The true meaning of Valentine's Day!
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oopsOriginally posted by Ironside:Yes.
Question: Can Christians in heaven suddenly became imbued with the godly attribute of omniscience [which only God alone can possess] or omnipresence to hear the prayers down here on earth? -
Seems like we are now into the subject regarding prayers, and since we were on this, lets have a look at Jesus' response to this subject.
here in Luke, the writer wrote Him as saying, when you pray, say this, but in Matthew, it is as, This then is how you should pray.
The common part of these is that the address is to the God the Heavenly Father directly. While some may argue that this previledge is accorded only to Jesus, if this is so, why then Jesus himself says, "This, then is how you should pray."?
Jesus' Teaching on Prayer
Luke 11:1-13 (NIV)
One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples."
He said to them, "When you pray, say:
" 'Father,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.' "
Then he said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and he goes to him at midnight and says, 'Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, because a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have nothing to set before him.'
"Then the one inside answers, 'Don't bother me. The door is already locked, and my children are with me in bed. I can't get up and give you anything.' I tell you, though he will not get up and give him the bread because he is his friend, yet because of the man's boldness he will get up and give him as much as he needs.
"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
Matt 6:7-15 (NIV)
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.' For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. -
They do not need to be omniscient to hear our prayers. Only God is omniscient.Originally posted by Ironside:Yes.
Question: Can Christians in heaven suddenly became imbued with the godly attribute of omniscience [which only God alone can possess] or omnipresence to hear the prayers down here on earth?
Since it is clear that the dead saints do not and certainly cannot possess attributes which God can only possess-omniscience and omnipresence-
why waste time praying to them? After all they might be busy attending to other prayers from other parts of the world [if indeed they can hear prayers].
why not go directly to God whose phones can never go busy?
P.S. what a sad plight for saint Peter and saint Paul, after all the hardships they went through here on earth.........they can still hear the bad news about what's happening here.
"Saint Paul......please tell God to hasten the reconstruction of the church named after you...........since it got burned down last year by a deranged man.............you got terribly burned from the neck up"
"Saint paul please tell God to let the thief of the crown of your statue be caught and be brought to justice...yeah......he stole your crown."
"Saint Peter........your great, great, great, great, great, great great, grandson did not believe in the gospel you taught and preached........he committed suicide...
..........and they thought that heaven was a place of bliss and joy..........where tears are no more.........
Heaven is not within the constraints of time. Do not forget that the Kingdom is of another world. The saints are not constrained by time. That's why they can hear us. The same applies for angels. They are not God, but they know what's happening on earth at any one time. -
Where in the bible does it say that the saints can hear us? How do you then justify praying to the saints in the light of all the bible has to say about praying.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:They do not need to be omniscient to hear our prayers. Only God is omniscient.
Heaven is not within the constraints of time. Do not forget that the Kingdom is of another world. The saints are not constrained by time. That's why they can hear us. The same applies for angels. They are not God, but they know what's happening on earth at any one time.
In Luke 11, when Jesus taught the disciples how to pray, He said when you pray, Say Our Father in Heaven... Jesus did not say dear saints in heaven...
Acts 12:5
[ Peter Freed from Prison ] Peter was therefore kept in prison, but constant prayer was offered to God for him by the church.
Acts 16:25
[ The Philippian Jailer Saved ] But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them.
Romans 15:30
Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in prayers to God for me,
2 Corinthians 13:7
[ Paul Prefers Gentleness ] Now I pray to God that you do no evil, not that we should appear approved, but that you should do what is honorable, though we may seem disqualified.
From here we see that the believers did not pray to angels or to saints, but to God directly.
Philippians 4:6
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
Philippians 4:6 speaks very clearly, it says by prayer and supplicaton, with thanksgiving, let our requests be made known TO GOD, not to the saints or to angels, but TO GOD.
And how then can you say it is right to pray to the saints when it is clearly stated in 1 Timothy which I have posted before and post again:
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
We have one God and one Mediator between God and men, JESUS. Does it say the saints? NO. It says Jesus is our mediator. -
The fact that Jesus is the mediator between God and Man does not negate the fact that we can go to the Saints.
If the saints are not supposed to hear us, then why was Abraham able to hear the rich man crying from hell? (Luke 16:19-31)
"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Psalm 103:20-21)
We know that the angels serve God, but we also know that they help God's people. Throughout scripture we have seen numerous instances of this.
