Lets talk about Jesus.
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I'm going to faint again....Originally posted by Raptured:Are you suffering from some kind of unfairness in your life right now? Are you feeling alone by yourself? Are you going thru some suffering which you feel is unfair or do you see someone suffering unfairly? I was like that last time. I questioned God's fairness bitterly. How can a loving God allow people to go to hell or suffer? BUT i must remind you. There is not just God around here. The devil is working behind the scenes also. I want to tell you there is a devil. He is the master of pain, death, deception & he is rebelling against God. I didnt know i was tricked by satan last time. I didnt know he was responsible for my suffering & responsible for so many people going to hell by his deceptive lies.
The devil is a very powerful fallen angel. God describes him in the book of Job as a very powerful monster or serpent. Nobody can stand up to him alone without God's help. God had to allow suffering bcos of sin. God had to allow people to go to hell bcos of unforgiven sins. He hurts also when one soul perishes.
Regarding the interpretations, people will see things differently but that doesnt mean they contradict. One could notice one aspect & another could see another aspect but they can fit in harmoniusly. No one person is alike in character or temperament. Regarding fantastic interpretations of the bible, I think more Christians should go to bible college or attend bible classes to have the correct interpretation method taught. I think the problem you mentioned arises with charismatic teachings who always depend on the Spirit until they twist the Word. I guess they quote out of context or worse still they quote to satisfy their lusts. So i am against new age teaching.
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Why you faint?Originally posted by M©+square:I'm going to faint again.... -
All i'm saying my friend is that you step back from that position and try to be neutral first. You are coming in with a position already.Originally posted by casino_king:This was the same response I got from the Buddhists. "If you cannot prove that something does not exixt; well it must exists!"
Like I said over there; I cannot prove that you are not a murderer so you must be a murderer and deserves to be hanged.
We are talking about Jesus here and whether the accounts in the Bible can be trusted. We then go on to say that there are internal incoherences (contradictions) in the accounts so that little weight must be given to these accounts.
So the internal incoherances in GMatthew and GLuke are relevant to these discussions. There is no need to resort to PM
you said that miracles [virgin birth] cannot happen. What are your solid basis in saying this? Well, our modern science says it cannot happen. But it doesn't mean that just because it is modern and sophisticated, that it is full proof and water tight accurate and more importantly FINAL.
For them to say this..........let them give us evidences in all history and in all the world since this universe began that there definitely was no miracle that ever took place here on earth.....till they cannot furnish us with this evidence.....why say.....miracles cannot happen?
You turn the tables to me and say: "so why do you believe in Jesus.......you have no proof of Him being resurrected?" Actually i have proof that He resurrected from the dead. I have the gospels as testimonial evidences.
In any sane, fair, reasonable and just court of law.......no judge cannot just ignore and waive off witnessess....no they check the credibility of witnesses......they weigh their testimonies objectively and etc.
Well, you say: "they have inconsistencies in their narratives"...........
Seeming contradictions in the gospel narratives have been ably explained by many in our ranks......books abound........articles are copious....treatises are abundant with regards to this one... we just wonder if critics ever read them for the sake of fairness.
for you to say that they are contrdictory, i think the burden of proof is on you [somebody correct me on this if i'm wrong].....
YOu must show us the following [from Dr. A. A. Hodge]:
Dr. A.A. Hodge:
1. He must show that the passage was in the original text.
2. He must show that the translation which he has of the passage is absolutely correct.
3. He must show that his interpretation of the passage is the only possible one, and that it represents the exact idea which the writer intended to express.
4. He must show, when science is involved, that the present state of our scientific knowledge is final.
5. When he has done all this, then he must show that the task of reconciliation is impossible
Waw!!! Don't you like that scholarly approach................if i were not a Christian.....i'd probably follow this one here proposed by Dr. Hodge for me to be a fair critic of the gospel records.
I just love those old scholars of Princeton. Fair and reasonable. not to mention godly.
P.S. I am not asking you my friend not to use your head. i am asking you on the contrary to use your head. -
double posts
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Actually I feel quite bad after reading the posts. It seems harmless for you to indulge in your fantasies. So it seems pointless for me to "wake you up" however good my intentions are.
