predestination or freewill? does man have a choice?
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AMEN to tat bro!!! tats the way babyys...
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no lah .. he kapo from the web one. You can even google for it.Originally posted by babyys:errr....if u have a bible, i would presume that u only have the old-testament? u left out the new testiment.
wat bout the greatest verse John 3:16? "God so Loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him shall not PErish but have everlasting life."
Don't tempt him. Wait he come out with list of New Testament contradictions.
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For the religious life to be meaningful we must have free will, we must be able to choose between good and evil. If we do not have free will we cannot be held responsible for what we do.Originally posted by despondent:tis issue is a topic debated over many yrs by theologians ard the world...til today, no confirm answer can be made...does man play any part at all in his salvation? or is it TOTALLY God's divine calling? both sides have strong scripture backup...wad r ur views? air them here...
According to Christians, God is all-knowing - he knows all the past, all the present and all the future. If this is so, then God must know everything we do long before we do it. This means that our whole life must be predetermined and that we act not according to the free exercise of our wills but according to our predetermined natures. If we are predetermined to be good we will be good and if we are predetermined to be evil we will be evil. We will act not according to our will or choice but according to the way God has already foreseen we will act. Although Christians will insist that we do have free will, God's omniscience simply makes this logically impossible. And that people will act only as God determines is verified in the Bible
If people are evil it is because God has chosen to make them evil (Rom 1:24-2
and caused them to disobey him (Rom 11:32). If they do not understand God's message it is because he has made their minds dull (Rom 11: and caused them to be stubborn (Rom 9:1. God prevents the Gospel from being preached in certain areas (Act 16:6-7) and he fixes long before it will happen when a person will be born and when he or she will die (Act 17:26). Those who were going to be saved were chosen by God before the beginning of time (ii Tim 1:9 Eph 1:11). If a person has faith and is thereby saved, their faith comes from God, not from any effort on their part (Eph 2:9-10). One may ask "If a person can only do what God predetermines them to do, how can God hold them responsible for their actions?" The Bible has an answer for this question.
But one of you will say to me: "If this is so, how can God find fault with anyone? For who can resist God's will?" But who are you, my friend, to answer God back? A clay pot does not ask the man who made it: "Why did you make me like this?" After all, the man who makes the pot has the right to use the clay as he wishes, and to make two pots from one lump of clay, one for special occasions and one for ordinary use. And the same is true of what God has done (Rom 9:19-22).
So apparently in Christianity a person's life and destiny are due purely to the whim of God and as mere humans we have no right to complain about what God has decided for us. The idea that we are all predetermined is quite consistent with the idea of an all-knowing God but it makes nonsense of the concept of making a' effort to do good or avoid evil. -
You can read the same reply on other websites .. and better formatted.Originally posted by Raptured:Sorry too long. Not feeling well. So too tired to read. Sorry.
Obviously this guy just copy and paste from the web. -
Another case of neutral_onliner plagiarising: http://experts.about.com/q/Buddhists-948/BUDDHISM-4.htm
lol .. so ironical .. he actually got his latest reply from a Buddhism expert. -
So.. predestination or freewill? does man have a choice?Originally posted by Icemoon:Another case of neutral_onliner plagiarising: http://experts.about.com/q/Buddhists-948/BUDDHISM-4.htm
lol .. so ironical .. he actually got his latest reply from a Buddhism expert. 
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So .. are you guilty for your crimes?Originally posted by neutral_onliner:So.. predestination or freewill? does man have a choice? -
nothing to guilty abt ..just posting some interesting pts for discussionOriginally posted by Icemoon:So .. are you guilty for your crimes? -
the problem here with you is that your so called "thoughts" are not even your own. You aren't even original. If you quoted the material to back up your POV, then that is one thing, but it is totally not cool to pass off someone elses thoughts as you own...Originally posted by neutral_onliner:nothing to guilty abt ..just posting some interesting pts for discussion -
dats sista for u brudder hehehe.....Originally posted by despondent:AMEN to tat bro!!! tats the way babyys... -
oops!!! sorry...didnt noe u were female...u r one of very few females in forum...