[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4)
And can angels not do as the above passage suggest? Consider that the term 'saints' can include those on heaven and on earth.
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).
And if there are angels watching over us constantly, how is it possible that they cannot hear us? -
note Abraham and the rich man were both dead, this passage does not talk about the living praying to the dead, but the dead talking to the dead.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:The fact that Jesus is the mediator between God and Man does not negate the fact that we can go to the Saints.
If the saints are not supposed to hear us, then why was Abraham able to hear the rich man crying from hell? (Luke 16:19-31)
"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Psalm 103:20-21)
We know that the angels serve God, but we also know that they help God's people. Throughout scripture we have seen numerous instances of this.
[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4)
And can angels not do as the above passage suggest? Consider that the term 'saints' can include those on heaven and on earth.
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).
And if there are angels watching over us constantly, how is it possible that they cannot hear us?
None of the passages that you have posted indicate that we are to pray to angels. Even the passage from Revelation, it says if you read it carefully that the angel was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints, the angel was just given incense to mingle with the prayers, the verse did not say that the angel received our prayers. The prayers were already on the altar before the throne of God. Also who are the saints? WE ARE THE SAINTS, the prayers are prayers of the living saints, not the dead, not saints as in "St. Paul etc", but saints as in the living believers.
How does "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Psalm 103:20-21) have anything to do with praying to the saints and angels? Please read the verse carefully, it talks about harkening to the voice of HIS WORD and doing HIS WORD. Are you harkening to the voice of HIS WORD are you doing HIS WORD? -
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:
Then why does it say that we have only ONE mediator. It did not say that the dead saints were our mediator. It says that our mediator is JESUS who is alive today and not sleeping.
[b]The fact that Jesus is the mediator between God and Man does not negate the fact that we can go to the Saints.
b]
By going to the dead saints or to angels, you are going to another mediator. -
Agreed Agreed! Even Jesus met up with Moses & Elijah on the mountain.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:The fact that Jesus is the mediator between God and Man does not negate the fact that we can go to the Saints.
If the saints are not supposed to hear us, then why was Abraham able to hear the rich man crying from hell? (Luke 16:19-31)
"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Psalm 103:20-21)
We know that the angels serve God, but we also know that they help God's people. Throughout scripture we have seen numerous instances of this.
[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4)
And can angels not do as the above passage suggest? Consider that the term 'saints' can include those on heaven and on earth.
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).
And if there are angels watching over us constantly, how is it possible that they cannot hear us? -
Wat traitor?Originally posted by Icemoon:you traitor!
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HEh.....you seem to always in agreement, none of your own thoughts?Originally posted by babyys:Agreed Agreed! Even Jesus met up with Moses & Elijah on the mountain.
Cheers -
It is said to see our seperated brothers getting drifted further away from the original church.
Today I spoke with two Protestants. One has never heard of the Apostles Creed and insisted that that was just a Catholic thing. The other said, she used to see it printed on the hymnal book, just for people to read.
Don't Christians profess their faith during the sunday worship anymore?
I know Catholics and Anglicans still do. They still do what has been practised for nearly 20 centuries.
But have the others for whatever reason decided to do away with the Apostles Creed? Or have they moved so far away from the original church that they have long forgotten it? -
The Apostles' Creed, if I am not wrong, its goes something like this
I think this is one of the most basic of christian teaching, and I personally feels it like a summary of the Gospel.
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.
Amen.
*note: the catholic church normally refers to the universal Church of Christ, not the Roman Catholic Church.
Then, not teaching the Apostles' creed does not means not teaching the fundamentals, think by teaching the Gospel, the creed is being taught as well.
afterall, its about His birth, His Lives, His Death, His resurrection, His return.
Its all about Christ. -
If you want to talk about moving away from the original church, please go back to the bible and read the whole of the NT. Where did Jesus or any of the apostles preach about the apostle's creed. There was never even a Catholic Church ever mentioned. The original church was whereever you found believers. The apostle's creed was developed between the second to ninth century. I believe the apostles creed except the point about the holy catholic church... heresy. The original church was not even catholic, it was started by the romans. The original church was jewish. So how far has the catholic church drifted away from the TRUE church of God?Originally posted by Honeybunz:It is said to see our seperated brothers getting drifted further away from the original church.
Today I spoke with two Protestants. One has never heard of the Apostles Creed and insisted that that was just a Catholic thing. The other said, she used to see it printed on the hymnal book, just for people to read.
