Balance between works and faith
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Think the version if ur "truth" is different from mine?Originally posted by laurence82:I can see that ironside and laoda has different opinions on whether to pursue the truth or not.
I believe your pursuit of truth can only draw u further away from Christ...
If u read the bible just to find errors, contradictions, mebbe it is best that u dun read it at all. I did it last time to attack my Christian gf when I was a non-believer. I got nothing out from it. Probably better to do something more worthwhile. -
So what sins did they commit specifically?Originally posted by laoda99:Was once like u....believing that Christ only paid for one class of sins, but it is not so actually...
Remember what Christ told the pple he has healed b4 he was crucified?
"Your sins are forgiven..." -
Think u have to ask Christ....Originally posted by Icemoon:So what sins did they commit specifically?
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I think even if just to find errors/contridictions, its still ok to read, better than not reading, When I first read the bible (many years back), my aim is to find things to make fun of my christian friends.... in the end, the only thing I found was Christ.Originally posted by laoda99:Think the version if ur "truth" is different from mine?
I believe your pursuit of truth can only draw u further away from Christ...
If u read the bible just to find errors, contradictions, mebbe it is best that u dun read it at all. I did it last time to attack my Christian gf when I was a non-believer. I got nothing out from it. Probably better to do something more worthwhile.
(btw, the whole bunch of us who tried this back then, are all believers today)
Let those who seek (whatever original intentions it may start out to be), find Him (Christ), who knows, it may just be a life transforming journey.
cheers
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1) Refer to aboveOriginally posted by breytonhartge:article 4 I 1424 [6] It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest's sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."
article 4 VII 1456 Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance
I quoted this to show the point about how wrong it is because it says that it is only when the priest gives you absolution then will you receive God's forgiveness. This makes your forgiveness dependent on a man and not Jesus. God's forgiveness to us in not controlled or conditional upon a mere man forgiving us. It is conditional upon us accepting His Grace and what Jesus did for us. Why is confession to a priest an essential part of our sins being forgiven? The bible clearly states and I have said before that you confess your sins directly to God.
Article 4 V 1437 1437 Reading Sacred Scripture, praying the Liturgy of the Hours and the Our Father - every sincere act of worship or devotion revives the spirit of conversion and repentance within us and contributes to the forgiveness of our sins.
Article 4 V 1438 1438 The seasons and days of penance in the course of the liturgical year (Lent, and each Friday in memory of the death of the Lord) are intense moments of the Church's penitential practice.[36] These times are particularly appropriate for spiritual exercises, penitential liturgies, pilgrimages as signs of penance, voluntary self-denial such as fasting and almsgiving, and fraternal sharing (charitable and missionary works).
If you read this it suggests that “works” can contribute to the forgiveness of our sins, by praying and worship etc… we have our forgiveness by Grace and not by works as rightly suggested here.
Article 4 VI 1441 Only God forgives sins.[39] Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."[40] Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.[41]
The passage starts out by saying only God forgives sin and Jesus has authority to forgive sins, but how then is this jump made so that Jesus gives man the authority to forgive sins? The term here Ths Son of man is a reference to Jesus’ deity. In the bible it says that only God can forgive sins Isaiah 43:25; Mark 2:7. But as the Son of man, Jesus had the power to forgive sins Mark 2:10, When asked by the high priest in Matthew 23:63 whether He was the “Son of God”, He responded affirmatively, declaring that He was the Son of man who would come in power and great glory Matthew 23:64. This indicates that Jesus himself uses the phrase “the Son of man” to indicate His deity as the Son of God.
Lastly, in using the term Son of man Jesus is emphasizing His work in His salvation offered for us. In the OT, the next of kin always functioned as the kinsman redeemer, see Ruth 2:20. Jesus thus by being the Son of man became related to us by blood and therefore could function as our kinsman redeemer and rescue us from sin.
The title here has nothing to do with Jesus or God giving man the authority to forgive sins as the passage in the article of catechism states. Which reminds me that you still have not answered my question about where in the bible does God or Jesus give us or men or priests for that matter the authority to forgive sins. Jesus as the Son of man had this authority because He was both deity and human at the same time, something we are not. [b]1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
You also say in your reply that we must do penance in order to be conformed to the image of Christ, where in the bible is this stated?
