Who is, or are the antichrist??
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hey, stand out of tis too n dun hijack! keep to topic!Originally posted by LazerLordz:Can there be one thread in EH that does not have Iveco playing traffic cop?
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please leave this issue out of this thread. whatever issues you have with lau has nothing to do with EH.Originally posted by iveco:From what I see, it was Laurence82 who was behind everything. This guy is shameless and extreme care should be taken around him.
we shall let lau and brey settle their differences their own way. -
Blame those who are turning "red, green and soon it will be blue... " Please do not blame it on some poor imaginary fantasy creature and there will be less nonsense like the cartoon protests going on in this world.Originally posted by sgdiehard:The AntiChrist has done it again!! just the argument on the issue of AntiChrist has already turned Christians into discord. the argument turned red, green and soon it will be blue... -
u know, me know, he knows, she knows, its all settled pretty long time agoOriginally posted by Chin Eng:please leave this issue out of this thread. whatever issues you have with lau has nothing to do with EH.
we shall let lau and brey settle their differences their own way.
yeah, to the rest, let the topic carry on, whether you guys agree or disagree with the topic
if you guys dont like extra-topical issues being raised here, my advice is, let these people be
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if u noe the good doc, wldn't it be more helpful if u noe the fake doc oso?
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Luke 6:27 "But i say to you who hear:Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you"
6:28 "Bless those who curse you and pray for those who spitefully use you"
6:29 "To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either"
but dont come and slap me ok! hahaha -
to say that anybody or any religion is not likely to be the bad guy should not be offensive, so why should there be another mess?Originally posted by vince69:Its not nice to mention another religion (lest we fall back into the mess that is in the other thread).
Knowing the False/Anti-Christ, no matter how deep is not going to do anyone anygood
Having the True Christ will be saved.
If I know Christ, receieved Salvation throught his death/resurrection, I don't have to worry about this Anti/False-Christ
The Battle had already been won, why worry over a defeated foe.
For those who are sick, telling them about the false medicine man won't do any help, tell them where to find the true and good doctors will.. 
is Satan defeated?? then why the problem in the world?
Having the True Christ and be saved, and it is enough to live as a christian, why bother about all so many questions asked in this forum?
too many people are buying their own medicine (from JB ), too many people who don't claim to be doctor but insist that their prescription is the right medicine for you. medicine man do exist don't they? those who are sick will take anything that give them a hope of recovery.
Where is our True Christ? only in the Bible?? but false Christ appears to be everywhere? We learn from the Bible about the True Christ to differentiate the true from the false. Some of us learn more and some are new christians, those who know more can share with those who know less, true?? but if antichrist is not an issue, then bother about end times?? -
ok loh, since you want to talk about the false/anti-Christ so much, continue loh, me not interested, so me stop here, ok?Originally posted by sgdiehard:to say that anybody or any religion is not likely to be the bad guy should not be offensive, so why should there be another mess?
is Satan defeated?? then why the problem in the world?
Having the True Christ and be saved, and it is enough to live as a christian, why bother about all so many questions asked in this forum?
too many people are buying their own medicine (from JB ), too many people who don't claim to be doctor but insist that their prescription is the right medicine for you. medicine man do exist don't they? those who are sick will take anything that give them a hope of recovery.
Where is our True Christ? only in the Bible?? but false Christ appears to be everywhere? We learn from the Bible about the True Christ to differentiate the true from the false. Some of us learn more and some are new christians, those who know more can share with those who know less, true?? but if antichrist is not an issue, then bother about end times??
Vince.. bow out... -
I agree with you. At least people will know more & not be deceived easily.Originally posted by sgdiehard:to say that anybody or any religion is not likely to be the bad guy should not be offensive, so why should there be another mess?
is Satan defeated?? then why the problem in the world?
Having the True Christ and be saved, and it is enough to live as a christian, why bother about all so many questions asked in this forum?
too many people are buying their own medicine (from JB ), too many people who don't claim to be doctor but insist that their prescription is the right medicine for you. medicine man do exist don't they? those who are sick will take anything that give them a hope of recovery.
Where is our True Christ? only in the Bible?? but false Christ appears to be everywhere? We learn from the Bible about the True Christ to differentiate the true from the false. Some of us learn more and some are new christians, those who know more can share with those who know less, true?? but if antichrist is not an issue, then bother about end times?? -
I fully agree with vince69.... and I will tell you why....Originally posted by vince69:ok loh, since you want to talk about the false/anti-Christ so much, continue loh, me not interested, so me stop here, ok?
Vince.. bow out...