Don't Christians profess their faith during the sunday worship anymore?
I know Catholics and Anglicans still do. They still do what has been practised for nearly 20 centuries.
But have the others for whatever reason decided to do away with the Apostles Creed? Or have they moved so far away from the original church that they have long forgotten it? -
Brey,Originally posted by breytonhartge:If you want to talk about moving away from the original church, please go back to the bible and read the whole of the NT. Where did Jesus or any of the apostles preach about the apostle's creed. There was never even a Catholic Church ever mentioned. The original church was whereever you found believers. The apostle's creed was developed between the second to ninth century. I believe the apostles creed except the point about the holy catholic church... heresy. The original church was not even catholic, it was started by the romans. The original church was jewish. So how far has the catholic church drifted away from the TRUE church of God?
I have this question before, until I did some read up on this and realised that the "catholic church" here in the apostles' creed actually means 'universal church' and not the Roman Catholic Church. meaning, its actually refering to the Church of Christ (as a whole), ie. the Body of Christ. -
care to share where you found this information? I still have my doubts. Who wrote it and who did the research?Originally posted by vince69:Brey,
I have this question before, until I did some read up on this and realised that the "catholic church" here in the apostles' creed actually means 'universal church' and not the Roman Catholic Church. meaning, its actually refering to the Church of Christ (as a whole), ie. the Body of Christ.
Thanks
Brey -
According to some anicent theory, its composed by the 12 aposatles.Originally posted by breytonhartge:care to share where you found this information? I still have my doubts. Who wrote it and who did the research?
Thanks
Brey
The full form of the creeds appears somewhere around ad700.
the word 'catholic' kathlolikos in Greek has the denatation of universal, as when the term first appears in the Aposatles' Creed.
My main source of information? Its mainly from
"Evangelical Dictionary of Theology" edited by Walter A. Elwell. -
Thanks for sharing vince. I still choose not to believe the part about the catholic church. Reading form the bible, there never was one or anything mentioned about it, I prefer to believe the word of God. Cheers.
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BreyOriginally posted by breytonhartge:Thanks for sharing vince. I still choose not to believe the part about the catholic church. Reading form the bible, there never was one or anything mentioned about it, I prefer to believe the word of God. Cheers.
Its ok, its more on a personal conviction/interpretation level.
cheers -
Most Protestants do not have a problem with it. Even the Hymn of Praise book (used by traditional Christians) has the Apostle Creed.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Thanks for sharing vince. I still choose not to believe the part about the catholic church. Reading form the bible, there never was one or anything mentioned about it, I prefer to believe the word of God. Cheers.
It is funny. You share the RC's interpretation of it .. that's why you choose not to believe it. -
Like Brey said .. the original church is the Jewish church. Headed by the apostle James in Jerusalem. I still think Peter buay gan . that's why he couldn't take the top seat in either Alexandra, Antioch or Jerusalem.Originally posted by Honeybunz:It is said to see our seperated brothers getting drifted further away from the original church.
Today I spoke with two Protestants. One has never heard of the Apostles Creed and insisted that that was just a Catholic thing. The other said, she used to see it printed on the hymnal book, just for people to read.
Don't Christians profess their faith during the sunday worship anymore?
I know Catholics and Anglicans still do. They still do what has been practised for nearly 20 centuries.
But have the others for whatever reason decided to do away with the Apostles Creed? Or have they moved so far away from the original church that they have long forgotten it?
It is a shame Protestants not heard f the Apostles Creed. I bet they not know the Nicene Creed also. But then professing their faith is no different from paying lip service 'cos I'm not sure whether those who recite it know the meaning. -
Care to share on how you come to the conclusion/idea reagrding the early Church in Jerusalem, Jame and Peter?Originally posted by Icemoon:Like Brey said .. the original church is the Jewish church. Headed by the apostle James in Jerusalem. I still think Peter buay gan . that's why he couldn't take the top seat in either Alexandra, Antioch or Jerusalem.
It is a shame Protestants not heard f the Apostles Creed. I bet they not know the Nicene Creed also. But then professing their faith is no different from paying lip service 'cos I'm not sure whether those who recite it know the meaning.
