Matthew 18:18
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"Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
I would like to know what does Jesus mean when he mentioned the above verse? Does it refer to a covernant or to what we proclaim? Thanks in advance.
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had been busy
normally, when we want to study/interpret the Bible, we will also need to look at the verses before and after it so that what we read/interpret will be keep in context from the rest of the passage
15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
this passage is sandwiched between 2 parables, the one before this is on the lost sheep and how the farmer will to go out to look for it, the one after this is on the unmerciful servant.
Just before vs 18, Jesus is taking about the issue of someone who had commit a sin (not going to speculate what sin it is), and if this person absolutely refused to turn back.
Paul in one of his letters did mentioned this, its about a believer refusing to repent of a sin he commited (think its in Corintians, need to go check it out) and was excommunicated from the fellowship, eventually, this brethen did turned back and Paul urge the church to recieve him back.
This verse 18 however is very interesting, as by its own, its very often quoted by the ultra-charismatics during their 'spiritual warfare' sessions as the scriptural basis to bind this/ bind that, or loose this/loose that.
while seeing the verses before it (on bringing a wayward brother back) and the verses after it (on forgiving a brother that had sinned against you) does not really jives with this. I can only conclude that the answer to this lies in verse 19-20. Its about coming together and praying/agreeing together in His name, and believing that as He had promised, He will be there mediating for us. -
Jesus is giving the apostles the authority to rule and lead the Church.Originally posted by babyys:"Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
I would like to know what does Jesus mean when he mentioned the above verse? Does it refer to a covernant or to what we proclaim? Thanks in advance. -
Mt 18:18 "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” New King James Version
Actually a case of mistranslation has occurred here. Another one of those inaccuracies in translation.
If you noticed the underlined words above, both are in the future tense: “will be bound in heaven and will be loosed in heaven” in some of our English versions.
But notice a revision in the Modern King James Version about this verse:
Mt 18:18 Truly I say to you, Whatever you shall bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven; and whatever you shall loose on earth shall occur, having been loosed in Heaven.
Why the revision? Which is a correct translation of the original Greek? Actually, in the original Greek, the words ‘will be bound in heaven” and “will be loosed in heaven” are both in the perfect tense not in the future tense. Perfect tenses in Greek signify an action that is begun in the past reaching a point of culmination or completion and its effects linger to the present.
Thus to translate the original Greek as future tenses is inaccurate like in the case of the New King James and the NIV.
If i were to paraphrse this verse based on the tense of the original it would be something like this:
"whatever you bind on earth, make it sure that that which you bind is what is already bound in heaven, and whatever you loose, make it sure that that which you loose is what is already loosed in heaven."
This fact is attested by Greek scholars:
Kenneth Wuest, an eminent Greek scholar, rendered this verse as: “And whatever you bind on earth, shall have been already bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have already been loosed in heaven.”
J.B. Phillips: “..whatever you forbid upon earth will be what is forbidden in Heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be what is permitted in Heaven.”
Charles Williams: “…..whatever you forbid on earth must be already forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth must be already permitted in heaven.”
Dr. Isidro of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School ,Deerfield Illinois, USA, a greek scholar, rendered this verse in his translation as: “..whatever you bind on earth shall be that which has been bound in heaven; and whatever you may loose on earth shall be that which has been loosed in heaven.”
The NASB translate it: “Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
The Amplified Bible has it: “Truly I tell you, whatever you forbid and declare to be improper and unlawful on earth must be what is already forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit and declare proper and lawful on earth must be what is already permitted in heaven.
In the act of disciplining a wayward and an unrepentant member, they are not to act arbitrarily, rather in the act of disciplining they should do this under the authority and guidance of heaven.
Guidance in seeking wisdom in disciplining a sinning, unrepentant member is obtained through prayer. So the next verse talks about prayer.
This is not an exclusive promise to the apostles only but to the whole church [whether that church be made of only two or three members]. We see this in 1 Corinthians 5 where the whole local church is to be involved in the discipline of an erring member. -
and who interacted with the local churches at that time?
the apostles! -
Just as it is now. The Church is built on the foundational doctrine of Jesus Christ's person and saving work from the teachings of the apostles.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:and who interacted with the local churches at that time?
the apostles!