Outward, this is a very noble reason for pursuing this topic, but realistically, everything you need to know about the anti-Christ is written in the Bible.... however from the worldview standpoint, the characteristics and definition in the Bible about the anti-Christ can be tailored to suit any known individuals in the world.Originally posted by Repented John 2:I agree with you. At least people will know more & not be deceived easily.
So we must ask ourselves, what do we achieve from this undertaking? Merely finger point. Finger pointing at this and finger pointing at that. There is no way we can prove whether one analysis is correct or wrong. All it does AFTER the fingerpointing exercise is that we can cast defamatory and false statements about these individuals (that's not to say that some of these individuals are nice folks). So the net result of this undertaking is a whole bunch of speculations without a gram of truth. How then does this show on our testimony as Christians?
Should we refer to Revelations (and a bunch of other books) on the end times and the anti-Christ - of course YES.
But should we attempt to identify specifically who the anti-Christ is - most definitely NO. -
that is why we call the Bible the living words of God. Many things in the Bible are interpreted to suit diff ppl and diff situation. The important thing is the result of such interpretation. Does it bring joy and comfort, encouragement and edification? or does it bring dispute and quarrel?Originally posted by Chin Eng:Outward, this is a very noble reason for pursuing this topic, but realistically, everything you need to know about the anti-Christ is written in the Bible.... however from the worldview standpoint, the characteristics and definition in the Bible about the anti-Christ can be tailored to suit any known individuals in the world.
When a new Christian ask about antichrist, I don't think we should tell him "all you need to know is in the Bible, go read it..."
In any discussion, those who do finger-pointing are childish, making defamatory assertion are ill mannered, and casting FALSE statement shows their poor credibility! It has nothing to do with the topic. Why is a discussion on antichrist likely to lead to these???Originally posted by Chin Eng:So we must ask ourselves, what do we achieve from this undertaking? Merely finger point. Finger pointing at this and finger pointing at that. There is no way we can prove whether one analysis is correct or wrong. All it does AFTER the finger pointing exercise is that we can cast defamatory and false statements about these individuals (that's not to say that some of these individuals are nice folks). So the net result of this undertaking is a whole bunch of speculations without a gram of truth. How then does this show on our testimony as Christians?
And if any Christian feels very strong about their position with regards to any issue or Biblical interpretation, I expect them to explain, or in a more Christian term "share", and if it is a subject about faith, there must be the respect that others may not believe or may not feel as strong. This is fundamental in participating in any religious discussion, is it not?
Anybody giving bunch of speculations without a gram of truth shows poorly of himself, especially Christian, on Christian issue. The fact is that we can't stop these people in a public forum. But I think it is ok if they want to identify themselves.
It appears that many non Christians here know more about the Bible than some new Christians, and it is up to some other Christians to share so that all Christians here, including some non Christian (those who donÂ’t come here to argue or discredit our religion), can learn more in details about our faith.
Nobody can force anybody to say anything. Those who have nothing to say donÂ’t have to say. If anybody who have some knowledge about the issue and think can help other fellow Christian, donÂ’t keep quiet just because you are afraid that some stupid idiot would come and turn this into another saga. -
When I did say that that we should just go and tell a non-Christian to read all about it in the Bible. I said if we wish to discuss the anti-Christ we should read it from the Bible and not some speculations from some websites who may not be analyzing stuff correctly.Originally posted by sgdiehard:that is why we call the Bible the living words of God. Many things in the Bible are interpreted to suit diff ppl and diff situation. The important thing is the result of such interpretation. Does it bring joy and comfort, encouragement and edification? or does it bring dispute and quarrel?
When a new Christian ask about antichrist, I don't think we should tell him "all you need to know is in the Bible, go read it..."
As I'd said before, go to your browser and type in "who is the anti-christ" and you will find a whole gamut of personalities. Sure we can discuss all these and find the most like candidate, then what? Does that bring joy, comfort, encouragement and edication? or does it bring dispute and quarrel.... you decide.
I am sorry, but I totally disagree with your statement: Many things in the Bible are interpreted to suit diff ppl and diff situation. The important thing is the result of such interpretation. This statement is wrong at best, and heretic at worst. The issue of interpretation is NOT different meaning, but different context of how any verses were used basing on the translation of the original language and understanding of the cultural context at the point of writing. If the Bible is to be taken to suit different people and different situation, then the Bible is NOT the word of God, because chaos will rule.
See above.Originally posted by sgdiehard:In any discussion, those who do finger-pointing are childish, making defamatory assertion are ill mannered, and casting FALSE statement shows their poor credibility! It has nothing to do with the topic. Why is a discussion on antichrist likely to lead to these???
