Lets talk about Jesus.
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Sorry I have to log off - will come back tommorrow for further discussions
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Hi,Originally posted by casino_king:I do not do flame wars. Anyone flame me I just ignore them.
There is no evidence of God and the Holy Spirit. There might be some evidence that a man named Jesus once existed on earth but there is certainly no evidence that he ressurected and that he is still alive.
If God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is in existence; why go into hiding and not just appear and demand that all man worship him/them?
I am glad you ask this question regarding the evidence of God/Holy Spirit/Jesus.
May I recommend you this book by Josh mcDowell
"Evidence That Demands a Verdict", it this book, you can find the gathering of evidence that you are looking for,
Volume 1 deals more with the life of Christ and New Testament events.
Volume 2 addresses things like archaeology, form criticism, literary criticism, and historical research into the claims of the Bible.
I wish you well on your jouney to look for the truth, and may you find the true Christ. God Bless.
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Our ancestor, Adam and Eve . They were first created to enjoy life and close intimacy with God but they sinned against our God. There is no law until Moses times and during their times, if they committed any sin , they can ask for forgviness by offering and a sincere heart. When Jesus came, we all have easy access to salvation which requires only faith. He loves us so much that He gives us freedom to choose to believe in him or not. He still loves us even if we do not believe in Him. He did not create us to suffer but He created us purely because of love.Originally posted by casino_king:BEST OF ALL - why would a so called Good God create man so that he can send them to suffer in hell for eternity? -
First, give us conclusive and definitive proofs that miracles do not happen.Originally posted by casino_king:Very simple; when people give testimonies you tell whether or not you can believe them (they might not necessarily be lying but were in a state of self delusion) by looking at internal incoherance.
The accounts of Jesus birth, the Christmas story is based on something fantastic. A virgin birth. In ancient times before people understand reproductive science it does not seem incredible but with today's knowledge we know for a fact that it is an impossibility, fiction.
The accounts of the Christmas story is different in the GMatthew and GLuke. Since you are a christian, can you tell me what the differences are and how you account for the differences.
Even without having to refer to these so called affidavits; the whole christian faith rests on the premise that there is a God; no proof is forthcoming for the existence of God. No answer is forthcoming as to why a Good God should chose to hide and why a Good God would allow evil and suffering.
One logician said: "Do not commit yourself to negatives. for that supposes that you are in possession of all the facts"
If one says that miracles cannot happen that means he has thorough knowledge of all that has taken place in every land on earth in all of time in history.
Second. it is good that you use the word different in the accounts of Matthew and Luke. Different doesn't necessarily mean contradictictory right?
Third. About the existence of God.
Again do not commit yourself to a negative.
For it means that you have surveyed all the universe, visited every galaxy, star and planets.......rummaged it all and found none.
About suffering in the universe:
maybe the Bible statements are true. That this mess is caused by sin.. right?
P.S. if you wish to get an explanation of Matthew and Luke differences ......can i send it to you through PM........i think we are out of line already from the topic.
The topic is good............i do not want to mess it up. -
Hi,Originally posted by casino_king:That is why I am asking a very simple question; what does believing in fantasy do for you believers? I am not asking you to give up your imaginary friends but am just simply asking what good it does. People of some faith are willing to die for their imaginary friends and have bloody protests to defend their fiction writers. What actually does believing in unproven unvarifiable fiction do for you to merit such behavior?
after reading some of your post here, you remind me of myself (when I was much younger and before I make the decision to follow Christ), in that I question the existence of God/Jesus ...etc, yet there was this constant void inside me to find the meaning of my own existence, surely there is a deeper meaning as to why am I here? This void inside me drove me into searching, evolutions, ufo, cultic practices, witchcrafts (never get to practice any, no guts to do it), all these does not satisfy me, until I across the Bible, I read about Jesus, that I find a God who loves me, a savior who had died for me, that a new sense of peace, joy and hope well up from inside of me that I had never experienced before, its is then that I decide to receive Christ into my life and put my life into His loving hands. -
havent u learned from john?.
a man asked john 3 times not 1 not 2 but 3 times.
do u know jesus?
he answered no....
and GOD is ih yr heart and mind..
god = u dont use this(as this can means idols and other gods)
GOD = u use this inrefering to GOD
if u ignore GOD ..HE will still be there for u..
the trials u are suffering...is only a trial..he will never let u suffer nor forsaken u...