[/b][/quote]
Forgiveness of sins by the priest
Article 1442 in the Catechism says:
Only God forgives sins (Mk 2:7) since he is the Son of God Jesus himself says "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power "Your sins are forgiven" (Mk 2:5, Lk 7:4
Further he gives this power to men to exercise in his name (Jn 20:21-23)
So it is clear that the Church’s teaching on forgiving is clear: only God does the forgiving. The priest is merely asked by God to carry it out ‘the ministry of reconciliation’
Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus gave priests the authority to forgive sins?
2 Corinthians 5:18-20
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
John 20:21-23 (NIV)
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
This commission to forgive sins was given by Jesus to the Apostles, who in turn passed it down to the next generation of apostles, and continued till this day. This serves to show that Priests have authority from Jesus to forgive sins.
Biblical evidence for Penance
I make a distinction between eternal punishment and temporal punishment.
We may be saved from eternal damnation, but we need to repair the effects which our sins have caused. This is what Penance is all about. The thief who was crucified next to Jesus was forgiven by Him and promised eternal life. But Jesus still let him hang next to him to die. The thief still had to pay for his earthly crime.
Even in the OT we see this. God forgave Moses, but he never entered the Promised Land because he killed one of his own people. God forgave King David, but God still let King DavidÂ’s son die.
Penance is a form of discipline that we must accept. Dare we treat his grace as ‘cheap’? Surely some thanksgiving is in order?
Hebrews 12:5-11
5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."
7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
[quote]Originally posted by breytonhartge:
and the exact words of what the priests says is heresy.. I absolve you of your sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. How can he, the priest absolve me of my sin when 1) he does not have the power to do so (1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,) and 2) my sins are already forgiven?
God did not give us priests to serve us, please show me in the bible where this is stated? In the OT, the job of a priest was to serve God and not man. The priest was to attend to God.
2) Christ may have died for us, but we still continue to sin. If His death is not a permit for us to sin, then surely He would have intended another way for us? And like I said, we donÂ’t merely sin against God, but against others. How are you going to make it up to others for sins that you have committed?
We donÂ’t serve the priest, so obviously the priest serves the people of God! And if the priesthood was so important to God, surely it must have implications for us. -
sounds like what i did last time alsoOriginally posted by vince69:I think even if just to find errors/contridictions, its still ok to read, better than not reading, When I first read the bible (many years back), my aim is to find things to make fun of my christian friends.... in the end, the only thing I found was Christ.
(btw, the whole bunch of us who tried this back then, are all believers today)
Let those who seek (whatever original intentions it may start out to be), find Him (Christ), who knows, it may just be a life transforming journey.
cheers -
Still doesnt answer the question abt differences in the opinions of truth from you and ironsideOriginally posted by laoda99:Think the version if ur "truth" is different from mine?
I believe your pursuit of truth can only draw u further away from Christ...
If u read the bible just to find errors, contradictions, mebbe it is best that u dun read it at all. I did it last time to attack my Christian gf when I was a non-believer. I got nothing out from it. Probably better to do something more worthwhile.
pursuit of truth solely equal to drawing one person away from christ meh?
i dont know how u derive this from the whole lot of posts... -
From the bible we see that
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross
Forgiveness of sins by the priest
Article 1442 in the Catechism says:
Only God forgives sins (Mk 2:7) since he is the Son of God Jesus himself says "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power "Your sins are forgiven" (Mk 2:5, Lk 7:4 Further he gives this power to men to exercise in his name (Jn 20:21-23)
So it is clear that the Church’s teaching on forgiving is clear: only God does the forgiving. The priest is merely asked by God to carry it out ‘the ministry of reconciliation’
Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus gave priests the authority to forgive sins?
2 Corinthians 5:18-20
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
John 20:21-23 (NIV)
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
This commission to forgive sins was given by Jesus to the Apostles, who in turn passed it down to the next generation of apostles, and continued till this day. This serves to show that Priests have authority from Jesus to forgive sins.
1) Sins are forgiven, as people believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, “Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins.” Acts 13: 38-39.
2) In believing on the finished work of the Lord Christ Jesus, a soul has both one hundred percent right standing with God credited to him and the forgiveness of sins. "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested.” Rom 3:21 “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.”Eph 1:7
3) Thus the Gospel is the power of God to salvation as the Apostle Paul proclaimed. If one does sin after salvation, it is a relationship problem with the Father in heaven to be resolved, as one directly confesses his sin to God. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”1 John 1:9
However the RC church teaches forgiveness in this way:
1) Forgiveness through the confession of sins to a priest. AOC para 1424.
