The true meaning of Valentine's Day!
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Originally posted by laurence82:Dude, whats the correlation between St Valentines day and divorce rates? Its like you are saying, because we celebrate more during this day, the divorce rates goes up...its like...KSM? Not only that, you are ignoring whole host of social issues at hand.
Secondly, if its not a Christian celebration, then why the heck the early Christians had already 'Christianised' this festival? I think there is implicit mockery of the early Christians.
there is no intention to offend anybody. But is Valentine's Day a Christians festival? How many who celebrate this day regard it as a Christian festival? Are churches celebrating this day??
The ways this day are celebrated, especially the special deals offered by the hotels to lovers, are making a mockery of Christian teaching in marriage and BGR!!
Is there any link between Valentine's day and divorce rates? probably not, that is why i asked if it is a coincidence. But free and easy pre-marital relationship is contributing to the lack of respect for marital vow, and is one of the social issues contributing to higher divoice rate, is it not?? -
If its not a Christian festival, why would it make mockery of Christian teachings in marriage and BGR, since the Christians do not claim Valentine Day as their own religious festival.Originally posted by sgdiehard: there is no intention to offend anybody. But is Valentine's Day a Christians festival? How many who celebrate this day regard it as a Christian festival? Are churches celebrating this day??
The ways this day are celebrated, especially the special deals offered by the hotels to lovers, are making a mockery of Christian teaching in marriage and BGR!!
Is there any link between Valentine's day and divorce rates? probably not, that is why i asked if it is a coincidence. But free and easy pre-marital relationship is contributing to the lack of respect for marital vow, and is one of the social issues contributing to higher divoice rate, is it not??
As for your second point, there is increase conversion to Christianity, with the explosion of megachurches, and there is increase in divorce rates...coincidence?
Try to make a point instead of throwing smoke bombs. -
I dunno any statistics that can back up your claim but I don't see your point.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Is there any link between Valentine's day and divorce rates? probably not, that is why i asked if it is a coincidence. But free and easy pre-marital relationship is contributing to the lack of respect for marital vow, and is one of the social issues contributing to higher divoice rate, is it not??
Not sure what you mean by pre-marital relationship? You mean promiscous sex with strangers when you're attached? -
Who said that valentine's day is a christian festival, I DIN'T !!Originally posted by laurence82:If its not a Christian festival, why would it make mockery of Christian teachings in marriage and BGR, since the Christians do not claim Valentine Day as their own religious festival.
As for your second point, there is increase conversion to Christianity, with the explosion of megachurches, and there is increase in divorce rates...coincidence?
Try to make a point instead of throwing smoke bombs.
If it is, as YOU said, then it is a mockery of Christian's teaching.
If indeed you see a possible correlation between the explosion of megachurches and divorce rate, stay clear of those megachurches.
I see a possible correlation between divorce rate and some expressions of love during valentine, especially those advocated commercially, I don't follow. Knowing clearing what values you hold true and firm in life will enable you to walk in the night and through the fog. Smoke bombs is nothing.
Good night. -
Pre-marital sex between couples, not with strangers. Hotels today are offering deals for couples to spend the valentine's night. Things like this clashes with christians belief in keeping one pure for the other half till marriage.Originally posted by Icemoon:I dunno any statistics that can back up your claim but I don't see your point.
Not sure what you mean by pre-marital relationship? You mean promiscous sex with strangers when you're attached?
I don't have statistics, just believe that certain ways valentine's are celebrated clashes with the teaching of respect for marriage, it is very likely, in my opinion, one of the reason for breaking down in marriage. don't ask me to prove. To me everyday is the day to express my love to my wife. -
So, St Valentines Day is not a Christian festival and its not a mockery of Christians teachings? Right?Originally posted by sgdiehard:Who said that valentine's day is a christian festival, I DIN'T !!
If it is, as YOU said, then it is a mockery of Christian's teaching.
If indeed you see a possible correlation between the explosion of megachurches and divorce rate, stay clear of those megachurches.
I see a possible correlation between divorce rate and some expressions of love during valentine, especially those advocated commercially, I don't follow. Knowing clearing what values you hold true and firm in life will enable you to walk in the night and through the fog. Smoke bombs is nothing.
Good night.
And which is which? St Valentines day contribute to divorce rates or not?Originally posted by sgdiehard: there is no intention to offend anybody. But is Valentine's Day a Christians festival? How many who celebrate this day regard it as a Christian festival? Are churches celebrating this day??