Eph 2:20 "being built on the foundation [foundational doctrines] of the apostles and prophets [new testament prophets], Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone;"
A more accurate rendering would be: "being built on the foundation FROM the apostles and prophets,..........."
Where does the Church get its direction? From the apostles teachings now preserved IN THE BIBLE. Not in some self-styled, self-appointed authority.
the apostles are interacting now with the local churches of Christianity through their inspired wriitngs through the illumination of the Holy Spirit [the official interpreter of the Bible]. Just as Moses and the prophets interacted with Israel after their deaths through their sacred writings.
True Christianity is always apostolic [in doctrine]. The apostles through ministers who are faithful in expounding their writings are in a secondary sense continuing their ministry. -
if you claim the Holy Spirit to be the interpretor of the Scripture, why do all the churches contradict one another if they claim to follow the Bible?
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Sorry here's what i meant...........[sorry my mind is tired right now]Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:if you claim the Holy Spirit to be the interpretor of the Scripture, why do all the churches contradict one another if they claim to follow the Bible?
I do not claim it Paul said it. Though he did not say it verbatim.
Just as Christians are undergoing sanctification in character to conform to the image of Christ, Christians are in the process of growing and maturing in their theology and knowledge of God.
This process however has ups and downs.
Remaining corruption [in the Christian] is always the culprit [not the Holy Spirit] why Christians are hampered in their knowledge of God. The Holy Spirit is always there to guide into all truth.
Sin [prejudices, biases, hardness of heart, unbelief, prayerlessness, quenching the Spirt, grieving the Holy Spirit, not being filled with the Spirit and etc.] fogs and stifles the mind of the Christian to the leading and illumination of the HOly Spirit.
The apostles in their "baby" days had the greatest theology teacher in the world to guide them, but they were unable to grasp and assimilate the truth imparted by the Teacher because their hardness of heart, they have become temporarily dull in hearing.
And so it is with the real Vicar of Christ on earth now [the Holy Spirit], He is always there to teach and guide into all truth.....question is: "Are Christians really willing to learn 100%, [set aside their biases and prejudices and etc.]?
In glory, we will all have one theology. -
huh? so you are saying that God's teaching changes over time? if that's the case, we don't need the bible!Originally posted by Ironside:I do not claim that Paul said it. Though he did not say it verbatim.
Just as Christians are undergoing sanctification in character to conform to the image of Christ, Christians are in the process of growing and maturing in their theology and knowledge of God.
This process however has ups and downs.
Remaining corruption [in the Christian] is always the culprit [not the Holy Spirit] why Christians are hampered in their knowledge of God. The Holy Spirit is always there to guide into all truth.
Sin [prejudices, biases, hardness of heart, unbelief, prayerlessness, quenching the Spirt, grieving the Holy Spirit, not being filled with the Spirit and etc.] fogs and stifles the mind of the Christian to the leading and illumination of the HOly Spirit.
The apostles in their "baby" days had the greatest theology teacher in the world to guide them, but they were unable to grasp and assimilate the truth imparted by the Teacher because their hardness of heart, they have become temporarily dull in hearing.
And so it is with the real Vicar of Christ on earth now [the Holy Spirit], He is always there to teach and guide into all truth.....question is: "Are Christians really willing to learn 100%, [set aside their biases and prejudices and etc.]?
In glory, we will all have one theology.
We do not label the Holy Spirit as the Vicar of Christ. The Holy Spirit is far greater than that. He is the Advocate, the Paraclete, the Comforter.
The Vicar of Christ is only a man. You can guess who. -
Sorry here's what i meant...........[sorry my mind is tired right now]Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:huh? so you are saying that God's teaching changes over time? if that's the case, we don't need the bible!
We do not label the Holy Spirit as the Vicar of Christ. The Holy Spirit is far greater than that. He is the Advocate, the Paraclete, the Comforter.
The Vicar of Christ is only a man. You can guess who.
I do not claim it Paul said it. Though he did not say it verbatim.
Just as Christians are undergoing sanctification in character to conform to the image of Christ, Christians are in the process of growing and maturing in their theology and knowledge of God [God is to infinite to be known in just one time]. This knowledge of God is obtained by studying the Bible under the illumination of the Holy Spirit.