2) Forgiveness through the sacrament of penance is necessary for salvation, the exact words of which are “It is through the sacrament of Penance that the baptized can be reconciled with God and with the Church…This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn.” AOC para 980
3) Forgiveness for everything through the power of the priests of the Church. “There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. “There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest.” AOC para 982 “Priests have received from God a power that he has given neither to angels nor to archangels...God above confirms what priests do here below. Were there no forgiveness of sins in the Church, there would be no hope of life to come or eternal liberation. Let us thank God who has given his Church such a gift.” AOC para 983
AOC para 980Â… makes penance necessary for salvation for people who are supposedly saved. Can this be? This would make it salvation through works. Ie work for the forgiveness of sin.
The Scriptural backing claimed by Rome for the priest purportedly being able to absolve others of sin is found in Para. 1485 of her Catechism, which quotes John 20:19, 22-23.
The biblical response to this claim is found in a study of the actual words of John 20:23, “Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained.”
This shows 2 things:
1) The forgiveness of sins through the Gospel and not as a judicial result of the sacraments.
2) The manner of forgiveness of sins is through the proclamation of the Gospel and not in confession by whispering into the ear of a man in a confession box.
There is nothing in John 20:23, though, about a priesthood which is ordained to offer sacrifices and remit sins. The Apostles were not priests and they did not offer sacrifices. The only priesthood we read of in the New Testament church is (a) the high priesthood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7-8 ), and (b) the general priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:5,9).
In the NT we never read that the other Christians confessed their sins to the Apostles. The Bible teaches that it is blasphemous to claim that a mere man can forgive sins (Luke 5:21). Sin is always confessed directly to God (Ps. 32:5; 51:4; 86:5; Dan. 9:19). This is how Christ taught us to pray (Luke 11:2,3). James 5:16 says, "Confess your faults to one another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed," but this refers to all Christians and not merely to the Apostles. And note that James does not say that Christians have the authority to forgive sins; he says they have the responsibility to pray for one another that GOD will heal and forgive sins.
In the AOC para 1493, this makes confession essential for the forgiveness of sin. This auricular confession does not even have an old tradition to support it. Ignaz von Dollinger states in the pope and the council by Janus, that the sacrament of penance was unknown in the west for one thousand one hundred years and unknown in the east. Thus what is given as the essential form of the sacrament of penance was unknown for 1100 years and was never known in the greek. -
The rite to confession is stated thus in the AOC para 1493 states and I quote: The rite has necessary words going with it that the priest must use. The prescribed words are, “The formula of absolution used...God, the Father of mercies, /through the death and the
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross
1) Refer to above
resurrection of his Son/has reconciled the world to himself/ and sent the Holy Spirit among us/ for the forgiveness of sins;/ through the ministry of the Church/ may God give you pardon and peace,/ and I absolve you from your sins/in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”
The absolution that is necessary to be obtained is taught by the RC church and is not a declaration of God. By using the words I absolve you from your sinsÂ… the priest in doing this as judge in a judicial act. The council of trent puts it this way:
“However, although the absolution of the priest is the dispensation of the benefaction of
another, yet it is not a bare ministry only, either of an announcing the Gospel or declaring the forgiveness of sins, but it is equivalent to a judicial act, by which sentence is pronounced by him as a judge [can 9].”
This power for priests to forgive sins is also claimed in the AOC para 1441
What is ludicrous about this is the concept of a sinful human being having divine authority judicially to forgive the sins of others. This is totally offensive to God and a denial of the truth of the Written Word of the Lord. Nonetheless this is exactly what the RC church claims for her Priests. The claim is for an identical ministry for the RC priest, with all the authority and power of His person. The exact words of this preposterous assertion are stated in the The councilor and post councilor docs of the Vatican 2, “All priests share with bishops the one identical priesthood and ministry of Christ.
Also in the AOC para 1548 it reads “Now the minister, by reason of the sacerdotal consecration which he has received, is truly made like to the high priest and possesses the authority to act in the power and place of the person of Christ himself (virtute ac persona ipsuis Christi). Christ is the source of all priesthood: the priest of the old law was a figure of Christ, and the priest of the new law acts in the person of Christ.”
The basis for RC churches claim amounts to the outrageous concept of a priestÂ’s ministry being identical with the divine Christ Jesus the Lord.