The ways this day are celebrated, especially the special deals offered by the hotels to lovers, are making a mockery of Christian teaching in marriage and BGR!!
Is there any link between Valentine's day and divorce rates? probably not, that is why i asked if it is a coincidence.But free and easy pre-marital relationship is contributing to the lack of respect for marital vow, and is one of the social issues contributing to higher divoice rate, is it not??
Does St Valentines Day promote free easy and even promiscuous relationships? This is the first time I heard of this, and from what I know, love extends to family and friends.
Gee, am i supposed to think St Valentine want me to commit incests and conduct mass orgies? -
Did the hotels ad go like this?Originally posted by sgdiehard:Pre-marital sex between couples, not with strangers. Hotels today are offering deals for couples to spend the valentine's night. Things like this clashes with christians belief in keeping one pure for the other half till marriage.
I don't have statistics, just believe that certain ways valentine's are celebrated clashes with the teaching of respect for marriage, it is very likely, in my opinion, one of the reason for breaking down in marriage. don't ask me to prove. To me everyday is the day to express my love to my wife.
"Come make sweet hot love in our rooms and get 50% off the usual rates. Plus we throw in a bottle of champagne too!'
Again, how does St V day encourage divorce? In Singapore, we are so damn career minded, so boring, and living in such a stressful monotoneous lifestyle that we neglect the very element that makes relationship tick - love. Already we have to have such ads to entice us to make more effort to put romance into our lives, its almost as disgraceful as the French needing lessons on how to create romance or the Courtesy campaign to teach us manners. -
Valentine's day is definitely not a Christian festival, but because of it's western connotation (and sadly, Christianity is still seen as a western religion) and the fact that there is a "St" connected to the name, is it perceived to be Christian festival. The fact that Muslims and Hindus are not encouraged to celebrate this festival of "love" also testifies the fact that it is a "Christian" festival. This is no different from Santa Claus being seen as part of Christian lore, although this character has no relation to the birth of Christ whatsoever. Hence, it will not be too incorrect to say that Valentine's day (and Santa Claus) is in a way, making a mockery of fundamental Christianity.
So, St Valentines Day is not a Christian festival and its not a mockery of Christians teachings? Right? Whether the Valentine character exists or not remains to be seen. Even though if he exists, the lore tells us that the festival was to commemorate his "martyrdom", it does not seem that the festivities were ordained by the church.
Link: http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/valentine/?page=history
Nope, I don't believe Valentine's contribute to divorce rates. The problem really, is those starry eyed youths who spluged on flowers and hope to get lucky that night. Obviously there are also those starry eyed lustful adults who hope to get laid.
And which is which? St Valentines day contribute to divorce rates or not?
Does St Valentines Day promote free easy and even promiscuous relationships? This is the first time I heard of this, and from what I know, love extends to family and friends.
Gee, am i supposed to think St Valentine want me to commit incests and conduct mass orgies?
But all said and done, it is too simplistic to attribute to the rate of divorce over a once a year event.
Cheers. -
[b] The ways this day are celebrated, especially the special deals offered by the hotels to lovers, are making a mockery of Christian teaching in marriage and BGR!!
Hotels (and businesses) are there to make money anyway they can. They are not there to be one's moral compass. To say that the special deals make a mockery of Christian teaching in marriage is as good as saying that restaurants offering buffet make a mockery of the Christian teaching that our body is the temple of God.
b] -
err... before I go any further, valentine's day never had a Saint in front. If it is my ignorance that valentine's day is STAINT valentine's day, I apologise. No offence intented for those who observe St. Valentine's day; and my sincere apology to those who observe Valentine's Day as their religious festival, just that I do not agree that it is a christian festival.Originally posted by laurence82:And which is which? St Valentines day contribute to divorce rates or not?
Does St Valentines Day promote free easy and even promiscuous relationships? This is the first time I heard of this, and from what I know, love extends to family and friends.
Gee, am i supposed to think St Valentine want me to commit incests and conduct mass orgies?
Is valentine's day a day to extend love to family and friends?? is it common that families go out to celebrate this day or only couples in love? sales of roses went sky-high, but not flowers like carnation and others, just an observation, no statistics to prove that, just asked a flowerist.