You think anyone here is capable of a serious and edifying discussion on eschatology? A topic that stems even the best of Bible scholars?Originally posted by sgdiehard:And if any Christian feels very strong about their position with regards to any issue or Biblical interpretation, I expect them to explain, or in a more Christian term "share", and if it is a subject about faith, there must be the respect that others may not believe or may not feel as strong. This is fundamental in participating in any religious discussion, is it not?
Sure we can't stop them, but can we stop ourselves lest others stumble.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Anybody giving bunch of speculations without a gram of truth shows poorly of himself, especially Christian, on Christian issue. The fact is that we can't stop these people in a public forum. But I think it is ok if they want to identify themselves.
Don't get me wrong, I am not opposing to the discussion of our faith. I am saying that in everything we talk about, especially the sensitive areas of our faith, do not allow it to become idle speculations.Originally posted by sgdiehard:It appears that many non Christians here know more about the Bible than some new Christians, and it is up to some other Christians to share so that all Christians here, including some non Christian (those who donÂ’t come here to argue or discredit our religion), can learn more in details about our faith.
Nobody can force anybody to say anything. Those who have nothing to say donÂ’t have to say. If anybody who have some knowledge about the issue and think can help other fellow Christian, donÂ’t keep quiet just because you are afraid that some stupid idiot would come and turn this into another saga.
By the way, do you know how to use the "quote" function? I have so much problem seeving through your note to see why were my words and which were yours.... -
Surely we need to read about it in the Bible. We can also read from the websites or from books, but the figures and facts and even the credentials of the authors of these articles or books need verification and people should bring up an book or article for discussion after they had read, digested and found it worthwhile. Quoting a book, or an article from website is the same as voicing our own opinion, we need to substantiate it. I think I have said enough about how responsible ppl should be when posting on any forum.Originally posted by Chin Eng:When I did say that that we should just go and tell a non-Christian to read all about it in the Bible. I said if we wish to discuss the anti-Christ we should read it from the Bible and not some speculations from some websites who may not be analyzing stuff correctly.
As I'd said before, go to your browser and type in "who is the anti-christ" and you will find a whole gamut of personalities. Sure we can discuss all these and find the most like candidate, then what? Does that bring joy, comfort, encouragement and edication? or does it bring dispute and quarrel.... you decide. ....
The main point is: are we assuming that antichrist is a person, so there are many candidates to choose from? or is antichrist just an icon of worship for all those who are against Christianity, or it is a general description of all those who are not for Christ!!
By definition quoted from the Bible by Vince69 “By Definition in the Bible, this so called Antichrist is someone who claimed to be Christ but actually is not, hence a False Christ”, then who claimed to be Christ? or do we expect antichrist to come from among the christians?
One thing we know about this antichrist, as Paul said in 2 Thess. “The coming of the lawless one will be……… displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives…” so what counterfeit miracles, signs, wonders and deceiving evil are we seeing right now?
We are being warned against the deceiving acts of the antichrist during end times, and we are calling for people to repent and accept salvation because end time is here, I think among Christian, we should have some idea about what we should be guarding against.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I am sorry, but I totally disagree with your statement: Many things in the Bible are interpreted to suit diff ppl and diff situation. The important thing is the result of such interpretation. This statement is wrong at best, and heretic at worst. The issue of interpretation is NOT different meaning, but different context of how any verses were used basing on the translation of the original language and understanding of the cultural context at the point of writing. If the Bible is to be taken to suit different people and different situation, then the Bible is NOT the word of God, because chaos will rule. ....
may be my expression was wrong. Certainly I did not mean interpreting the Bible to please the people, or twisting the meaning to suit the situation. No specific example here so will not proceed.
I donÂ’t know if anyone is capable, but I cannot assume there is none, and hope that may be some of you here have read into this subject and may have something to share. There were many different opinions here until ........Originally posted by Chin Eng:You think anyone here is capable of a serious and edifying discussion on eschatology? A topic that stems even the best of Bible scholars? ....
We try our best in giving our opinion and hope that others could benefit. We should have confidence in what we write and I am sure even those who wrote defamatory remarks knew very well that what they wrote was defamatory.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Sure we can't stop them, but can we stop ourselves lest others stumble.
We should only stop if we are not sure.
Sorry, I was not replying to you on point by point basis, just responding generally. Hope this time it is better.Originally posted by Chin Eng:By the way, do you know how to use the "quote" function? I have so much problem seeving through your note to see why were my words and which were yours.... -
Definitely better....Originally posted by sgdiehard:Sorry, I was not replying to you on point by point basis, just responding generally. Hope this time it is better.