As far as I know (ref Acts), the early church was ran by a 'council' formed the apostles, and both James and Peter sat in the council. -
You are right. They were ran by this council, but why was James the head of the church in Jerusalem and not Peter? You mean James is CEO and Peter the Director?Originally posted by vince69:Care to share on how you come to the conclusion/idea reagrding the early Church in Jerusalem, Jame and Peter?
As far as I know (ref Acts), the early church was ran by a 'council' formed the apostles, and both James and Peter sat in the council.
This council buay gan. 'cos Paul, who is not in the council, can win them in theological arguments. Paul even chided Peter before, remember? Which RC dares to chide their Pope?
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I think Peter scared of James.
Galatians 2:11-13
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood self-condemned; for until certain people came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But after they came, he drew back and kept himself separate for fear of the circumcision faction. And the other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. -
Oh boy.........sorry this will be loong. There are things i would like to put forward to you to refute your claims about praying for the dead. But sometimes i make it short because........i have difficulty in writing in English.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Where are the saints?
They are in heaven and they are not dead! They have eternal life with God!
The so-called praying to inanimate objects is actually, not.
It is from the Litany of Loretto.
http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/Litanies/Loreto.htm
But do not worry....i will make it as concise as possible. The reason i am writing this also is for the reason that other fellow Christians who are new in the faith might be instructed not to do these stuff.
Spiritually speaking they are not dead. the Lord promised eternal life to those who will trust in HIm alone for salvation. But it doesn't mean that they will not die physically.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
I wonder what would our friend SM would do here if he were there in Thessalonica listening to the letter of Paul as it is being read to them:
1Th 4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."
"NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Paul. They are not dead. They have eternal life!!!!!!!!!"
Would you say that to Paul my friend?
I hope not because what Paul has said here are the words of the Lord Himself.
Move up just one verse before this to verse 15, Paul claims this to be the word of the Lord:
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Do you believe Paul my friend that this very words he wrote were the utterance of the Lord to him? Sure you do.
God is speaking through Paul: "...........and the dead in Christ will rise first."
What does the Lord call those saints whose hearts have stopped beating?
DEAD IN CHRIST.
Will we see you standing up in that congregation saying: "NO. The saints are not dead Lord.They have etenal life."
And if you object that these are not saints. That these are just ordinary Christians:
What about this verse:
" 1Co 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours"
The body of Christ, the Church, are those who are santified in Chist Jesus.
And what does Paul say about those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus? They are called saints. You see that phrase there "CALLED TO BE SAINTS".
Actually there should be no 'TO BE' there.
one of the reasons why i prefer the NKJV over NIV is because the NKJV italicized words that are not in the original Greek Bible. Italicized words in the NKJV, KJV or NASB tell you that these are not in the original and therefore not inspired. They are just supplied there by the translators.
The literal rendering of 1 Corinthians 1:2 is:
1Co 1:2 "To the church of God which is at Corinth to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, CALLED SAINTS, of God which is at Corinth, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours..."
Sanctified people are saints. That's the principle we are trying to get here.
Sanctified means set apart or separated people. They are separated from the world to God. They are not anymore of the world but they are IN CHRIST whether they live or die.
All who are IN CHRIST are sanctified people. And the Bible calls those who are sanctified as saints.
So when Paul says: "the dead in Christ will rise first" he means those saints who have physically died
What does the Bible say of those who have physically died, saints or not? THEY KNOW NOTHING OF THIS WORLD. OF WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE.
I think i shall stop here...........i will however continue with this next time. i have other things to do. Thanks.
Ec 9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
De 18:10 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
11 "or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
P.S. these are not my words. These are from the Bible. Look and read for yourself. They are plain and easy to understand. God made it plain. He is an excellent communicator.
take them at face value.
Granting without conceeding that we are allowed to communicate to the saints and you obeyed those words above. You did not pray to the saints because of those verses.
By the time you will face judgment you will still have an excuse to God. You can say: "God i did not call upon the saints because Your Word prohibited me. And i understood it at face value. I believed the verses in the Bible that Brey quotetd that Christ alone is our Mediator.............SORRY IF I FOUND CHRIST ENOUGH." -
I beg to differ. We recite the Apostles Creed during each communion... sometimes Nicene Creed.Originally posted by Icemoon:It is a shame Protestants not heard f the Apostles Creed. I bet they not know the Nicene Creed also. But then professing their faith is no different from paying lip service 'cos I'm not sure whether those who recite it know the meaning.
Of course, that is no guarantee whether those reciting it understand the meaning or not lah...