The true meaning of Valentine's Day!
-
what's new?Originally posted by Chin Eng:wah! over night the drift is even greater....
You first day here meh?
-
*looks for Scholar Ironside*Originally posted by Honeybunz:agree. This was brought up before. Somehow no Protestant can answer whether Luther and Calvin were right or wrong. They just went on and on quoting verses from the bible, trying to sound right.
-
errr....i Protestant le.Originally posted by Honeybunz:agree. This was brought up before. Somehow no Protestant can answer whether Luther and Calvin were right or wrong. They just went on and on quoting verses from the bible, trying to sound right.
About Luther and Calvin giving reverence to the Mother...
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=154829 -
I was Protestant before alsoOriginally posted by babyys:errr....i Protestant le.
-
you traitor!Originally posted by babyys:errr....i Protestant le. -
Facts,Originally posted by babyys:On wat grounds have u to say their doctrine is sala? r we to say that the theologians from past centuries have all been learning the wrong thing?
Even Luther and John Calvin who were the forefathers to protestanism gave reverence to the Holy Mother. So u mean to say they were also doing the wrong stuff?
Mary as she is know in the Bible (not tradition),
1) She is acknowledge as the Mother of Jesus (when He walks on Earth in Human form).
2) She is also said to be blessed, in fact as most blessed among woman.
What I cannot find in the Bible is (at least not in my Bible)
that she is known as Holy Mother.
can you point to me where this is from? or is this just tradition?
traditional practice does not equate doctinal truth.
Thanks -
Originally posted by babyys:
double posts
[b]"Lord, can Mary and the saints who have departed hear me when i pray"?
".................the dead know nothing." was the reply.
How would u know God's reply? We're not him so don't presume.
There is also a major difference in Praying TO them and asking them to pray FOR us. From the start i never said to pray to the saints or Mary for that matter. That would then be idolatary.
Yes, so you said the saints & Mary is dead! then wat's eternity in Heaven for? r u saying once we r dead we will all go into "sleep-mode" forever?
[/b] -
Originally posted by babyys:
1) Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 says that the dead know nothing. And thatÂ’s GodÂ’s Word. The verse doesnÂ’t mean that they have been annihilated or has ceased to exist forever. That is clear in the concluding portion of the book [12:14], they will yet have to face judgment. It is also clear in other portions of GODÂ’S WORD that the departed ones does not soul-sleep or cease to exist. The soul of the departed is conscious either in Hades or heaven.
[b]"Lord, can Mary and the saints who have departed hear me when i pray"?
".................the dead know nothing." was the reply.
How would u know God's reply? We're not him so don't presume.
There is also a major difference in Praying TO them and asking them to pray FOR us. From the start i never said to pray to the saints or Mary for that matter. That would then be idolatary.
Yes, so you said the saints & Mary is dead! then wat's eternity in Heaven for? r u saying once we r dead we will all go into "sleep-mode" forever?
[/b]
[Of course, no one is to build his theology based solely on the book of Ecclesiastes since it is a book of horinzontal outlook, a book looking primarily from an "under the sun" perspective, but portions of other Scriptures tell us which is doctrinal in this book or not]
2) What this portion of GODÂ’S WORD is telling us however is that the departed ones have no knowledge of whatÂ’s happening here on earth. They canÂ’t hear your prayers and etc. Death disrupts their interaction with our world.
In advance I woud like to posit the case of Samuel appearing to Saul, in case someone will use this event in the Bible to justify calling up the dead and that they can hear us here:
others advance Samuel's apparation to Saul to refute that the dead cannot hear what's taking place here. But that portion is highly debatable as to whether it was really Samuel who appeared to Saul during that instance or a demonic spirit seeking to decieve Saul. Evidence though strongly indicate that it was a demonic spirit who appeared to Saul and not Samuel.
1 Chronicles helps us interpret that episode of "Samuel's" apparition to Saul, was it really Samuel or not..........God will tell us here:
1Ch 10:13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the LORD, because he did not keep the word of the LORD, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance.
14 But he did not inquire of the LORD; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.
The divine commentary of that episode says: He did not inquire the Lord. So it was not Samuel. [old testament people inquire the Lord through His genuine prophets]
Although, there may be others who will use portions in Revelations to justify that the dead can hear the living here on earth. This Samuel incident should suffice for now.
3) About the excuse of the R.C. that thee is a difference between praying to the dead saints and just talking to them to ask for help:
This excuse is cogent at first glance, it sounds convincing. But looking at the way R.C. asks for help to Mary and the dead saints is quite disturbing. With great devotion they approach Mary and the saints. They call her and them their advocate, their hope and refuge, thanks them for the boundless graces they have received, kneels to them, sing songs to them, makes a procession in honor to them and other disturbing practices.
Would you call that just a mere asking for help and just having plain conversations with another fellow creature? Certainly not!!!! That is plain worship.
