Lets talk about Jesus.
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Originally posted by breytonhartge:
Probably I wasn't clear enough.
[b]Actually come to think of it, you are skirting the issue. The original issue is tithing. I said abraham tithed. I have also backed this up with biblical support. Gen 14. So the issue is not what abraham tithed, it is whether he did tithe. And this he did.
it is obvious that your comprehension skills are a little wanting so I will not discuss this topic with you any further. I believe that I have made my point. You are free to ramble on if you so wish.
Cheers
[/b]
There are two issues you have to deal with. The burden of proof is on your side remember?
1. Was Abraham tithing in the biblical sense?
There is no mention he was tithing in the biblical sense. All that was said was he paid 10%. We're not sure the nature of this 10%.
2. Were those "goods" (and people?) Abraham's property?
Tithing is always defined in terms of your own possession. You don't rob people and call it tithing. I remember the Bible wrote something about tithing your farm produce or something like that.
Abraham did say out loud those were not his property. Even though he was referring to the goods sans the 10%, it is clear the 10% is also included in the definition of the goods. Otherwise you need to establish the 10% were his property and the rest were not. -
did I say I am not sure its correctness, I said its my personal way of seeing things. I also say, others may have their own way of doing this.Originally posted by sgdiehard:why use the word tithe in the first place, if you are not sure if it is correct.
The most important part is Christians must offer, in response to the love and grace of God. Such offering would include our time, our possessions,........
Willingness and thankfulness is part of your offering.
to keep things simple, when it comes to offering, give whatever you can, especially where the needs are there, don't count, 10% or not.
I use 10% of gross (the rounding up is for ease of computation for myself)
I also know of others who use nett as the basis/ there are some who use 'left overs' (meaning nett - expenses), there are even some who do not believe in tithing, who am I to comment or judge them, afterall titheing is between the person and God (I only need to do my part).
Also in my post, I had already say, the most important part of the tithe is the attitude of a willing/thankful heart, without this, even if you give everything 100% to God also no use.
one more thing, doesn't means one who give more is better than the one who give less, the heart attitude is more important the amount. with the right attitude, you will be blessed.
God Bless
one more thing, I had say this before, I am going to say this again, if you do not have the conviction to tithe, or that you feel that you do not have the means to tithe, or are unwilling to do it (this part I am not sure, cause I really don't know much of your situation) for whatever reason you have or whatever situation you are in. Please don't tithe. cause without the right understanding/attitude on giving the tithe to God, there is no point doing it, cause its won't be acceptable before God (and God won't goes bankrupt either).
However, Please continue to attend Church service and fellowship, God won't stop showing grace to you (grace is unmerited favor, no need to work for it, else it will be called a reward).
Until you have the right understanding on why you tithe, then out of the abundance of God that had blessed you with, you tithe.
I tithe because I wanted to tithe because I am thankful for all the things that God had blessed me with.
God bless.
----- to the rest, sorry, a little long winded--- -
you did mention that "doesn't means its the definite correct method".Originally posted by vince69:did I say I am not sure its correctness, I said its my personal way of seeing things. I also say, others may have their own way of doing this.
if it is said that "tithing is not an option, it is a command from God, and if we do not tithe, we are robbing God and we come under a curse", it is not a matter of believing or not. But how can such as judgement be made on something that is a moving target and is subject to individual's definition?? do you include the employer's cpf contribution which is 13%, and do you include the benefits in kind given by your company. On the other hand, a person choose to use "left overs' (nett-expenses) and offer 30% of that, would he then be considered to have offered more than tithe and receiving greater blessing?Originally posted by vince69:I use 10% of gross (the rounding up is for ease of computation for myself)
I also know of others who use nett as the basis/ there are some who use 'left overs' (meaning nett - expenses), there are even some who do not believe in tithing, who am I to comment or judge them, afterall titheing is between the person and God (I only need to do my part).
If it is a law, it makes no diff whether you obey it willingly or not, you obey the law. The lesson on giving more or less is found in Mark12:41, the widow's offering.Originally posted by vince69:Also in my post, I had already say, the most important part of the tithe is the attitude of a willing/thankful heart, without this, even if you give everything 100% to God also no use.
one more thing, doesn't means one who give more is better than the one who give less, the heart attitude is more important the amount. with the right attitude, you will be blessed.
everything we have are blessings from God and what does Jesus expect from his followers? "go, sell your possessions and give to the poor...then come follow me." Matthew 19:21.Originally posted by vince69:one more thing, I had say this before, I am going to say this again, if you do not have the conviction to tithe, or that you feel that you do not have the means to tithe, or are unwilling to do it (this part I am not sure, cause I really don't know much of your situation) for whatever reason you have or whatever situation you are in. Please don't tithe. cause [b]without the right understanding/attitude on giving the tithe to God, there is no point doing it, cause its won't be acceptable before God (and God won't goes bankrupt either).