My position is this; if there is no evidence, then you cannot believe it. If it is against reality; you cannot believe it. Hold firm to reality and find solutions based on reality and not based on fantasy and imagination.
If you say that I do not know everything and so I cannot say for certain that you are wrong; I repeat myself here: if you cannot show me that you are right, I rather go with people who can show me prove that they are right. I will not go with people who tell me fantasy and then say that there is no way I can prove that the fantasies are not real. I hope you get the point.
But like I say, there is not much harm as far as I can see for children to believe in santa claus and that santa will give them presents on Christmas day if they were good.
But I sincerely belive that it is much better for the children to know and understand that the presents come from their parents who love them rather than from some imaginary being. -
To each his own.... and get on with our lives....Originally posted by casino_king:Actually I feel quite bad after reading the posts. It seems harmless for you to indulge in your fantasies. So it seems pointless for me to "wake you up" however good my intentions are.
My position is this; if there is no evidence, then you cannot believe it. If it is against reality; you cannot believe it. Hold firm to reality and find solutions based on reality and not based on fantasy and imagination.
If you say that I do not know everything and so I cannot say for certain that you are wrong; I repeat myself here: if you cannot show me that you are right, I rather go with people who can show me prove that they are right. I will not go with people who tell me fantasy and then say that there is no way I can prove that the fantasies are not real. I hope you get the point.
But like I say, there is not much harm as far as I can see for children to believe in santa claus and that santa will give them presents on Christmas day if they were good.
But I sincerely belive that it is much better for the children to know and understand that the presents come from their parents who love them rather than from some imaginary being. -
Pls dont depend on people to prove to you. You have to do a bit of searching yourself. Maybe you would want to try prophecies in the bible to see if they are coming true or not. Bcos if prophecies can come true, then some Being knows the past to the future. Maybe you can look at prophecies that came true last time thruout history correlated to the bible, like wars, destruction of nations, empires that arose etc & check the authenticity of these prophecies recorded in the bible.Originally posted by casino_king:Actually I feel quite bad after reading the posts. It seems harmless for you to indulge in your fantasies. So it seems pointless for me to "wake you up" however good my intentions are.
My position is this; if there is no evidence, then you cannot believe it. If it is against reality; you cannot believe it. Hold firm to reality and find solutions based on reality and not based on fantasy and imagination.
If you say that I do not know everything and so I cannot say for certain that you are wrong; I repeat myself here: if you cannot show me that you are right, I rather go with people who can show me prove that they are right. I will not go with people who tell me fantasy and then say that there is no way I can prove that the fantasies are not real. I hope you get the point.
But like I say, there is not much harm as far as I can see for children to believe in santa claus and that santa will give them presents on Christmas day if they were good.
But I sincerely belive that it is much better for the children to know and understand that the presents come from their parents who love them rather than from some imaginary being. -
Evidence? The Christians here are directing you towards the evidence, but instead of engaging them (like our SIS last time), you ignored them.Originally posted by casino_king:Actually I feel quite bad after reading the posts. It seems harmless for you to indulge in your fantasies. So it seems pointless for me to "wake you up" however good my intentions are.
My position is this; if there is no evidence, then you cannot believe it. If it is against reality; you cannot believe it. Hold firm to reality and find solutions based on reality and not based on fantasy and imagination.
If you say that I do not know everything and so I cannot say for certain that you are wrong; I repeat myself here: if you cannot show me that you are right, I rather go with people who can show me prove that they are right. I will not go with people who tell me fantasy and then say that there is no way I can prove that the fantasies are not real. I hope you get the point.
Reality? What reality? How does the faith clash with your reality? The reality is cancer cells can just disappear(go read the story of Gurmit Singh's mother), what is your reality that explains this observation?
Actually what Ironside is trying to explain, is partly about the philosophical notion of properly basic belief in Platinga's system. -
This is big can of worms. Nostrodamus prophecies also came true.Originally posted by Raptured:Pls dont depend on people to prove to you. You have to do a bit of searching yourself. Maybe you would want to try prophecies in the bible to see if they are coming true or not. Bcos if prophecies can come true, then some Being knows the past to the future. Maybe you can look at prophecies that came true last time thruout history correlated to the bible, like wars, destruction of nations, empires that arose etc & check the authenticity of these prophecies recorded in the bible.