4) PLUS GodÂ’s Word is unequivocally clear that we should not have any communications with those who have died:
De 18:10 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
11 "or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or ONE WHO CALLS UP THE DEAD
That's so plain. That's as plain as :"thou shall not steal" and others. We don't need to have high level interpretive skill to understand that........................... that should be enough for now.
So where do i go for help in time of trouble?
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come BOLDLY to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Why?
because "God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble. Psalms 46:1
However, these gurantees can only be ours if we repent and trust in the saving work of Christ alone in Calvary
P.S. i have a question though..........although i was an altar assistant once in the Roman Catholic Church......... i never got to ask my priest about this:
How is it that Roman Catholics ask the intercession of inanimate objects?
"Tower of david.................................." pray for us"
mirror of...... [something i forgot].........."pray for us"
"house of gold"........................"pray for us"
ark of the covenant .................."pray for us"
can you fill me on this one? where is the biblical support that we ask the ark of the covenant to pray of us or the tower of David to pray for us? can they even pray in the first place?
bless you thanks
-
Where are the saints?
They are in heaven and they are not dead! They have eternal life with God!
The so-called praying to inanimate objects is actually, not.
It is from the Litany of Loretto.
http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/Litanies/Loreto.htm -
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:
They are not dead but doesn't mean they can hear us and should hear us?
[b]Where are the saints?
They are in heaven and they are not dead! They have eternal life with God! -
The Christians who make it to the eternal life are still part of the Body of Christ. If we who are part of it are expected to pray for each other, is the Church Triumphant expected not to?Originally posted by Icemoon:They are not dead but doesn't mean they can hear us and should hear us? -
amen on that one.Originally posted by Icemoon:They are not dead but doesn't mean they can hear us and should hear us? -
double postOriginally posted by SingaporeMacross:The Christians who make it to the eternal life are still part of the Body of Christ. If we who are part of it are expected to pray for each other, is the Church Triumphant expected not to? -
if all our doctrines and theologies be based on human logic, i wonder where would we end up. Liberalism most probably. [i don't mean of course that we will not absolutely use logic anymore. There is what we call a "sanctified and illuminated" logic].Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:The Christians who make it to the eternal life are still part of the Body of Christ. If we who are part of it are expected to pray for each other, is the Church Triumphant expected not to?
The Jews superimposing logic over God's revelation came up with countless different doctrines that the clear revelation of God in the Scriptures was obscured and set aside.
Tit 1:14 "not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth [revealed in God's Word]."
Mt 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
If we make logic the primary barometer of truth, then all the doctrines of orthodoxy of Christianity would be thrown out the window.
Logic is good but it must be regulated, limited and restricted by God's revelation. It is God's revelation over logic not logic over God's revelation.
A good and God-fearing theologian follows that principle. Men in the late 1800's strayed off from that principle and became liberals in their theology. What a sad plight.
The Bible said: that we are not to call on the dead, that the dead know nothing. But you still hold on to what you think. What you must do is to bow down to the authority of Scripture. After all it is God's Word right? for sure you believe that also right?
When you bow down to the teachings of Scripture......you are submitting to the authority of God. You are worshipping Him.
Make the Bible your sole guide my friend. As i have said you can never go wrong. -
whereas Ironside is kind enough to consider this logical .. I beg to differ.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:The Christians who make it to the eternal life are still part of the Body of Christ. If we who are part of it are expected to pray for each other, is the Church Triumphant expected not to?
I find this line of reasoning fallacious, just like arguing monkeys lay eggs 'cos chickens do as both belong to the Animalia kingdom. -
The question is: Are the Christians in Heaven part of the Body of Christ?Originally posted by Icemoon:whereas Ironside is kind enough to consider this logical .. I beg to differ.
I find this line of reasoning fallacious, just like arguing monkeys lay eggs 'cos chickens do as both belong to the Animalia kingdom. -
I told you, they are not dead, they are in eternal life with Christ.Originally posted by Ironside:The Bible said: that we are not to call on the dead, that the dead know nothing. But you still hold on to what you think. What you must do is to bow down to the authority of Scripture. After all it is God's Word right? for sure you believe that also right?
When you bow down to the teachings of Scripture......you are submitting to the authority of God. You are worshipping Him.
Make the Bible your sole guide my friend. As i have said you can never go wrong.
Luke 20:38, "Now He is not God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to Him."
John 11:25 "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he dies, yet shall he live. 26 And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."
And you cannot prove that the Bible alone is sufficient. The hundreds of churches out there who claim to follow the Bible but have countless permutations of differing interpretations cannot do so either. Why should I believe in your personal interpretation? Do you have authority?
No, I rather trust in a Church that has existed for 2000 years, founded by Christ himself on the apostle Peter. Churches that have only existed for only 500 or even less cannot possibly have the authority to interpret scripture, for they were founded by men. -
hehe... a lot of quoting from bible. But no one can answer why the Protestant fathers honoured Mother Mary.