However, Please continue to attend Church service and fellowship, God won't stop showing grace to you (grace is unmerited favor, no need to work for it, else it will be called a reward).
Until you have the right understanding on why you tithe, then out of the abundance of God that had blessed you with, you tithe.[/b][/quote]sounds like saying "if you don't understand the ten commandments, please don't follow, there is no point doing it, cause...."
[quote]Originally posted by vince69:
I tithe because I wanted to tithe because I am thankful for all the things that God had blessed me with.---
How much I offer is between me and God, but I don't declare to the world that I offer 10% of what I have. -
sgdiehard
like I said, this is my way of seeing things, if you think yours is better, so be it.
I only need to know I am doing my part, as long as you are happy with how you are doing it, so be it also.
Like I said also, I am in no position to judge anyone, so neither am I going to say my interpretation is the only way.
I am just sharing my own conviction here, if you does not agree, so be it also.
God Bless -
sgdiehard,
1. you do not need to declare your income to the whole world, tithing is a private matter between you and God. But please note, there is a difference between tithing and offering. Tithing is a requirement, a commandment. Offering is out of freewill. The offering is to be given above the tithe and cannot be given in replacement of the tithe.
2.how much do you need to tithe? well, if you are sensitive to the Holy Spirit and will spend time with God, He will tell you how much you need to tithe and what you need to take into consideration when you do your calculations for tithing. Our God is a very specific God. If you ask Him, He will answer. You just have to be quite before Him.
3.we are under grace and not law. So that though tithing is a commandment, if we fall, we can come before God through our salvation by Jesus and God will grant us grace to grow and to learn, and the grace to give us the revelation of why we tithe. God's grace is not grace to continuine sinning in our lives, it is grace to learn how to keep His commandments and to keep His word.
4. the bible also does say that with the measure you give shall be the measure you receive.
5. vince is right, it is upto you to do things as the LORD leads you. Your life, your call, your responsibility. -
vince69Originally posted by vince69:sgdiehard
like I said, this is my way of seeing things, if you think yours is better, so be it.
I only need to know I am doing my part, as long as you are happy with how you are doing it, so be it also.
Like I said also, I am in no position to judge anyone, so neither am I going to say my interpretation is the only way.
I am just sharing my own conviction here, if you does not agree, so be it also.
God Bless
all my questions were not directing at you, and I am not even intending to find a better way.
conviction is a big word and it is not for anybody to agree with what you believe.
but since this is a discussion forum I ask why people do things the way they do. Whether a Christian offer $1000 or two very small copper coins, is really between him and God. But if somebody says they offer 10%, or you need to offer 10% or the curse is upon you, I just ask 10% of what?? I respect your "this is my way" but I do not consider this an answer to the question.
There is really nothing between me and you, whether i am happy with my part or if you are doing your part.
Cheers. -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:
Brey,
sgdiehard,
1. you do not need to declare your income to the whole world, tithing is a private matter between you and God. But please note, there is a difference between tithing and offering. Tithing is a requirement, a commandment. Offering is out of freewill. The offering is to be given above the tithe and cannot be given in replacement of the tithe.
2.how much do you need to tithe? well, if you are sensitive to the Holy Spirit and will spend time with God, He will tell you how much you need to tithe and what you need to take into consideration when you do your calculations for tithing. Our God is a very specific God. If you ask Him, He will answer. You just have to be quite before Him.
3.we are under grace and not law. So that though tithing is a commandment, if we fall, we can come before God through our salvation by Jesus and God will grant us grace to grow and to learn, and the grace to give us the revelation of why we tithe. [b]God's grace is not grace to continuine sinning in our lives, it is grace to learn how to keep His commandments and to keep His word.
4. the bible also does say that with the measure you give shall be the measure you receive.
5. vince is right, it is upto you to do things as the LORD leads you. Your life, your call, your responsibility. [/b]
I have no disagreement in the things you say.