HE"S one and all..knows everything and anything(even my IQ question)
hehe
maybe u should try praying to HIM?
u can jsut talk anything to him....
he'll be ther for u..
if he dont answer your prayer doesn't mean he have forsaken u..
he's planning SOMETHING BETTER for u!...
it may be 1 year...2 years or 10 years..he will always be there 4 u..
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EXAMPLE
a group of ppl picnic nearby a lake....they pray for good weather...they pray to GOD for it..
but when they arrive there...it was raining like hell...
they started to scold GOD for not granting their wishes..
but on the other side of the lake...which is experiencing a vv dry season they pray to GOD for rain..and GOD gave them,..
so do u see my point?
if there is no rain...then the harvest would be fail and the farmers would starve..
so just dont just think that GOD is unfair or do not asnwer yr prayers..
try and see the bigger picture?.
do not let the devil insert doubt into u...
have FAITH and believe in HIM!.
that's all i can say..
there will be trials and tribulation even thoiught u r a christian...maybe MORE ..
but he's watching over you....just believe in him..
AMEN! -
Well for starters, if you think that Biblical characters and stories are fantasies, then you have already made up your mind, no point going further than that.Originally posted by casino_king:Can anyone of you explain to me the benefits of believing in fantasy characters and stories like it is for real? I am sure that there must be benefits in believing in fiction but then I see the downside - like the cartoon protests.
That being the case, you don't really need to know the reason for such beliefs, do you? Afterall they are unreal to you. Any reasons we can give would also be of some fantasy nature, isn't it?
So realistically speaking, there is very little to gain by either of us in any of this discussion: you from listening to a fantasy that I believe to be true, and I from telling you something that I believe to be true, but you would consider a fantasy regardless of....
With great amicablity, end of discussion.... both you and I do not need to waste anymore time that we will not get back.... -
Well said CE... I am of the same opinionOriginally posted by Chin Eng:Well for starters, if you think that Biblical characters and stories are fantasies, then you have already made up your mind, no point going further than that.
That being the case, you don't really need to know the reason for such beliefs, do you? Afterall they are unreal to you. Any reasons we can give would also be of some fantasy nature, isn't it?
So realistically speaking, there is very little to gain by either of us in any of this discussion: you from listening to a fantasy that I believe to be true, and I from telling you something that I believe to be true, but you would consider a fantasy regardless of....
With great amicablity, end of discussion.... both you and I do not need to waste anymore time that we will not get back....
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Again I ask, What defines a true christian? To me, a true christian is a follower of christ teachings. Its as simple as that. The teachings of Jesus are filled with love. In fact, all religious teachings are filled with love. Any teachings that does not consist of love will cause discontent among others.Originally posted by casino_king:You sound very resonable and so I doubt that you are a true christian. christians preach hell fire and eternal suffering... not love. So, use your intuition and common sense. 
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It doesnt work that way you see. Remember that nothing is as it seems.Originally posted by casino_king:Use your intuition and you will see that the earth is flat and that the sun revolves around the earth.
Instead of intuition; replace the word with self delusion and you will see what I mean. I trust my own intuition. In fact, I would say you are the one who is living in a world of self delusion obscured from truth. -
*pengz*Originally posted by shade343:It doesnt work that way you see. Remember that nothing is as it seems. I trust my own intuition. In fact, I would say you are the one who is living in a world of self delusion obscured from truth.
I think the Christians in this forum are going to use this against shady ..
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Ingenious of you to refer me to some book. Can you please respond to posts directly? For example you might say: "According to such and such a book...." Instead of asking people to go and read the book themselves?Originally posted by vince69:Hi,
I am glad you ask this question regarding the evidence of God/Holy Spirit/Jesus.