It is clear from the bible that there is no other Savior, or mediator between God and man, is abundantly taught in the New Testament; and it is, indeed, the main design of revelation to prove this. In the word of the Lord, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6
To assert that a priest can forgive sins as the Lord did, and that the priest has an identical ministry to the Lord Jesus Christ is a blasphemy against the person of the Lord. Scripture did speak of the one who would make such a claim as “the son of perdition”,
“Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Also consider this, in the OT, a priest was only to minister to God, they were never judges. God set up judges separately from the priesthood. The priest do not rule or judge the people. Finally, in the OT, the office of a priest can only be occupied by a person from the tribe of Levi. -
Brey the Catholic scholar.
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Firstly, you make the distinction of eternal sin vs temporal sin. Which if I understand correctly is the distinguishing of original sin vs personal sin. The bible makes no such distinction, sin is sin, whether personal or original.
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross
Biblical evidence for Penance
I make a distinction between eternal punishment and temporal punishment.
We may be saved from eternal damnation, but we need to repair the effects which our sins have caused. This is what Penance is all about. The thief who was crucified next to Jesus was forgiven by Him and promised eternal life. But Jesus still let him hang next to him to die. The thief still had to pay for his earthly crime.
Even in the OT we see this. God forgave Moses, but he never entered the Promised Land because he killed one of his own people. God forgave King David, but God still let King DavidÂ’s son die.
Penance is a form of discipline that we must accept. Dare we treat his grace as ‘cheap’? Surely some thanksgiving is in order?
Hebrews 12:5-11
5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."
7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
To take this further, in RC doctrine, personal sin can be mortal or venial. Mortal sin supposedly cutting off the sinner from God and venial sin is one which does not meet the conditions for a mortal sin. My question is thus this, how do you term that one sin is greater than the other? All sin is sin and all sin will lead to death be they mortal or venial.
The problem here is not the distinguishing between temporal and eternal sin, but by the RC church claiming the need to do works for sin. If you sin, you sin, just confess and you will be forgiven. It has always been stated in the bible that we do not have forgiveness of sin through works. It says in Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Next, the examples that you have quoted here are totally off the mark. I say this because
1)If what happened to Moses was a form of discipline as a form of penance as you say, then Moses would have entered the promised land as he now had no more sin. In Numbers 20:7-13, in particular verse 12. It clearly states there that Moses did not enter the promised land because he did not believe and because of his disobedience to God and not because he killed a man. It is this specific incident that kept Moses out of the promised land. The other reason why God would not have allowed Moses to enter the promised land from a rabbinical view is that it was because of the sin of the unbelief of the spies sent to scout the land.
2)What happened to Moses and King David was a result of their sin, but not penance for their sin. The consequences of sin is death.
The verse you quoted in the bible to support penance is totally off the mark as well. If you read Hebrews 12: 5-11 carefully, it talks about:
1)It specifically talks about the Lords discipline. Since when did God give the priests the authority to discipline man? The priest like I said before, is not a judge or someone who gives discipline. The role of the priest is to plead for the people before God.
2)It says endure hardship as discipline, but it does not say endure penance as discipline. Also the discipline we receive is though endurance of the consequences of our sin. Furthermore, the hardship here could also mean trials and testing etc to perfect our character.
Penance is described in the Oxford dictionary of current English as:
1)act of self-punishment as reparation for sin
2)a sacrament including confession of and absolution for sin and penalty imposed esp. by a priest for a sin.
In the AOC para 1491 The sacrament of Penance is a whole consisting in three actions of the penitent and the priest's absolution. The penitent's acts are repentance, confession or disclosure of sins to the priest, and the intention to make reparation and do works of reparation.
According to "The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Vol. 1, 1969, p. 141, "Penance is a sacrament by which sins committed after baptism are forgiven." It goes on to state in question 171 that in order to receive the sacrament of penance worthily the Roman Catholic must first, examine his conscience; second, be sorry for his sins; third, make up his mind not to sin again; fourth, confess his sins to the priest; and fifth, be willing to do the penance the priest gives them to do.
According to the bible:
•"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus," (Rom. 3:24).
•"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).
•"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).
•"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
•"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him," (Rom. 5:9).
•"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace" (Rom. 11:6).
•"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:.
From the above, we see that
1)The sacrament of penance is a works based means of forgiveness of sin. This is a contradiction of scripture as stated above.
2)A right relationship with God is achieved through our faith in Jesus and not through works or a combination of faith and works. Isaiah 64:6 states that our works are nothing more than filthy rags.
It is very clear from the bible that works of any kind will never be a means of being right with God.
The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Vol. 2, 1969, p. 199 says, "The priest gives us a penance after confession that we may make some atonement to God for our sins, receive help to avoid them in the future, and make some satisfaction for the temporal punishment due to them."