... and point taken. -
Can the Christian white anglicans co-exist peacefully with other religions and races, without economically exploiting them, without colonializing them, without bombing them all over the world, without trying to convert them to Christianity with Missionaries, without forcing their moral values, standards and cultures on the rest of the world?
Not all Christians are Anglicans and Caucasian. And not all Anglicans and Caucasian are Christians.
But when you look at our world as it is today, it has been shaped mainly by White Anglican Christians (and the Spanish-Portuguese Roman Catholics). Colonialism, Slavery, Poverty, Explotation of the Resources of those Countries, World Wars.
Wherever the White Christians have landed, they took without asking. The land from the Native Americans for example.
Here is a good article about the correlation or causation between Christianity and Poverty:
The CIA Fact Book statistics on poverty in developing nations is indeed an interesting description. Sure enough, when we look at the numbers, we can clearly see a definite correlation between the spread of Christianity and rates of poverty in nations. An observed correlation, however, merely describes a population or event. Correlation alone does not prove a cause and effect relationship between two events or variables. The criteria of causation include three conditions, one of which is correlation. In other words, correlation only suggests a possibility of causation.
read further: http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1137122831 -
Sorry, wrong thread!! please stick to the topic of discussion. thank you.Originally posted by neutral_onliner:Can the Christian white anglicans co-exist peacefully with other religions and races, without economically exploiting them, without colonializing them, without bombing them all over the world, without trying to convert them to Christianity with Missionaries, without forcing their moral values, standards and cultures on the rest of the world?
Not all Christians are Anglicans and Caucasian. And not all Anglicans and Caucasian are Christians.
But when you look at our world as it is today, it has been shaped mainly by White Anglican Christians (and the Spanish-Portuguese Roman Catholics). Colonialism, Slavery, Poverty, Explotation of the Resources of those Countries, World Wars.
Wherever the White Christians have landed, they took without asking. The land from the Native Americans for example.
Here is a good article about the correlation or causation between Christianity and Poverty:
The CIA Fact Book statistics on poverty in developing nations is indeed an interesting description. Sure enough, when we look at the numbers, we can clearly see a definite correlation between the spread of Christianity and rates of poverty in nations. An observed correlation, however, merely describes a population or event. Correlation alone does not prove a cause and effect relationship between two events or variables. The criteria of causation include three conditions, one of which is correlation. In other words, correlation only suggests a possibility of causation.
read further: http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1137122831 -
Why God allow antichrist? Why God allow people to suffer under the antichrist? I dont understand. These are the elite people governing the world. Why God allow these people to be born in the first place? Why God allow the rich poor divide? Another person posted here abt poverty & Christianity. Abt white supremacy. Yes, why God only favour the whites & not the browns, blacks, yellows etc? It seems like God only favours the powerful & rich. No wonder the person called antichrist has grandiose illusions of wealth & power as if they are from God! So isn't God the problem here?
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To trace the origin and development of the God-idea, one must go back to the time when civilization was still in its infancy and modern science was still unknown. Primitive people, out of fear of and admiration towards natural phenomena, had believed in different spirits and gods. They used their belief in spirit and gods to form religions of their own. According to their respective circumstances and understanding capacity different people worshipped different gods and founded different faiths.Originally posted by ICanOnlyHope:Why God allow antichrist? Why God allow people to suffer under the antichrist? I dont understand. These are the elite people governing the world. Why God allow these people to be born in the first place? Why God allow the rich poor divide? Another person posted here abt poverty & Christianity. Abt white supremacy. Yes, why God only favour the whites & not the browns, blacks, yellows etc? It seems like God only favours the powerful & rich. No wonder the person called antichrist has grandiose illusions of wealth & power as if they are from God! So isn't God the problem here?
At the beginning of the God-idea, people worshipped many gods--gods of trees, streams, lightning, storm, winds, the sun and all other terrestrial phenomena. These gods were related to each and every act of nature. Then gradually man began to attribute to these gods, sex and form as well as the physical and mental characteristics of human beings. Human attributes were given to the gods: love, hate, jealousy, fear, pride, envy and other emotions found among human beings. From all these gods, there slowly grew a realization that the phenomena of the universe were not many but were One. This understanding gave rise to the monotheistic god of recent ages.