May I recommend you this book by Josh mcDowell
"Evidence That Demands a Verdict", it this book, you can find the gathering of evidence that you are looking for,
Volume 1 deals more with the life of Christ and New Testament events.
Volume 2 addresses things like archaeology, form criticism, literary criticism, and historical research into the claims of the Bible.
I wish you well on your jouney to look for the truth, and may you find the true Christ. God Bless. -
Christians claim that GOD knows everything from past and the future? HE would know that Adam will sin right? HE would have known that most will not accept CHRIST right? But he went ahead to create man only so that they can suffer in hell for eternity right?Originally posted by brown_obsession:Our ancestor, Adam and Eve . They were first created to enjoy life and close intimacy with God but they sinned against our God. There is no law until Moses times and during their times, if they committed any sin , they can ask for forgviness by offering and a sincere heart. When Jesus came, we all have easy access to salvation which requires only faith. He loves us so much that He gives us freedom to choose to believe in him or not. He still loves us even if we do not believe in Him. He did not create us to suffer but He created us purely because of love.
We have not even touched on suffering right here on earth. Do you deny that there is suffering on earth?
And more about the internal incoherence. That there are many denominations shows that there are many interpretations. You are not going to have many different interpretations for say the Theory of Gravity. If anybody wants to suggest something better than Newton's, like Einstein, he backs it up with mathematics and research was done to verify his theory.
Fantasy and imagination is open to interpretation and anybody can fantasize about anything and call his interpretation the truth without any basis. So it is better to stick with reality that you can observe to be true or false. -
This was the same response I got from the Buddhists. "If you cannot prove that something does not exixt; well it must exists!"Originally posted by Ironside:First, give us conclusive and definitive proofs that miracles do not happen.
One logician said: "Do not commit yourself to negatives. for that supposes that you are in possession of all the facts"
If one says that miracles cannot happen that means he has thorough knowledge of all that has taken place in every land on earth in all of time in history.
Second. it is good that you use the word different in the accounts of Matthew and Luke. Different doesn't necessarily mean contradictictory right?
Third. About the existence of God.
Again do not commit yourself to a negative.
For it means that you have surveyed all the universe, visited every galaxy, star and planets.......rummaged it all and found none.
About suffering in the universe:
maybe the Bible statements are true. That this mess is caused by sin.. right?
P.S. if you wish to get an explanation of Matthew and Luke differences ......can i send it to you through PM........i think we are out of line already from the topic.
The topic is good............i do not want to mess it up.
Like I said over there; I cannot prove that you are not a murderer so you must be a murderer and deserves to be hanged.
We are talking about Jesus here and whether the accounts in the Bible can be trusted. We then go on to say that there are internal incoherences (contradictions) in the accounts so that little weight must be given to these accounts.
So the internal incoherances in GMatthew and GLuke are relevant to these discussions. There is no need to resort to PM -
sorry have to log off - will be back in the evening
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Ok will be expecting you my friendOriginally posted by casino_king:sorry have to log off - will be back in the evening
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Yea He knows but He doesnt create us to suffer in hell for eternity . He gives Adam a freedom to choose not to sin, God even told Adam before he sinned ,"You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die" . After Adam sinned, God did not punish Adam with death penalty but instead He gave him a chance and removed him from the garden along with Eve.Originally posted by casino_king:Christians claim that GOD knows everything from past and the future? HE would know that Adam will sin right? HE would have known that most will not accept CHRIST right? But he went ahead to create man only so that they can suffer in hell for eternity right?
We have not even touched on suffering right here on earth. Do you deny that there is suffering on earth?
And more about the internal incoherence. That there are many denominations shows that there are many interpretations. You are not going to have many different interpretations for say the Theory of Gravity. If anybody wants to suggest something better than Newton's, like Einstein, he backs it up with mathematics and research was done to verify his theory.