So much for "bible alone - sola scriptura".
It's like saying one plus one is not equals to two. Cuz bible didn't say so. -
Avoiding issue has been the staple style here.Originally posted by Honeybunz:hehe... a lot of quoting from bible. But no one can answer why the Protestant fathers honoured Mother Mary.
So much for "bible alone - sola scriptura".
It's like saying one plus one is not equals to two. Cuz bible didn't say so.
-
First, lets make the distinction here.Originally posted by Honeybunz:hehe... a lot of quoting from bible. But no one can answer why the Protestant fathers honoured Mother Mary.
So much for "bible alone - sola scriptura".
It's like saying one plus one is not equals to two. Cuz bible didn't say so.
From the oxford dictionary of current english:
Pray : To make devout supplication
The act of praying : To request or give thanksgiving to God or an object of worship, from the bible, we also learn that praying is an act of worship.
Honour : To have high respect or public regard
Venerate : To respect deeply.
To say that the protestant father honoured mary is one thing, this is totally different from praying to mary.
Please get this fact straight. There is nothing wrong with showing respect to mary for being the vessel by which our redeemer was given to us, but it is a whole different thing to pray to mary to ask her to make supplication for you to Jesus.
The bible states and I quote:
1 Timothy 2:5 NKJV
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus -
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=prayOriginally posted by breytonhartge:First, lets make the distinction here.
From the oxford dictionary of current english:
Pray : To make devout supplication
The act of praying : To request or give thanksgiving to God or an object of worship, from the bible, we also learn that praying is an act of worship.
Honour : To have high respect or public regard
Venerate : To respect deeply.
To say that the protestant father honoured mary is one thing, this is totally different from praying to mary.
Please get this fact straight. There is nothing wrong with showing respect to mary for being the vessel by which our redeemer was given to us, but it is a whole different thing to pray to mary to ask her to make supplication for you to Jesus.
The bible states and I quote:
1 Timothy 2:5 NKJV
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
pray ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr)
v. prayed, pray·ing, prays
v. intr.
To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.
To make a fervent request or entreaty.
v. tr.
To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.
To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.
In church, we pray with them not to them as we don't worship them. We "pray" to them to ask for their prayer.To say that the protestant father honoured mary is one thing, this is totally different from praying to mary.
So honouring Mary is correct. Will you start honouring her tomorrow
Please get this fact straight. There is nothing wrong with showing respect to mary for being the vessel by which our redeemer was given to us, -
If by honouring you mean I give her due as the vessel by which our Lord Jesus was born, then yes. Even the angel honoured mary because she was righteous. If by honour as she is the mother of Christ or the mother of God, then no. She is the mother of Jesus while he was on this earth that is all.Originally posted by Honeybunz:So honouring Mary is correct. Will you start honouring her tomorrow
So will you stop praying to mary? Like I said why pray to mary when we are specifically commanded not to? The RC church has made idols of all of the saints and mary, therefore we are specifically commanded not to pray to idols, even in the act of praying to them, you have made them an idol and put them before God. And God clearly states in the commandments you shall not pray to idols.
God says very clearly in the verse that I have quoted that we have one and only ONE mediator who is Jesus. -
If you supposedly pray with them, are you sure they are really praying because it says in the bible thatOriginally posted by Honeybunz:In church, we pray with them not to them as we don't worship them. We "pray" to them to ask for their prayer.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 (New King James Version)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
From here we see that the believers who have come before are sleeping. So if they sleep are they praying?
Also since they are sleeping, will they hear you when you "pray" to them to ask them for their prayer? -
HBz,
I've stated my stand since Peter being the Petra.
This time, we differ again.
I doubt there will come a time we'll agree.
Cheers -
Yes.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:The question is: Are the Christians in Heaven part of the Body of Christ?
Question: Can Christians in heaven suddenly became imbued with the godly attribute of omniscience [which only God alone can possess] or omnipresence to hear the prayers down here on earth?
Since it is clear that the dead saints do not and certainly cannot possess attributes which God can only possess-omniscience and omnipresence-
why waste time praying to them? After all they might be busy attending to other prayers from other parts of the world [if indeed they can hear prayers].
why not go directly to God whose phones can never go busy?
P.S. what a sad plight for saint Peter and saint Paul, after all the hardships they went through here on earth.........they can still hear the bad news about what's happening here.
"Saint Paul......please tell God to hasten the reconstruction of the church named after you...........since it got burned down last year by a deranged man.............you got terribly burned from the neck up"
"Saint paul please tell God to let the thief of the crown of your statue be caught and be brought to justice...yeah......he stole your crown."
"Saint Peter........your great, great, great, great, great, great great, grandson did not believe in the gospel you taught and preached........he committed suicide...
..........and they thought that heaven was a place of bliss and joy..........where tears are no more.........