To me and most around me, valentine's day is a Western Lovers' Day, a day for those in love to express and enjoy their love. This is the way the Taiwanese, the mainland Chinese and even the Philippino understand. Those who you who believe in the true meaning of St. Valentine's Day have lots of explanation to make. -
Hotels (and businesses) make money but follow the compass of the secular law, e.g. smoke is not allowed, no alcohol for kids under 18; the compass of some religious compass, e.g. Halal food, Buddist vagetarian food.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Hotels (and businesses) are there to make money anyway they can. They are not there to be one's moral compass. To say that the special deals make a mockery of Christian teaching in marriage is as good as saying that restaurants offering buffet make a mockery of the Christian teaching that our body is the temple of God.
Due to ignorance, if a restaurant catering to the muslim offer roast pork made of flour, it will be a mockery of islamic teaching.
Scotts used to put a few little devils figurings as advertisement during Christmas, that is a mockering of the true meaning of Christmas.
I cannot see how restaurants offering buffet can be a mockery of the Christian teaching that our body is the temple of God. Buffet where we can choose the type of food we want and quantity we need is definitely better than the 10 course dinner served, even then, you choose what you want to eat. How does that contradict the Christian teaching? -
Secular law governs the society, secular law is not obligated to provide the moral compass. While occasionally secular law upholds any religion's moral direction, it is incidental and the purpose is uphold the country, eg filial piety. Secular law does not care if two married people (not to each other) have an affair or a legally aged individual decide to be promiscious.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Hotels (and businesses) make money but follow the compass of the secular law, e.g. smoke is not allowed, no alcohol for kids under 18; the compass of some religious compass, e.g. Halal food, Buddist vagetarian food.
The issue on halal food is there because of the large number of muslim in this country. If the country has very very few muslim, such a law will not exist.
Yes it is. Likewise Swensen has to withdraw the Piglet character in their Winnie the Pooh ice cream cake. This is NOT secular law, per se, this is business decision for Muslims to eat there, therefore generating more revenue. It is still a money driven motivation, needed MUIS certification.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Due to ignorance, if a restaurant catering to the muslim offer roast pork made of flour, it will be a mockery of islamic teaching.
It depends on how one look at it. One argument (not mine) is that because Christmas is so close to new year, any decoration done may not specifically be targeted for Christmas. Can we say that this argument is wrong? Also if all I want is to make money and bring in the customers, and calculated that any risk is minimal, don't I have the right to do any decoration I want? - approach it from a non-Christian business standpoint.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Scotts used to put a few little devils figurings as advertisement during Christmas, that is a mockering of the true meaning of Christmas.
I use the buffet example to illustrate how, if I want to, twist a business decision (for the restaurant) and a personal decision (for self) into a "Christian" theme controversy. To say that valentine will lead to divorce or immoral lifestyle is also to say that the abundant choice of food will lead to gluttony. Yes you are right, you can choose what you want to eat, but another can choose to indulge in glutton (or sexual deprivation, for that matter)Originally posted by sgdiehard:I cannot see how restaurants offering buffet can be a mockery of the Christian teaching that our body is the temple of God. Buffet where we can choose the type of food we want and quantity we need is definitely better than the 10 course dinner served, even then, you choose what you want to eat. How does that contradict the Christian teaching?
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Yes there is.....http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15254a.htmOriginally posted by sgdiehard:err... before I go any further, valentine's day never had a Saint in front. If it is my ignorance that valentine's day is STAINT valentine's day, -
If it is not a Christian festival then there is no implication that Christians need to observe this festival, whether it make a mockery or even insult Christianity, or any other religion, in the name of freedom of speech, or freedom to celebrate, nobody should say anything.Originally posted by laurence82:So, St Valentines Day is not a Christian festival and its not a mockery of Christians teachings? Right?
Just a matter of interest, do you know if any married couples check into hotels to celebrate valentine's ? The few I know, certainly not representative of all, all were not married.Originally posted by laurence82:Did the hotels ad go like this?
"Come make sweet hot love in our rooms and get 50% off the usual rates. Plus we throw in a bottle of champagne too!'
Again, how does St V day encourage divorce? In Singapore, we are so damn career minded, so boring, and living in such a stressful monotoneous lifestyle that we neglect the very element that makes relationship tick - love. Already we have to have such ads to entice us to make more effort to put romance into our lives, its almost as disgraceful as the French needing lessons on how to create romance or the Courtesy campaign to teach us manners.