Fantasy and imagination is open to interpretation and anybody can fantasize about anything and call his interpretation the truth without any basis. So it is better to stick with reality that you can observe to be true or false.
Sorry but i cannot formulate or come up with theory to back the bible like what Einstein and Newton did. Instead of being sceptical , why not try to be open-minded?
so if anyone can fantasize about anything and call his interpretation the truth without any basis , i would like to say the actual person who came up with Theory of Gravity first is actually an Asian but unfortunately he sat under the durian tree. (no basis but i think is the truth , u cannot fault me cos it is my fantasy hahahahaha)
anyway , ill buy a bible if u willing to read it . PM if u r interested
I do not deny there is suffering on earth. -
Originally posted by casino_king:Ingenious of you to refer me to some book. Can you please respond to posts directly? For example you might say: "According to such and such a book...." Instead of asking people to go and read the book themselves? all you need to know about Christ is in the Bible, and if you still don't know, there are thousands of books you can read. This is like a salesman selling his products with many many guidebooks, spec books, ...but you are not sure if the salesman has used it, though he said he did and feel good about it.
Usually reading the guidebooks and listening to salesman like that will not get you anywhere. but if your interest is purely academic about the "fantasy" we believe, the Bible you must read, the the 4 gospels talking about jesus. then there can be more sensible discussion. But academic research and discussion will not change life!! but a lot of doctors and professors in science and technologies are Christians, wonder why??
Do you have a religion? Do you have Christian friends and what do you see in them? How do you define a "true Christian" or a "false Christian"? From where did you get the impression that "Christians preach hell fire and eternal suffering"? -
actually i think most of them just treat the religion with indifference, probably converted or born with it due to family or friends so they can maintain their social circle.Originally posted by sgdiehard:But academic research and discussion will not change life!! but a lot of doctors and professors in science and technologies are Christians, wonder why?? -
Though I have no data to support this, based on what I've encountered seems that Christians who are doctors, scientists and researchers hold the Bible very highly in their life. Many of these people are also active missionaries and would put any of the Christians (me included) to shame with their fervency.Originally posted by Ito_^:actually i think most of them just treat the religion with indifference, probably converted or born with it due to family or friends so they can maintain their social circle. -
the reason y there r many interpretations from diff. denominations is cos man is limeted in our understanding...unless u casino king is suggesting tat u r the one perfect being on earth who noes everything? God n His Word is perfect n we man r imperfect...can the imperfect ever fully understand the perfect?can the created be greater than the creator?so if ur mind is limited n nt perfect in understanding...its nt surprising tat there can be diff. interpretations to scriptures...n like one of the replies said....(sorry forgot ur name), diff. doesnt mean contradict...so humans wif imperfect minds can onli grasp tis much abt the perfect God...n to try to understand Him without being in a r/s wif Him is even more impossible...do u noe someone betta by reaing n asking abt him or to experience him n noe him for urself? bsides, if u r so sure theres no God, then no harm trying to believe in christianity...if theres realli no God u wun ever be a christian...so y nt try believing in sth u dun believe exist? since u so sure he doesnt exist, it wun hurt to try rite?
abt suffering...its amazing tat christianity remains the onli religion other than judaism tat preach tat the world wil experience more suffering in the end times...reincarnation serves the purpose of making the world a betta place...after so many yrs, of reincarnation...is the world getting betta? if God was merciless n cruel, we wun even be toking here...He can easily wipe out all of us from the face of tis earth...most other religions tok abt doing gd so to make the world a betta place...thousands of yrs have passed, is the world getting betta? instead of asking y God allow suffering, y dun ask how come when bible tok abt suffering in the last days...it turns out to be true?
