary, instead of "wine" or it's simplified form, the grape juice, orange juice or apple juice is served, I'd say that the sanctity of the occasion is lost.
along the same argument, if a bride and groom decides not to wear the traditional wedding gown and suite and we give the reason that this couple understand the purpose of the event, would we frown upon it?
some folks can give the example that David swipe bread from the inner sanctum because he's hungry and use this as an example to say that rules are meant to be broken. Let's bear in mind that this is a one off thing. The inner sanctum remains the inner sanctum. The Holy of the Holies remain the Holy of the Holies. -
Fully agree, no confusion on that. My church is actually using ribena, diluted, not so sweet.Originally posted by Chin Eng:the issue is not with the milo.... or horlicks or ovaltine.
the issue is the sanctity of the occasion. unless one is to say that, a person is dying, and there is no "wine" available, then there is a possibly a good reason to bend the rules a bit... but, say, at a sanctuary, instead of "wine" or it's simplified form, the grape juice, orange juice or apple juice is served, I'd say that the sanctity of the occasion is lost.
along the same argument, if a bride and groom decides not to wear the traditional wedding gown and suite and we give the reason that this couple understand the purpose of the event, would we frown upon it?
some folks can give the example that David swipe bread from the inner sanctum because he's hungry and use this as an example to say that rules are meant to be broken. Let's bear in mind that this is a one off thing. The inner sanctum remains the inner sanctum. The Holy of the Holies remain the Holy of the Holies. -
Regarding this topic, perhaps you will allow me to share an experience close to my heart. i have close relative, who is also a member of New Creation Church.
When her brother died at an early age of 20, she keeps trying to "resurrect" him through Holy Communion at the wake. She forced us to do Holy Communion with her 5-6 times at the wake. Of course, her brother is not resurrected. And the result is as expected, she broke down and felt confused. It is only when i told her, that while praying, i saw an image of her brother waving and seemingly happy to be on his way to heaven (which is indeed what i saw in my mind), that she can be calmed.
I wondered then, why and where she gets the idea that Holy Communion can heal and can resurrect a person. Dont have the heart to ask her why then. Now thanks to NT2 and vince for pointing these out, i do get an idea although will be careful to say that this pdf article might not or is the sole cause of influence.
Having a perception that by partaking Holy Communion, we can be healed - actually misunderstood and debunk the ultimate price that Jesus paid on the Cross. Whether or not, healing takes place - is always dependent not on our works nor our efforts, but by the Love and Wisdom of God to want to do so. We can intercede and pray, yes. Then we wait. Isnt that the Way ? -
Originally posted by klydeer:Regarding this topic, perhaps you will allow me to share an experience close to my heart. i have close relative, who is also a member of New Creation Church.
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Having a perception that by partaking Holy Communion, we can be healed - actually misunderstood and debunk the ultimate price that Jesus paid on the Cross. Whether or not, healing takes place - is always dependent not on our works nor our efforts, but by the Love and Wisdom of God to want to do so. We can intercede and pray, yes. Then we wait. Isnt that the Way ? Interesting.... I wonder what caused your relative to have such a concept in Holy Communion.
During the wake, weren't members of NCC present? Were the church doctrine influential or instrumental in causing her to have such a misconception? Were there any attempts, from the church, to rectify this misconception? -
The memorial meal of our Lord using the food of those days (ie.Bread and Wine) is for practical and symbolic reasons. Using milo and bread as Holy Communion is fine..if one knows what that 2 food means. And under normal circumstances, we use bread and wine because there isnt any emergency to talk about in the first place. The sacrament is not an urgent food you must die die take before you die or for urgent healing. as such, using milo and bread is not acceptable.
I am not against using non-bread and non-wine to celebrate communion. Some denominations use Ribena and Crackers for their Lord's Supper and that is pefectly fine because we remember His passion and celebrate this sacrament in spirit and in truth. Not looking at the brand of wafer and type of wine. Injecting an element of superstition...so desperate for healing that leads a person to run ro a convenient mart to get milo and bread for the supposely miracle-attached meal is something to rethink about. -
the pdf i included in my first post is actually a summarised version of a NCC publication with the same title and available in the church's bookroom.Originally posted by Chin Eng: Interesting.... I wonder what caused your relative to have such a concept in Holy Communion. During the wake, weren't members of NCC present? Were the church doctrine influential or instrumental in causing her to have such a misconception? Were there any attempts, from the church, to rectify this misconception?
i dont see this an act of different interpretation but rather an intended way to promote a new teaching, to put it bluntly, a teaching of demons. -
I agree with NT2 that it is heresy.
The 1st sentence is extrabiblical already:
"God has made it truly easy for His people to walk in divine health"
Statement sounds sweet, but it is not biblical in any sense.