When two able man and woman, sharing the same room over a night, after taking a bottle of chamgpagne, even if there is no love between them, do you think nothing will happen?? I don't intend to argue on matters of moral value, but I think anybody with a clear mind will know how things will end up in a room like that. There is no need to spell it out.
Yes, many reasons are leading to higher divorce rate. I am just wondering why the rate was much lower before and I firmly believe that the respect of the marriage had enable, or even forced couples to endure one another till death. Were their lifestyle monotoneous? much more! no TV no computer no overseas trips, may be thats why they made love. . Were they stressful? one breadwinner feeding wife plus 3 to 4 children, you tell me.
did our parents talk much about LOVE? I doubt so. They just did not give up the relationship easily, they did not go to bed easily with another person. Today, we are too easy, relative to the past, in starting a relationship, go all the way, then back ..... the hotels and businesses are making it easy, in the name of celebration. -
Actually quite stupid, these couples.... do it the week after... cheaperOriginally posted by sgdiehard:Just a matter of interest, do you know if any married couples check into hotels to celebrate valentine's ? The few I know, certainly not representative of all, all were not married.
When two able man and woman, sharing the same room over a night, after taking a bottle of chamgpagne, even if there is no love between them, do you think nothing will happen?? I don't intend to argue on matters of moral value, but I think anybody with a clear mind will know how things will end up in a room like that. There is no need to spell it out.
Still, isn't it their perogative to do what they want? As long as it does not violate their religious creed (whatever it maybe). The only right we have to argue along these lines is that if Christians do it - checking into a room.... blah blah blah...
The divorce rate was much lower because of a few points:Originally posted by sgdiehard:Yes, many reasons are leading to higher divorce rate. I am just wondering why the rate was much lower before and I firmly believe that the respect of the marriage had enable, or even forced couples to endure one another till death. Were their lifestyle monotoneous? much more! no TV no computer no overseas trips, may be thats why they made love. . Were they stressful? one breadwinner feeding wife plus 3 to 4 children, you tell me.
1. Difficult to get out of a marriage.
2. Male dominated society where women do not have much rights.
3. Social stigma of a divorce.
4. Financial repercussions.
5. Many bury their problems
Why one breadwinner can feed spouse and many kids:
1. Lower cost of living.
2. Lower standard of living.
3. Lower expectations in life.
Is there less stress - probably not.... I remember the times when my dad was retrenched, or that we did not have money to have a decent meal. Different kind of stress, probably true....
Unfortunately, also people of the era do not talk much about their relationship. So meaning, you won't know that there are problems. Simply put, many just give up to the fact that they are stuck with one person for the rest of their life, it does not mean that they are happy with each other.
did our parents talk much about LOVE? I doubt so. They just did not give up the relationship easily, they did not go to bed easily with another person. Today, we are too easy, relative to the past, in starting a relationship, go all the way, then back ..... the hotels and businesses are making it easy, in the name of celebration.
While it is endearing to see an old couple walking hand in hand, it is more likely for us to see old couples getting at each other's throat.
.....all these has nothing to do with valentine's day, just times have changed. -
This is like having a access to the top of a 40 storeys building to give one a choice to go there and jump down. This is stretching too far.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I use the buffet example to illustrate how, if I want to, twist a business decision (for the restaurant) and a personal decision (for self) into a "Christian" theme controversy. To say that valentine will lead to divorce or immoral lifestyle is also to say that the abundant choice of food will lead to gluttony. Yes you are right, you can choose what you want to eat, but another can choose to indulge in glutton (or sexual deprivation, for that matter) I stop here.
While I strongly disagree with some of the ways the celebrations go, clearly I cannot persist in linking this day to any kind of social illness. And I declare that I do not link St. Valentine's Day, the true meaning and purpose of this day, to divorce rate.
Apology once again to those offended. -
well I really don't care about this until it was said that St. Valentine's Day is a Christians festival implying that Christians should observe.Originally posted by Chin Eng:The only right we have to argue along these lines is that if Christians do it - checking into a room.... blah blah blah..
actually checking into a room is an issue even for non christians. My company used to organise a seminar and to save costs put two in a room, until the last two, happened to be one man (just married) and a lady (not married). Hmm...it was not a Chrisitan consideration, they were given separate room.