n lastly, if u wanna noe answers to all these qns, y nt attend a church and ask the pastor urself? in sch, when u dunno sth, do u ask the student or the teacher? a student is limited in wad he noes...but the teacher noes much more...n of cuz u can ask the greatestteacher of all who can nvr be wrong n noes all His facts, God the Father!!! praise be to GOd!!! -
Originally posted by despondent:the reason y there r many interpretations from diff. denominations is cos man is limeted in our understanding...unless u casino king is suggesting tat u r the one perfect being on earth who noes everything? God n His Word is perfect n we man r imperfect...can the imperfect ever fully understand the perfect?can the created be greater than the creator?so if ur mind is limited n nt perfect in understanding...its nt surprising tat thre can be diff. interpretations to scriptures...n like one of the replies said....(sorry forgot ur name), diff. doesnt mean contradict...
abt suffering...its amazing tat christianity remains the onli religion other than judaism tat preach tat the world wil experience more suffering in the end times...reincarnation serves the purpose of making the world a betta place...after so many yrs, of reincarnation...is the world getting betta? if God was merciless n cruel, we wun even be toking here...He can easily wipe out all of us from the face of tis earth...most other religions tok abt doing gd so to make the world a betta place...thousands of yrs have passed, is the world getting betta? instead of asking y od allow suffering, y dun ask how come when bible tok abt suffering in the last days...it turns out to be true?
n lastly, if u wanna noe answers to all these qns, y nt attend a church and ask the pastor urself? in sch, when u dunno sth, do u ask the student or the teacher? a student is limited in wad he noes...but the teacher noes much more...n of cuz u can ask the greatestteacher of all who can nvr be wrong n noes all His facts, God the Father!!! praise be to GOd!!!
difficult to read man.... I hope you don't write like that in your school assignments.... -
Are you suffering from some kind of unfairness in your life right now? Are you feeling alone by yourself? Are you going thru some suffering which you feel is unfair or do you see someone suffering unfairly? I was like that last time. I questioned God's fairness bitterly. How can a loving God allow people to go to hell or suffer? BUT i must remind you. There is not just God around here. The devil is working behind the scenes also. I want to tell you there is a devil. He is the master of pain, death, deception & he is rebelling against God. I didnt know i was tricked by satan last time. I didnt know he was responsible for my suffering & responsible for so many people going to hell by his deceptive lies.Originally posted by casino_king:Christians claim that GOD knows everything from past and the future? HE would know that Adam will sin right? HE would have known that most will not accept CHRIST right? But he went ahead to create man only so that they can suffer in hell for eternity right?
We have not even touched on suffering right here on earth. Do you deny that there is suffering on earth?
And more about the internal incoherence. That there are many denominations shows that there are many interpretations. You are not going to have many different interpretations for say the Theory of Gravity. If anybody wants to suggest something better than Newton's, like Einstein, he backs it up with mathematics and research was done to verify his theory.
Fantasy and imagination is open to interpretation and anybody can fantasize about anything and call his interpretation the truth without any basis. So it is better to stick with reality that you can observe to be true or false.
The devil is a very powerful fallen angel. God describes him in the book of Job as a very powerful monster or serpent. Nobody can stand up to him alone without God's help. God had to allow suffering bcos of sin. God had to allow people to go to hell bcos of unforgiven sins. He hurts also when one soul perishes.
Regarding the interpretations, people will see things differently but that doesnt mean they contradict. One could notice one aspect & another could see another aspect but they can fit in harmoniusly. No one person is alike in character or temperament. Regarding fantastic interpretations of the bible, I think more Christians should go to bible college or attend bible classes to have the correct interpretation method taught. I think the problem you mentioned arises with charismatic teachings who always depend on the Spirit until they twist the Word. I guess they quote out of context or worse still they quote to satisfy their lusts. So i am against new age teaching. -
Raptured, you're not answering casino_king's questions. In fact you are making it worse ..
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Sorry casino_king. I am not a pastor. I think you should go to church & address this to a pastor who is trained in theology etc. I am just telling my personal experience. Sorry Icemoon. I think casino_king wont be so easily convinced anyway. You see his nick. Casino king. He needs to deal with his gambling problem first. Just joking. Casino_king pls dont be angry. Maybe you can post on my threads about casino & toto.Originally posted by Icemoon:Raptured, you're not answering casino_king's questions. In fact you are making it worse ..