This process however has ups and downs due to the remaining corruption in the Christian. Not all Christians are on equal level about their maturity theologywise.
[Some out of bias to logic would lean to Armianism, others go to the other extreme of Extreme Calvinism and etc.]
Others out some degree of fanaticism follow the teachings of one man not the Holy Spirit [when no one man has cornered all the truth].
Remaining corruption [in the Christian] is always the culprit [not the Holy Spirit] why Christians are hampered in their knowledge of God. The Holy Spirit is always there to guide into all truth.
Sin [prejudices, biases, hardness of heart, unbelief, prayerlessness, quenching the Spirt, grieving the Holy Spirit, not being filled with the Spirit and etc.] fogs and stifles the mind of the Christian to the leading and illumination of the HOly Spirit.
The apostles in their "baby" days had the greatest theology teacher in the world to guide them, but they were unable to grasp and assimilate the truth imparted by the Teacher because their hardness of heart, they have become temporarily dull in hearing.
And so it is with the real Vicar of Christ on earth now [the Holy Spirit], He is always there to teach and guide into all truth.....question is: "Are Christians really willing to learn 100%, [set aside their biases and prejudices and etc.]?
In glory, we will all have one theology.
P.S. of course the Holy Spirit as the Vicar of Christ is also all that: comforter, Advocate, and etc.
the Bible never changes. The Holy Spirit as interpreter and teacher is always there to illuminate the Spirit filled Christian into all its [Bible's] teachings. -
4th of 5th time editing........still counting.
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Strange but true
People well verse in their stuff tends to edit and re-edit their posts
My observation -
with my difficulty in expressing myself in English + my going without sleep for the past 24 hours=erratic Ironside.Originally posted by M©+square:4th of 5th time editing........still counting.
P.S. i was writing something to contribute to edfication corner......but found my mind unable to concentrate writing about the Trinity [the topic requires a lot of concentration]........i just decided to read some of posts......and so all these......
bye........
{Ironside falls from his chair and dozed off}. -
Orh.....good....i'm not well versed.Originally posted by laurence82:Strange but true
People well verse in their stuff tends to edit and re-edit their posts
My observation -
u well versedOriginally posted by M©+square:Orh.....good....i'm not well versed.
but i forgot
pride in their work
i was guilty of this, but of cuz, in another topic altogether -
Pride...yes.Originally posted by laurence82:u well versed
but i forgot
pride in their work
i was guilty of this, but of cuz, in another topic altogether
They want to craft it the best possible. -
Accuracy is paramount, especially in debates like thisOriginally posted by M©+square:Pride...yes.
They want to craft it the best possible. -
I learn something new everyday ..Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:We do not label the Holy Spirit as the Vicar of Christ. The Holy Spirit is far greater than that. He is the Advocate, the Paraclete, the Comforter.
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Indeed.Originally posted by laurence82:Accuracy is paramount, especially in debates like this
Then again. It's just different expressions of views. Absolutes? ....i would safely say - quite rare. -
i believe the term 'paraclete' is equivalent to 'comforter'...Originally posted by Icemoon:I learn something new everyday ..
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia..
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11469a.htm -
I somehow believe in "the more you write, the more wrong it becomes".Originally posted by laurence82:Accuracy is paramount, especially in debates like this -
Dont know, never got problems with this in the other forums i participated in.Originally posted by Icemoon:I somehow believe in "the more you write, the more wrong it becomes". -
for frigging sake, go sleep lar
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Got your PM. Thanks.Originally posted by Ironside:with my difficulty in expressing myself in English + my going without sleep for the past 24 hours=erratic Ironside.
P.S. i was writing something to contribute to edfication corner......but found my mind unable to concentrate writing about the Trinity [the topic requires a lot of concentration]........i just decided to read some of posts......and so all these......
bye........
{Ironside falls from his chair and dozed off}.
Honestly. I'd rather not post anything till i make sure my post is re-read time and over again. Each word/term used and sentences will deliver to the reader your views - at least on your part, you've done your best.
[[Numerous editing]] might just mean, poster is not confident of his initial statement/post.
If so. It will be better for him to sort through and phrase it correct once.
Ironside, i understand where you're coming from. Hope you'll read through your post first?
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very deep! so in layman wats the conclusion?