They din talk about relationship but they value the relationship. When my father was sick, I could hear my mother talking about how he din know how to take care of himself, and at the same time, she is cooking all kinds of food and herb to help him. Many old folks, quarrelled like dogs and cats but when on of them passed away, the others easily go into depression. They may not feel happy, but they also do not believe they could find happiness going to a third person. Luckily for me, my parents find happiness with my children.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Unfortunately, also people of the era do not talk much about their relationship. So meaning, you won't know that there are problems. Simply put, many just give up to the fact that they are stuck with one person for the rest of their life, it does not mean that they are happy with each other.
While it is endearing to see an old couple walking hand in hand, it is more likely for us to see old couples getting at each other's throat.
.....all these has nothing to do with valentine's day, just times have changed.
China went through 1966 to 1976 with no change in their society (the cultural revolution period). It is the changes in the little things that changed our society, but did we change our society or our society changed us?
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I think you have changed the context of the discussion. Obviously sharing a room with the opposite sex (married or otherwise) who you have no relationship with is awkward. Let me take it one step further. I travel for business frequently, and I WILL NEVER EVER SHARE A ROOM with anyone, male included.Originally posted by sgdiehard:well I really don't care about this until it was said that St. Valentine's Day is a Christians festival implying that Christians should observe.
actually checking into a room is an issue even for non christians. My company used to organise a seminar and to save costs put two in a room, until the last two, happened to be one man (just married) and a lady (not married). Hmm...it was not a Chrisitan consideration, they were given separate room.
The context of the discussion was two people who are in a relationship opening a room for a certain amount of intimacy and not a colleague/colleague business trip for convenience. The last scenario is awkward under any culture.
You are right. One generation has one way of coping... another has another way. Which is right? As long as the folks involved are happy with it. Divorce in the previous generation is NOT AN OPTION. Whether divorce is a GOOD SOLUTION or not is not the question.Originally posted by sgdiehard:They din talk about relationship but they value the relationship. When my father was sick, I could hear my mother talking about how he din know how to take care of himself, and at the same time, she is cooking all kinds of food and herb to help him. Many old folks, quarrelled like dogs and cats but when on of them passed away, the others easily go into depression. They may not feel happy, but they also do not believe they could find happiness going to a third person. Luckily for me, my parents find happiness with my children.
An extremely philosophical question, I must say. As good a question as which comes first, chicken or the egg....Originally posted by sgdiehard:China went through 1966 to 1976 with no change in their society (the cultural revolution period). It is the changes in the little things that changed our society, but did we change our society or our society changed us? -
topic drift liao.
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WHat you guys talking about?
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must have drifted very far. Must stop now.
Nice talking to you, Chin Eng. Thanks and have a good day. -
no problem.. you didn't reply my PM.....Originally posted by sgdiehard: must have drifted very far. Must stop now.
Nice talking to you, Chin Eng. Thanks and have a good day. -
So to conclude, St V day is also another rip-off day for clueless couples?
Lucky for me, I am living a monastic lifestyle now. >. -
teok lah! gia lui!Originally posted by laurence82:So to conclude, St V day is also another rip-off day for clueless couples?
Lucky for me, I am living a monastic lifestyle now. >.
major benefactors for this occasion: greeting card companies, food and beverage industry, hospitality industry, and not to forget- the florists.... -
The original context is about loving couples checking into hotel rooms during valentine's day. I asked if married couples would waste that kind of money, home is always better. I think it is not right to encourage those who are not married to check in hotel rooms for I personally believe this would lead to the ultimate intimacy.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I think you have changed the context of the discussion. Obviously sharing a room with the opposite sex (married or otherwise) who you have no relationship with is awkward. Let me take it one step further. I travel for business frequently, and I WILL NEVER EVER SHARE A ROOM with anyone, male included.
The context of the discussion was two people who are in a relationship opening a room for a certain amount of intimacy and not a colleague/colleague business trip for convenience. The last scenario is awkward under any culture.
Now we both agee that sharing a room with anyone, except our spouse, is not very acceptable.
Well, this is a continuous and a two way process. Our education and family upbringing shaped us and when in society, those who play a greater role will do things that bring about changes in society; those who are low profile or play passive role will let the society shape them.Originally posted by Chin Eng:An extremely philosophical question, I must say. As good a question as which comes first, chicken or the egg....
As Christians, how far are we prepared to make our voice heard so that the society does not change against our values, if not shaping the soiety with our values? The muslim community has succeeded to a larger extent. Now we have many foodcourts which are selling halal food. Christians can talk till cows come home but we have yet to see a restaurant that sell food that is clean for Christians.
This is really getting too far from the main topic. Will stop here.
Thanks and regards