Another one is "The Holy Communion is God's solution for us to stop the decay. Even your friends will see the results. They will begin to ask you, "Hey, why do you seem to look younger and younger? You never seem to age!"
"One day, when we get to heaven, we will have brand new bodies that never grow old, never tire and never look bad. Meanwhile, the lord's supper is how God helps is offset this process of ageing and walk in divine health. Every time you partake, you are reversing the effects of the curse or divine judgement in your body.." This is mixing truth (1st part) with false (2nd part).
We need to be aware of such unsound doctrine in the church and warn others. -
I agree, at least on the part of an intended way to promote a new teaching.Originally posted by NT2:the pdf i included in my first post is actually a summarised version of a NCC publication with the same title and available in the church's bookroom.
i dont see this an act of different interpretation but rather an intended way to promote a new teaching, to put it bluntly, a teaching of demons.
Interpretation has to base on something substantial. Eg basing on historical evidences, cultural viewpoint, cross references etc.....
.... but this sort of "interpretation " isn't new lah.... quite typical of churches of such standing.
.... dangerous nonetheless....
"reasons" I've heard: new understanding, new revelation, new vision.... same old same old -
Originally posted by laoda99:
I agree with NT2 that it is heresy.
The 1st sentence is extrabiblical already:
[b]"God has made it truly easy for His people to walk in divine health"
Statement sounds sweet, but it is not biblical in any sense.
Another one is "The Holy Communion is God's solution for us to stop the decay. Even your friends will see the results. They will begin to ask you, "Hey, why do you seem to look younger and younger? You never seem to age!"
"One day, when we get to heaven, we will have brand new bodies that never grow old, never tire and never look bad. Meanwhile, the lord's supper is how God helps is offset this process of ageing and walk in divine health. Every time you partake, you are reversing the effects of the curse or divine judgement in your body.." This is mixing truth (1st part) with false (2nd part).
We need to be aware of such unsound doctrine in the church and warn others.
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reminds me of a "charismatic" flavour pastor in my church. When asked why his hair is still black though he was almost 55, he said that he's been blessed. Recently white hair appearing, so blessing gone? -
Hi Chin Eng,Originally posted by Chin Eng: Interesting.... I wonder what caused your relative to have such a concept in Holy Communion. During the wake, weren't members of NCC present? Were the church doctrine influential or instrumental in causing her to have such a misconception? Were there any attempts, from the church, to rectify this misconception?
Ashamed to say, i too wondered but never asked my relative directly of this.
Members were present. But i was too tired then to have cared if they noticed or attempted to rectify. But i am thankful for NCC to have conducted a service at the wake, which touched the hearts of many.
Perhaps, the thing is, we all are at different stages of our walk with Christ. Young Christians can easily misinterpret a teaching according to desperate circumstances they faced. This incident is perhaps one of such an instance.
I had always encouraged fellow pals to attend small groups - because that is one good avenue upon which we can discuss about what Pastors are teaching and getting close to each other as a Body of Christ.
I do believe that this pdf article is raised for a reason - outcome which is positive according to the wisdom of our Lord. -
yup. the Bible in Eccl says there is nothing new under the sun. The reason why the anglican church fathers spend Article 28 in the 39 articles of faith to the Lord's Supper is for a reason. It is because the problems and issues they face during those days over the Lord's Supper is similar to us. Due to uneducated people and the Bible being kept away from the christians they are unable to see for themselves the truths behind the practices they hold on to. This led to many superstitious beliefs over christian doctrines and rituals.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I agree, at least on the part of an intended way to promote a new teaching.
Interpretation has to base on something substantial. Eg basing on historical evidences, cultural viewpoint, cross references etc.....
.... but this sort of "interpretation " isn't new lah.... quite typical of churches of such standing.
.... dangerous nonetheless....
"reasons" I've heard: new understanding, new revelation, new vision.... same old same old -
Without trying to sound like I am splitting hairs, most religious services correctly conducted will touch someone one way or another, it is not indicative of the scriptural stand of the church.Originally posted by klydeer:Ashamed to say, i too wondered but never asked my relative directly of this.
Members were present. But i was too tired then to have cared if they noticed or attempted to rectify. But i am thankful for NCC to have conducted a service at the wake, which touched the hearts of many.
Perhaps, the thing is, we all are at different stages of our walk with Christ. Young Christians can easily misinterpret a teaching according to desperate circumstances they faced. This incident is perhaps one of such an instance. Sometimes not just the young ones are misinterpreting. Actually I am more concern with the multiple attempts are "resurrecting " the dead through holy communion, and that the senior members of the church may not have done anything.... still it's water under the bridge, and it's really not fair to ask you if you'd noticed anything else.
Yup. As long as it's appropriately facilitated... Sometimes such groups can be dangerous too. either it's the blind leading the blind or the guillible leading the guillible.