There are issues that may be theological and I don't intend to go into a debate. Is tithing, a law in the old testament or a command by Jesus? in its original meaning, is it applicable in this era? did Jesus not teach us that everything we have belong to God (not just 10%), and what God sees is the heart of those who offer? Don't need to answer me on this for I really don't want to start a debate.
But to those who say we must do tithing or curse will be on you, I just ask "10% of what"? all you have or all you earn? how would you tell a new christian about this? if it is 10% that we must offer, then it is not our call anymore; we can say we offer as the spirit leads us, but if we say you must offer 10%, are we leaving the spirit to decide 10% of what?
This is just a question for those of you who are very convicted in tithing, out of curiosity. It is not a question to find out what is right or wrong. -
sgdiehard,Originally posted by sgdiehard:vince69
all my questions were not directing at you, and I am not even intending to find a better way.
conviction is a big word and it is not for anybody to agree with what you believe.
but since this is a discussion forum I ask why people do things the way they do. Whether a Christian offer $1000 or two very small copper coins, is really between him and God. But if somebody says they offer 10%, or you need to offer 10% or the curse is upon you, I just ask 10% of what?? I respect your "this is my way" but I do not consider this an answer to the question.
There is really nothing between me and you, whether i am happy with my part or if you are doing your part.
Cheers.
ok, thought you were refering to me, cause you quoted me mah...
sorry for the misunderstanding...
Cheers and God Bless... -
Hey,Originally posted by sgdiehard:But to those who say we must do tithing or curse will be on you, I just ask "10% of what"? all you have or all you earn? how would you tell a new christian about this? if it is 10% that we must offer, then it is not our call anymore; we can say we offer as the spirit leads us, but if we say you must offer 10%, are we leaving the spirit to decide 10% of what?
This is just a question for those of you who are very convicted in tithing, out of curiosity. It is not a question to find out what is right or wrong.
don't confuse the words. Tithing is tithing. Offering is offering. Separate things.
Tithing is a tenth or 10%. Of what? Well everything that we own is purchased with God's money so if you want to get technical, 10% of everything should be tithed to God.
but since most of us become Christians at various stages, the more accepted thing today is 10% of your gross income. Tithing is usually taken out of the produce of the land or of the fruits or efforts of your labour.
Should the Holy Spirit convict you to tithe on things that you had not thought about before, then do it, if not, if God gives you peace, then rest in that peace and no need to strive with it anymore.
i think the most important thing is to let GOD lead. In Matt 6, Jesus tells us in there not to worry 3 times. So once God has settled it for you in your own heart, just let it be. This conviction and revelation of tithing is I think also a very personal thing between you and God.
Take the general guide as 10% of your gross income. If God wants to add to it, He will let you know I am sure.
Malachi 3:6-9 6 “ For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. 7 Yet from the days of your fathers You have gone away from My ordinances And have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you,” Says the LORD of hosts. “ But you said, ‘ In what way shall we return?’ 8 “ Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, ‘ In what way have we robbed You?’ In tithes and offerings. 9 You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation.
Note here that God also makes the distinction between tithing and offering.
FYI.
God Bless
Brey -
hello,Originally posted by breytonhartge:Hey,
don't confuse the words. Tithing is tithing. Offering is offering. Separate things.
Tithing is a tenth or 10%. Of what? Well everything that we own is purchased with God's money so if you want to get technical, 10% of everything should be tithed to God.
but since most of us become Christians at various stages, the more accepted thing today is 10% of your gross income. Tithing is usually taken out of the produce of the land or of the fruits or efforts of your labour.
Should the Holy Spirit convict you to tithe on things that you had not thought about before, then do it, if not, if God gives you peace, then rest in that peace and no need to strive with it anymore.
i think the most important thing is to let GOD lead. In Matt 6, Jesus tells us in there not to worry 3 times. So once God has settled it for you in your own heart, just let it be. This conviction and revelation of tithing is I think also a very personal thing between you and God.
Take the general guide as 10% of your gross income. If God wants to add to it, He will let you know I am sure.
Malachi 3:6-9 6 “ For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. 7 Yet from the days of your fathers You have gone away from My ordinances And have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you,” Says the LORD of hosts. “ But you said, ‘ In what way shall we return?’ 8 “ Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, ‘ In what way have we robbed You?’ In tithes and offerings. 9 You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation.
Note here that God also makes the distinction between tithing and offering.
FYI.
God Bless
Brey
no dispute on the difference or the definitions between tithing and offering.
thanks for the info.