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oh is it? like dat i can do a search on the net & "pluck" plentiful stuff out of it but r they concrete? now dats another food for thought.Originally posted by Icemoon:no lah .. he kapo from the web one. You can even google for it.
Don't tempt him. Wait he come out with list of New Testament contradictions.
if everyone reads some junk article and accepts it then thats just so shallow same as reading the bible and literally take it word for word then no need scholars, theologians & pastors liao.
They prob left out the words "REVELATION" and "DISCERNMENT" in their dictionary wahahaha..... -
As someone has mentioned that "Some Christians display an admirable level of stoicism and morality that far exceeded They emphasize the 'love' message from Jesus Christ and at the same time de-emphasizes the other more problematic aspects of the religion. This types of Christians are by nature pretty hard to offend. On the other hand, some fundamental Christians would be offended by the very existence of us non-believersOriginally posted by breytonhartge:the problem here with you is that your so called "thoughts" are not even your own. You aren't even original. If you quoted the material to back up your POV, then that is one thing, but it is totally not cool to pass off someone elses thoughts as you own...
To prevent further misunderstanding i shall rest my case.May u be happy...Good Bye
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Really? I am sorry that i can't read further. Feeling sick. I hope he doesnt just copy & paste without thinking. & he has really thot abt the points.Originally posted by Icemoon:You can read the same reply on other websites .. and better formatted.
Obviously this guy just copy and paste from the web. -
'Originally posted by neutral_onliner:As someone has mentioned that "Some Christians display an admirable level of stoicism and morality that far exceeded They emphasize the 'love' message from Jesus Christ and at the same time de-emphasizes the other more problematic aspects of the religion. This types of Christians are by nature pretty hard to offend. On the other hand, some fundamental Christians would be offended by the very existence of us non-believers
To prevent further misunderstanding i shall rest my case.May u be happy...Good Bye
I apologise for the Christians who have offended you. We are not perfect people even when we seek to be holy & perfect like Christ. U are welcome to post here anytime. Pls dont feel that you are being misunderstood. Keep searching for God. May u be happy also. Farewell! -
hanor hanor, no christian is perfect. Im the perfect example
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oh,,,,,
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you can't even be bothered to post a different good bye. Copy and paste! How unoriginal!Originally posted by neutral_onliner:As someone has mentioned that "Some Christians display an admirable level of stoicism and morality that far exceeded They emphasize the 'love' message from Jesus Christ and at the same time de-emphasizes the other more problematic aspects of the religion. This types of Christians are by nature pretty hard to offend. On the other hand, some fundamental Christians would be offended by the very existence of us non-believers
To prevent further misunderstanding i shall rest my case.May u be happy...Good Bye 
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thnks...unforturnately christians like u are rareOriginally posted by Raptured:'
I apologise for the Christians who have offended you. We are not perfect people even when we seek to be holy & perfect like Christ. U are welcome to post here anytime. Pls dont feel that you are being misunderstood. Keep searching for God. May u be happy also. Farewell!
nice chatting wf u bye
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There are many who are much better than me ard. Just look for them. But don't look at people bcos people can fail you terribly. I was a victim also last time. Don't say bye to God. You can say bye to me. Keep searching. You will find Him. Post here when you want to raise any issue regarding Christianity. We welcome you here even if you plagiarise. Just make sure you understood the points. Farewell!Originally posted by neutral_onliner:thnks...unforturnately christians like u are rare
nice chatting wf u bye -
So God - according to you, must have "pre-determined" you for posting this "predetermination theory" !Originally posted by neutral_onliner:For the religious life to be meaningful we must have free will, we must be able to choose between good and evil. If we do not have free will we cannot be held responsible for what we do.