In the process of development, the God-idea went through a variety of changing social and intellectual climates. It was regarded by different men in different ways. Some idealized god as the King of Heaven and Earth; they had a conception of god as a person. Others thought of god as an abstract principle. Some raised the ideal of Supreme deity to the highest heaven, while others brought it down to the lowest depths of the earth. Some pictured god in a paradise, while others made an idol and worshipped it. Some want so far as to say that there is no salvation without god?no matter how much good you do, you will not receive the fruits of your actions unless you act out of a faith in god. The Atheists said, 'No' and went on to affirm that god did not really exist at all. The Skeptics or Agnostics said, 'We do not or we cannot know.' The Positivists say that the God-idea was a meaningless problem since the idea of the term god 'was not clear'. Thus there grew a variety of ideas and beliefs and names for the God-idea: pantheism, idolatry, belief in a formless god, and belief in many gods and goddesses.
Even the monotheistic god of recent times has gone through a variety of changes as it passed through different nations and people. -
you made a lot of assumptions here about antichrist. How do you know that the antichrist are the elite people? or a white, but not browns, blacks or yellows, and has grandiose illusions of wealth??Originally posted by ICanOnlyHope:Why God allow antichrist? Why God allow people to suffer under the antichrist? I dont understand. These are the elite people governing the world. Why God allow these people to be born in the first place? Why God allow the rich poor divide? Another person posted here abt poverty & Christianity. Abt white supremacy. Yes, why God only favour the whites & not the browns, blacks, yellows etc? It seems like God only favours the powerful & rich. No wonder the person called antichrist has grandiose illusions of wealth & power as if they are from God! So isn't God the problem here?
You appear to be blaming God for everything, what is your problem? -
If you know that God is for you, why bother about those who are against you for they have no foot hole in your life. Focus on Christ instead of Anti-Christ.
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it surely is not about for me or against me.Originally posted by photo_seeker:If you know that God is for you, why bother about those who are against you for they have no foot hole in your life. Focus on Christ instead of Anti-Christ.
I know who Christ is, I know what He does in my life. I am also very clear about the devil and I know what the devil and satan does. It is when the devil disguises himself as christ I am concerned. When I see many who act in the name of Christ but causing disputes in churches, among Christians, I am worried.
Jesus told us to be alert, why Christians here are telling me not to be bordered?? -
....to put it simply.... what has this thread achieved since it started?Originally posted by sgdiehard:Jesus told us to be alert, why Christians here are telling me not to be bordered??
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the understanding that many christians here are avoiding the issue.Originally posted by Chin Eng:....to put it simply.... what has this thread achieved since it started?
in comparison, there are more interests in issues like, 'can Christian buy Toto?', "can Christians have pre-marital sex".
I thought this is a forum for discussion among Christians, but when it comes to issues like 'second coming', 'predestination', christians either get involved in argument with non christians or among themselves, red flags are raised and christians dive for cover.
It is true that some are theological questions, and we don't need answers to these question to go to heaven, but, we can share if we know, even a little, if we don't know, no harm saying we don't know. -
i think the non christians also have to dive for cover too, wel, for various reasonsOriginally posted by sgdiehard:I thought this is a forum for discussion among Christians, but when it comes to issues like 'second coming', 'predestination', christians either get involved in argument with non christians or among themselves, red flags are raised and christians dive for cover. -
that's just one way of putting it... another way is that Christians may not be avoiding the issue insomuch that we have the understanding that there is so much we don't know about this subject, and when a blind man leads another blind man... guess what?Originally posted by sgdiehard:the understanding that many christians here are avoiding the issue.
this issues are really practical Christian living, and many of us are probably experience in these areas because we are either part of such sins or know people who are ensnared, therefore it makes it easy to discuss.Originally posted by sgdiehard:in comparison, there are more interests in issues like, 'can Christian buy Toto?', "can Christians have pre-marital sex".
Practically impossible to enforce, these discussions are open to all and not limited to Christians - you might want to check out Agora at Antioch.com http://www.antioch.com.sg/agora/. That is a purely Christian forum, and even there Christians argue about the difference in opinions in doctrine and theology. One point to note is that I don't believe the Christians here are avoiding issues like second coming or predestination. Couldn't you read that there is a discussion on rapture at the moment? Maybe you might want to accept the fact that "anti-Christ" may not be a popular topic.Originally posted by sgdiehard:I thought this is a forum for discussion among Christians, but when it comes to issues like 'second coming', 'predestination', christians either get involved in argument with non christians or among themselves, red flags are raised and christians dive for cover.
I admit.... I don't know who the anti-Christ is. Do you?Originally posted by sgdiehard:It is true that some are theological questions, and we don't need answers to these question to go to heaven, but, we can share if we know, even a little, if we don't know, no harm saying we don't know.
My point is: out of these 2 pages so far, plus other similar threads, what knowledge have we gleaned from it, or specifically, what knowledge have you share? Please take a step back and see what constructive discussion had gone one, remove all the flames and arguments......