God bless -
RC Church is off? Now how did that happen? The God RC worship is not God? The Jesus RC believe is not Jesus? You have the cheek to ask me what inconsistancies.Originally posted by breytonhartge:don't think so. it is well accepted in mainstream christianity that the RC church are off in their teachings.
Please point out the inconsistencies. Easy to say, like so grand like that. But cannot name any. Please.
What did I say about other Christians? We all understand that we are having a discussion. If you even bother to read my posts and follow through, I have mentioned quite a few times that we each have revelation from God and that we are at differnt levels of growth. So we are to live as the Lord leads each of us. Or do you still have problems with english comprehension? Ck you always shoot off without reading anything properly.
No I do not think I have been brain washed, but if you think I am, then you must be brain washed too to think like you do. This is a subjective term for as much as it applies to me, it applies to you because you carry a certain view point do you not? So you must be brain washed by that view point.
You are not talking about one or two people who have their screw loose. You talking in terms of a billion people.
I don't know what kind of Christian you are but surely your group must be in the minority compared to the RC? That by definition makes you the abnormal? -
Why God wants your money is beyond me. Everything belongs to God. God needs your money. Incoherant.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Tithing is a tenth or 10%. Of what? Well everything that we own is purchased with God's money so if you want to get technical, 10% of everything should be tithed to God. -
its all good sgdh... thanks for the discussion.Originally posted by sgdiehard:hello,
no dispute on the difference or the definitions between tithing and offering.
thanks for the info.
God bless
God Bless to you too. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
when you have figured it out, let me know...
[b]
Why God wants your money is beyond me. b] -
Icemoon,Originally posted by Icemoon:Probably I wasn't clear enough.
There are two issues you have to deal with. The burden of proof is on your side remember?
1. Was Abraham tithing in the biblical sense?
There is no mention he was tithing in the biblical sense. All that was said was he paid 10%. We're not sure the nature of this 10%.
2. Were those "goods" (and people?) Abraham's property?
Tithing is always defined in terms of your own possession. You don't rob people and call it tithing. I remember the Bible wrote something about tithing your farm produce or something like that.
Abraham did say out loud those were not his property. Even though he was referring to the goods sans the 10%, it is clear the 10% is also included in the definition of the goods. Otherwise you need to establish the 10% were his property and the rest were not.
guess what, I was doing my readings today and I chanced upon Hebrew 7 (which talks about Abraham and Melchizedek) and found this
Heb 7:4 See how great he is! Abraham the patriarch gave him a tithe of the spoils. (in NIV this is translated as the plunders).
oh, yes, the word tithe was mentioned a few times when relating to this incident where Abraham gave a tenth to Melchizedek.
Peace and God Bless -
The literal translation will be "a tenth of the plunders". I think you shouldn't associate this with the tithing you do in church. I think it is dangerous to use the Abraham example to justify church tithing.Originally posted by vince69:Icemoon,
guess what, I was doing my readings today and I chanced upon Hebrew 7 (which talks about Abraham and Melchizedek) and found this
Heb 7:4 See how great he is! Abraham the patriarch gave him a tithe of the spoils. (in NIV this is translated as the plunders).
oh, yes, the word tithe was mentioned a few times when relating to this incident where Abraham gave a tenth to Melchizedek.
Peace and God Bless -
Icemoon,Originally posted by Icemoon:The literal translation will be "a tenth of the plunders". I think you shouldn't associate this with the tithing you do in church. I think it is dangerous to use the Abraham example to justify church tithing.
Just find it interesting in how Heb 7 describe that event between Abraham and Melchizedek, and that he actually uses the plunders.
anyway, still think titheing is a personal conviction... and I am not trying to use Abraham as an example.
cheers and God bless... -
Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity
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wah! whole day not on pc so many post liao??? U GUYS GOOD!!!
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Christ is my only redeemer
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When I was a kid, I used to think the word Christ as in Jesus Christ is Jesus' surname (like Eugene Tan - Tan being the surname).
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i thot Jesus had blue eyes and blond hair...then i realise he is a Jew
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ʫ ƪ 23 (Psalms 23) -
Jesus is God
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Ya, I used to think he's American...hahaha. Cuz my dad said Jesus is a Jew. I asked him where do Jews come from. He said from a very very far away country. And I asked "Is it as far as USA?" He said yes. So I concluded Jesus was American...hahahahOriginally posted by NT2:i thot Jesus had blue eyes and blond hair...then i realise he is a Jew