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Evidence that is properly tested and accepted and not evidence that is of dubious value.Originally posted by Icemoon:Evidence? The Christians here are directing you towards the evidence, but instead of engaging them (like our SIS last time), you ignored them.
Reality? What reality? How does the faith clash with your reality? The reality is cancer cells can just disappear(go read the story of Gurmit Singh's mother), what is your reality that explains this observation?
Actually what Ironside is trying to explain, is partly about the philosophical notion of properly basic belief in Platinga's system.
Anybody can claim to have evidence. Look at my debate with the Buddhists. They too have "evidence."
Since both the Christians and the Buddhists claim to have "evidence" and yet their worldview is completely different and one cannot exist with the other; I can only conclude that both are based on fantasy and imagination and would rather stick with reality and assertions based on properly derived evidence. -
The book I refer to you earlier contains comprehensive research done on the answers you seek, and you had dismissed it without even looking at it, just because I refuse to type out the thousands of pages here for you (don't think I ever want to do this), anyway, I managed to find a more concise online version of it for you.Originally posted by casino_king:Evidence that is properly tested and accepted and not evidence that is of dubious value.
Anybody can claim to have evidence. Look at my debate with the Buddhists. They too have "evidence."
Since both the Christians and the Buddhists claim to have "evidence" and yet their worldview is completely different and one cannot exist with the other; I can only conclude that both are based on fantasy and imagination and would rather stick with reality and assertions based on properly derived evidence.
"The Case For Christ - Examine The Evidence"
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/the-case-for-christ.htm
The Case for Christ - The Hearing
Is there a case for Christ? If there were to be an arbitrary legal hearing - a court case to determine whether or not Jesus Christ is in fact the only begotten Son of God - would He be vindicated by the evidence, or exposed as a fraud? -
Haha .. if you're talking about historical evidence, then which ones are properly tested and accepted? What about the existence of King David and Solemon Temple?Originally posted by casino_king:Evidence that is properly tested and accepted and not evidence that is of dubious value.
Anybody can claim to have evidence. Look at my debate with the Buddhists. They too have "evidence."
Since both the Christians and the Buddhists claim to have "evidence" and yet their worldview is completely different and one cannot exist with the other; I can only conclude that both are based on fantasy and imagination and would rather stick with reality and assertions based on properly derived evidence.
Buddhists have evidence of what? That Prince Siddharata Gautama sat under Bodhi tree and not durian tree?
But your reality and assertions are not contradictory to the assertions made in Buddhism and Christianity. For example, Christians didn't assert there are no such thing as gravity and atoms.
On the other hand, Christians assert that there is a God, which of course will not be contradicted by reality from physical science. -
casino king, you got traumatic experience issit?
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to casino king...i believe u have seen the picture of albert einstein before? nw let me ask u: wad prove fo u have tat he realli looked like tat in real life? unless u telling me u dun believe he realli look like tat...
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or how abt tis, have u seen napolean bonaparte before? then how u noe he exist? juz cos history books record his existence? well, bible records God, jesus n holy spirit's existence...
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How can you say there is no evidence? It is all around you. Just take a good look. Do some soul searching and then speak. Go check your facts, Jesus is real. He is recorded in jewish history till today. Go and check you facts.Originally posted by casino_king:Actually I feel quite bad after reading the posts. It seems harmless for you to indulge in your fantasies. So it seems pointless for me to "wake you up" however good my intentions are.
My position is this; if there is no evidence, then you cannot believe it. If it is against reality; you cannot believe it. Hold firm to reality and find solutions based on reality and not based on fantasy and imagination.
If you say that I do not know everything and so I cannot say for certain that you are wrong; I repeat myself here: if you cannot show me that you are right, I rather go with people who can show me prove that they are right. I will not go with people who tell me fantasy and then say that there is no way I can prove that the fantasies are not real. I hope you get the point.
But like I say, there is not much harm as far as I can see for children to believe in santa claus and that santa will give them presents on Christmas day if they were good.