According to Christians, God is all-knowing - he knows all the past, all the present and all the future. If this is so, then God must know everything we do long before we do it. This means that our whole life must be predetermined and that we act not according to the free exercise of our wills but according to our predetermined natures. If we are predetermined to be good we will be good and if we are predetermined to be evil we will be evil. We will act not according to our will or choice but according to the way God has already foreseen we will act. Although Christians will insist that we do have free will, God's omniscience simply makes this logically impossible. And that people will act only as God determines is verified in the Bible
If people are evil it is because God has chosen to make them evil (Rom 1:24-2 and caused them to disobey him (Rom 11:32). If they do not understand God's message it is because he has made their minds dull (Rom 11: and caused them to be stubborn (Rom 9:1. God prevents the Gospel from being preached in certain areas (Act 16:6-7) and he fixes long before it will happen when a person will be born and when he or she will die (Act 17:26). Those who were going to be saved were chosen by God before the beginning of time (ii Tim 1:9 Eph 1:11). If a person has faith and is thereby saved, their faith comes from God, not from any effort on their part (Eph 2:9-10). One may ask "If a person can only do what God predetermines them to do, how can God hold them responsible for their actions?" The Bible has an answer for this question.
But one of you will say to me: "If this is so, how can God find fault with anyone? For who can resist God's will?" But who are you, my friend, to answer God back? A clay pot does not ask the man who made it: "Why did you make me like this?" After all, the man who makes the pot has the right to use the clay as he wishes, and to make two pots from one lump of clay, one for special occasions and one for ordinary use. And the same is true of what God has done (Rom 9:19-22).
So apparently in Christianity a person's life and destiny are due purely to the whim of God and as mere humans we have no right to complain about what God has decided for us. The idea that we are all predetermined is quite consistent with the idea of an all-knowing God but it makes nonsense of the concept of making a' effort to do good or avoid evil.
If that is the case, you can just sit back and do nothing - since God predetermined everything. Your body and arms and legs will move accordingly to do what is pre-determined. Well, start doing it - you got to do it in order for people to find "evidence" in your pre-supposed ideas. Then after "one week", you tell me what God has "pre-determined" for you.
You have a good way of picking what to believe and what not to - even though you are a self proclaimed - what ? - Strong Atheist ? Since you like to matriculate your thoughts - tell me - how do you categorise between a strong and weak atheist ? What ? a strong Atheist do not believe in the existence of God "more" ? Huh ? Isnt that contradictory to your theory of absolutness in evidencing the unseeing ?
Define God ? You cant even define what you proclaim as an Atheist. Who are you to define God ?
"Only female give life" - So God is female ? So now the male sperm is but a lifeless splurt of pleasure ? Since when does females became mosquitoes?
You are attempting to define within your conjecture as a human, living a life of experience according to your own. But the reality of this world and the love of our Lord is not this shallow.
Evidence for God ? There are Billions of them in this phyiscal world and many of which are walking. A person who tell you his most initmate encounters with God is more precious than proclaimation of fossils found in some caves which time stamps keep changing as the scientist change their underwears.
Stop insulting our Lord. -
You scold him for what?Originally posted by klydeer:Stop insulting our Lord.
He never wrote that article. -
I feel that Christians(not all) are over reactive when it comes to defending their beliefs.
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Defending? from what they said, I am not even sure if they know exactly what they believe in, predestination or freewill?Originally posted by M©+square:I feel that Christians(not all) are over reactive when it comes to defending their beliefs.
Human beings do not know enough about God and certainly we cannot explain many things God created or ideas that were in His mind. After all, religion is about faith. There are many other issues that human have no answers, and are potentially provocative to non believers, so what's wrong in saying that I don't know?
so when these old issues like that turn up, some non christians brought out their cannons and ready to fire, red flags are up, some Chrisitans took cover, some recited the basic salvation and then went for cover as if declaring that I was predestined to be saved.....one arguement from the opposition came up and we saw fire....
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"Some people falsely believe that it is impossible to prove the unexistence of anything, but they are wrong. It can, for example, be proved that there is no even prime number greater than two. Other people use to say that there is no way to prove if there is a god or not, or even that we cannot get any knowledge of god (agnosticism). My opinion as a strong atheist, is that we can in fact prove that god does not exist in the physical world. This document is my attempt to do so."Originally posted by Icemoon:You scold him for what?
He never wrote that article.
Oh you mean the above is not even written by him ? Then didnt quote source just post ? (sounds familiar...). Wow, such unbelievable tolerance on the part of "SOME" (not all) compared to "SOME" (not all) when it happened in the past.
Funny ? Sorry, but I dont find it funny.