This is wrong because it focuses the atonement for sins not on JesusÂ’ work on the cross, but on the works of the individual via penance.
The bible says:
•"how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Rom. 9:14).
•"but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin," (1 John 1:7).
Thus we see that this sacrament of penance is in direct contradiction to the bible and is wrong because it uses the works that a person does to make right his relationship with God. I will say again, this was never the case in the bible.
The New Saint Joseph Baltimore catechism, Vol. 2, 1969, p. 199 says that penance (some work you do) makes atonement for sins.
What does the word atonement mean?
According to the Oxford dictionary of current English, atonement is described as expiation by Christ of mankindÂ’s sins or the reconciliation of two estranged parties.
According to the Harpers Bible Dictionary, atonement is "the means by which the guilt-punishment chain produced by violation of God’s will is broken, as well as the resulting state of reconciliation (‘at-onement’) with God."
To get the original context of atonement for sins, we look to the OT. In the OT, the atonement for sins was through a priest making sacrifices for sin. See Leviticus 4:20 and Leviticus 4:26 also see Leviticus 6:7. This OT system is not in place today because Christ came to die for us to offer a single eternal sacrifice see Heb 10:10. In the OT, the atonement for sins was made through the priest offering sacrifices and not dictating penance. Now that Jesus has come, He is the atoning sacrifice for us.
•"And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed," (1 Pet. 2:24).
•"When He had made purification of sins..." (Heb. 1:3).
•"Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people," (Heb. 2:17).
•"By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all, 11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God," (Heb. 10:10-11).
It is by faith alone in Christ alone in his work alone that makes us right with God. There is no way that anyone is able to remove his sin through any of his sin-stained efforts. The Roman Catholic Church, because it adds works to the finished work of Christ in order to be made right with God, thus preaches a false gospel.
•"But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed," (Gal. 1:8-9). -
SingaporeMacross statement:
I. 2 Corinthians 5:18-20
”All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.”
Where in those verses does it say that the apostles were given the authority to forgive sins? Paul was speaking here of the gospel ministry. They were preachers of the gospel of Christ, the gospel wherein sinners will find forgiveness if they trusted in what they preached: “Christ crucified for sins and rose again”.Please do not use this verse out of line.
If priests where given the authority to forgiveÂ….what priest are you referring to? Do you not know that all Christians are priests?
Peter speaking to Christians said:
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
II. SingaporeMacross statement:
John 20:21-23 (NIV)
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
This commission to forgive sins was given by Jesus to the Apostles, who in turn passed it down to the next generation of apostles, and continued till this day. This serves to show that Priests have authority from Jesus to forgive sins.
Again this refers to the gospel ministry of the apostles. Notice verse 21:
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you
1) They were sent to preach the gospel to the world. Forgiveness is found only in Christ nothing and no one else. Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.
2) They were given empowerment to do this colossal task: “And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit”
3) They were to declare forgiveness of sins or retention of sins. Arbitrarily? NO. A thousand times no!!!!!! They never understood the Lord's statement that way. How do we know? Whenever there is a difficulty in interpreting the Bible we do not go to magistrates or doctors of the church to find the interpretation, we go to the author of the Bible the Holy Spirit as He interprets certain passages in other portions of the Bible. The principle is: Let the Bible interpret the Bible. REad the book of Acts and you will never find it so, like R.C. understood this verse.
They were to declare forgivness of sins or retain oneÂ’s sins on the basis of the individualÂ’s acceptance or rejection of ChristÂ’s forgiveness they preached. Read the book of the Acts of the apostles. They never arbitrarily retain or forgive anyoneÂ’s sins. Interpret Scripture with Scripture. -
Seems like we had went off from the subject of 'Works and Faiths', and had moved to the subject on 'penance'
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well, it was brought up sort of... heheOriginally posted by vince69:Seems like we had went off from the subject of 'Works and Faiths', and had moved to the subject on 'penance' 
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amazing .. your post was dated 2359Originally posted by breytonhartge:well, it was brought up sort of... hehe -
huh? did I miss something?Originally posted by Icemoon:amazing .. your post was dated 2359 
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think you are just too sleepy, 2359 is the time of the post not the date...Originally posted by Icemoon:amazing .. your post was dated 2359 -
ok, back to the topic on Works and Faith
one thing good about knowing that doing good works is not about working out our salvation (which was given by grace thought Christ Jesus), is that we have the freedom to do good works (even if we don't do any, grace will still be there), and even if we make mistakes in doing it, we can still relay on God's mercy to get us through.