I had always encouraged fellow pals to attend small groups - because that is one good avenue upon which we can discuss about what Pastors are teaching and getting close to each other as a Body of Christ. To me, such groups are good only if multiple views can be aired. But finding the "devil's advocate " in a church can be difficult.
Cheers. -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
"Without trying to sound like I am splitting hairs, most religious services correctly conducted will touch someone one way or another, it is not indicative of the scriptural stand of the church. "
- Agreed. For the sake of the family, i'm just thankful that they managed to do so
"Sometimes not just the young ones are misinterpreting. Actually I am more concern with the multiple attempts are "resurrecting " the dead through holy communion, and that the senior members of the church may not have done anything.... still it's water under the bridge, and it's really not fair to ask you if you'd noticed anything else."
- Yes again. far from being unfair, i thought your comments actually brought me to a reminder to ask about it or at least find out more. Afterall, my wife and i are also particularly concerned with that "belief" at the point of time.
"Yup. As long as it's appropriately facilitated... Sometimes such groups can be dangerous too. either it's the blind leading the blind or the guillible leading the guillible. Laughing Laughing To me, such groups are good only if multiple views can be aired. But finding the "devil's advocate " in a church can be difficult."
- How...true about the blind leading the blind...need to be careful on that one. so far small group experience for me has been quite fruitful and challenging as well. also dependent on how comfortable people are as a small group, and so the depth of issues discussed. Takes time to grow in fellowship. -
OMG .. I thought you were a female.Originally posted by klydeer:- Yes again. far from being unfair, i thought your comments actually brought me to a reminder to ask about it or at least find out more. Afterall, my wife and i are also particularly concerned with that "belief" at the point of time.
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i hope no one thinks i am against mega churches...i am anti-heretic churches thats all.
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yup..we dun need gem studded chalice and ciborium and elabourate service to celebrate HC so as to prove we show high regard though that is one of the ways some churches use..a sincere attitude and gratefulness to what Christ did is sufficient.Originally posted by M©+square:Showing High regard as in?
I wonder if the disciples in Acts have any traditional ceremony for Holy Communion, to show that it's higly regarded.
Back to the heart.....back to the heart.
A broken and contrite heart He will not despise. -
i heard news fr my church that months ago a member started to baptise her mum who is seriously ill with water at the hospital without the mother personally giving her the consent or in any ways confess her faith.
Then after that, she requested the church pastor to go down to the hospital to give her HC. Due to the way the denomination functions, HC is not given to people that are not christians and not baptised so asked her and realise she baptise the mother while she in coma and now asking for HC.
The pastor refused to go down to give HC but rather want to find out what is tt misusing of sacraments all about. pastoral visit and prayer is fine. But administering of HC is no. -
x 2Originally posted by sgdiehard:"....Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, ...'take and eat; this is my body.' Then he took the cup, ....'Drink from it. all of you. This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Matthew 26:26 - 29
""...'this is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me....this cup is the new covenant in my blood, do this, whenever you drink it ,in remembrance of me. For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." 1 Cor.
What Jesus said when he instituted the Holy Communion, and what Paul said to the Corithians is clear. Holy Communion is to remember the the body of Christ that was broken for us, the covenant of the blood that was shed for us, and we eat and drink this cup to proclaim the Lord's death till he comes. It is not my opinion, it is what Jesus said.
Nothing is said about the power to heal , like the "bronze snake" that Moses put up to heal those bitten by snake?
God may choose to heal us when we confessed our sins in our daily devotion, or after a prayer in a fellowship or CG meeting, or after partaking in a Holy Communion. But that does not mean daily devotion, fellowship or CG meetings or Holy Communion have healing power. The power to heal is with God. This is not just my opinion, what is what I firmly believe.
To preach the power of healing in Holy Communion to the extent of using milo and biscuits for Holy Communion at a patient's bedside is Heresy.
Next time the church can sell the wine and the bread meant for Holy Communion to members as health supplements.
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Originally posted by laoda99:
which cause me to ponder...does SKII use communion wafer as the active ingredients?
I agree with NT2 that it is heresy.
The 1st sentence is extrabiblical already:
[b]"God has made it truly easy for His people to walk in divine health"
Statement sounds sweet, but it is not biblical in any sense.
Another one is "The Holy Communion is God's solution for us to stop the decay. Even your friends will see the results. They will begin to ask you, "Hey, why do you seem to look younger and younger? You never seem to age!"
"One day, when we get to heaven, we will have brand new bodies that never grow old, never tire and never look bad. Meanwhile, the lord's supper is how God helps is offset this process of ageing and walk in divine health. Every time you partake, you are reversing the effects of the curse or divine judgement in your body.." This is mixing truth (1st part) with false (2nd part).
We need to be aware of such unsound doctrine in the church and warn others.
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joking