But I sincerely belive that it is much better for the children to know and understand that the presents come from their parents who love them rather than from some imaginary being.
You want to talk about reality... then your reality may actually be the illusion and our reality may be the real thing. You cannot talk about reality without talking about perception, therefore, how can your argument stand? Can you be sure that the reality that you hold firm to is the right one? Then again, what is real and what is not? Are you sure you are believing the right thing? Who here has to wake up?
Neither can you show us that you are right, can you prove for certain that God did not create the univers and hence the earth and by extrapolation, us? Are you the one having the fantasy? Can you say for certain that you are not having a fantasy?
All children find out about santa eventually, so what are you griping about here? Anyway santa is not part of Christianity.. -
How can you say there is no evidence? It is all around you. Just take a good look. Do some soul searching and then speak. Go check your facts, Jesus is real. He is recorded in jewish history till today. Go and check you facts.
my sentiments exactly!!!
You want to talk about reality... then your reality may actually be the illusion and our reality may be the real thing. You cannot talk about reality without talking about perception, therefore, how can your argument stand? Can you be sure that the reality that you hold firm to is the right one? Then again, what is real and what is not? Are you sure you are believing the right thing? Who here has to wake up?
Neither can you show us that you are right, can you prove for certain that God did not create the univers and hence the earth and by extrapolation, us? Are you the one having the fantasy? Can you say for certain that you are not having a fantasy?
All children find out about santa eventually, so what are you griping about here? Anyway santa is not part of Christianity.. -
casino king will respond:Originally posted by despondent:to casino king...i believe u have seen the picture of albert einstein before? nw let me ask u: wad prove fo u have tat he realli looked like tat in real life? unless u telling me u dun believe he realli look like tat...
the whole world believes he looked that way, ie. there is no contradictory position regarding his looks.
We can still find people who've seen Einstein before. Einstein died in 1955 (I think) only. -
My respond:Originally posted by despondent:or how abt tis, have u seen napolean bonaparte before? then how u noe he exist? juz cos history books record his existence? well, bible records God, jesus n holy spirit's existence...
well .. at least Napolean didn't resurrect. His tomb is not empty.
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to icemoon
ok then how abt napolean bonaparte? he existed several hundred yrs ago...anyone in our generation seen him? n anyway let me ask: so if one day all say jesus did exist, wil u believe then? -
to icemoon: well then, have u seen his tomb? have u gone to check if he is stil in it? how u noe he existed? is there anyone in modern era who has seen napolean?
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There is a difference between a verifiable test and unverifiable test. Science works on the former.Originally posted by despondent:to icemoon: well then, have u seen his tomb? have u gone to check if he is stil in it? how u noe he existed? is there anyone in modern era who has seen napolean?
If there is no way to ascertain Jesus' existence .. then you can argue until the cows come home.
But Napolean made big impact during his time. He was emperor of France at one time right? -
who wrote tat napolean was a great man during his time? the history bks? well, then let me ask...how do u noe the scientists were nt lying? how u noe the historians were nt lying? by doubting existence of God n jesus, u r sayingthe bible writers were lying...by the way, if u even bother to check the archives, the bible was completed in 97AD...
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lol .. the Battle of Waterloo you know when or not? And remember Tchaikovsky's 1812 overtune?Originally posted by despondent:to icemoon
ok then how abt napolean bonaparte? he existed several hundred yrs ago...anyone in our generation seen him? n anyway let me ask: so if one day all say jesus did exist, wil u believe then?
Where got several hundred years?
Napoleon affected the whole Europe and even Russia. There are no dissenting views on his existence lah. -
The scientists and historians lie for what? What do they have to gain? Can't be France and Europe and Russia all lying right?Originally posted by despondent:who wrote tat napolean was a great man during his time? the history bks? well, then let me ask...how do u noe the scientists were nt lying? how u noe the historians were nt lying? by doubting existence of God n jesus, u r sayingthe bible writers were lying...by the way, if u even bother to check the archives, the bible was completed in 97AD...
The Quran was completed around 600AD and it gave conflicting accounts of Jesus on his resurrection.