Balance between works and faith
-
IMHO .. Christ has only paid for one class of sins - your sin against the Father.
Mai xiao xiao .. those with this sin are spiritually dead and on their way to eternal death .. regardless of moral character. -
Christ pleaded with the Father to forgive those who humiliated him.
Did Christ ever pleaded with the Father to forgive someone who caused grevious hurt to another person? Like SgMacross said, you pay for your sins. God is very fair in that the criminal beside Jesus did not escape scot free - miraculously (like Paul in jail). -
The Apostle Jude was inspired to warn us of this very deception. "Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 3–4).Originally posted by Icemoon:since Christ has paid for your sins .. does it mean you can ignore any sins you commit in future?
Like I say, acceptance of Jesus first which then cleanses us from our sins, then comes our "work" (which then shows a changed us) which is to live and keep the Ten commandments as Jesus did, to grow in grace and knowledge and to grow in Christian maturity, to grow, to furthur overcome your human nature... not as the catechism suggests, that works together with the acceptance of Christ will cleanse us from our sins. Only through faith and the acceptance of Jesus can this occur.
We do not have to work for our salvation, but once we are saved, we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (philippians 2:12) if you can understand this. Your salvation is a gift, it cannot be earned, but once you have received this gift, you have to decide what it means to you. You have to then show whether you take this gift lightly or not. This then applies also to your forgiveness of sin, it is a gift, undeserved, given by Grace. You then have to decide what this gift means to you. Yes, you will fall from time to time, but there is still the grace for you to come back to God. If you are true, then your heart will be right and you will work out this gift, by growing and continually changing to become more and more like Christ.
In Revelation 12:17, the true Church of God is described as a woman persecuted by the devil. This Church is a remnant. Its members are those "who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Again, the true saints of God are described in like manner in Revelation 14:12: "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." -
On the subject of Forgiveness of Sin
here its clearly says, if the dependency is on works, then its not consider a gift (ie. grace), though I doubt anyone (apart from Christ) can do a perfect work for it to be accepted by God. But to the one who put his trust in God (ie. the work of Christ) instead of his own work, his faith is regarded as righteousness (hence the subject of grace).
Do we then sin? or does this means we can continue to sin?
Roman 4:3-8
3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
4 Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due.
5 And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.
6 So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin."
But do we still sin? the following quotes refects what many of us are going through (or is it just me?),
Roman 6:15-18
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
16 Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
but when I do, I can take comfort in that there is now no condemnation for us that are in Christ Jesus. And its because of this, that we can have a sure footing in life. Someone once told me, "Right believing (What Christ on the cross had done for us) will bring forth the right living.
Romans 7:18-20
18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.
20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
These verse is one of those that comforts me alot
Roman 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
to the belivers, stop flattering yourselves thinking what you just did can separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
Roman 8:38-39
38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. -
vince69 well put and well said
-
This is something interesting, the Bible says,Originally posted by Icemoon:Christ pleaded with the Father to forgive those who humiliated him.
Did Christ ever pleaded with the Father to forgive someone who caused grevious hurt to another person? Like SgMacross said, you pay for your sins. God is very fair in that the criminal beside Jesus did not escape scot free - miraculously (like Paul in jail).
God is Just, God is Righteous, I don't seems to recall it saying God is Fair.
if God is fair, and I have to pay for my sins,
then what is Jesus doing on the cross?
to pay for His sins? of course not, he is there to pay for my sins (our sins), and if Christ had paid for our sins (don't sound fair to Christ), why are we paying again?
But God is Just in that Christ had paid for my sins, and he had done a perfect work paying for them, that Christ on the cross can say "it is finished", and God can rightly say, Its being fully paid for.
another quote
Galatians 3:1-3
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?
Galatians 2:19-21
19 For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose. -
Sorry .. it slipped my mind. God is not fair - this is so as to silence the critics.Originally posted by vince69:This is something interesting, the Bible says,
God is Just, God is Righteous, I don't seems to recall it saying God is Fair.
if God is fair, and I have to pay for my sins,
then what is Jesus doing on the cross?
to pay for His sins? of course not, he is there to pay for my sins (our sins), and if Christ had paid for our sins (don't sound fair to Christ), why are we paying again?
But God is Just in that Christ had paid for my sins, and he had done a perfect work paying for them, that Christ on the cross can say "it is finished", and God can rightly say, Its being fully paid for.
Yes .. God is just. -
But we're dealing with believers right? How come I feel yours is a salvation context?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Like I say, acceptance of Jesus first which then cleanses us from our sins, then comes our "work" (which then shows a changed us) which is to live and keep the Ten commandments as Jesus did, to grow in grace and knowledge and to grow in Christian maturity, to grow, to furthur overcome your human nature... not as the catechism suggests, that works together with the acceptance of Christ will cleanse us from our sins. Only through faith and the acceptance of Jesus can this occur.
Obviously every true blue RC is first and foremost a believer in Christ. -
You want me to count how many 'salvation' keywords I can find in your reply?Originally posted by breytonhartge:The Apostle Jude was inspired to warn us of this very deception. "Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 3–4).
Like I say, acceptance of Jesus first which then cleanses us from our sins, then comes our "work" (which then shows a changed us) which is to live and keep the Ten commandments as Jesus did, to grow in grace and knowledge and to grow in Christian maturity, to grow, to furthur overcome your human nature... not as the catechism suggests, that works together with the acceptance of Christ will cleanse us from our sins. Only through faith and the acceptance of Jesus can this occur.
We do not have to work for our salvation, but once we are saved, we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (philippians 2:12) if you can understand this. Your salvation is a gift, it cannot be earned, but once you have received this gift, you have to decide what it means to you. You have to then show whether you take this gift lightly or not. This then applies also to your forgiveness of sin, it is a gift, undeserved, given by Grace. You then have to decide what this gift means to you. Yes, you will fall from time to time, but there is still the grace for you to come back to God. If you are true, then your heart will be right and you will work out this gift, by growing and continually changing to become more and more like Christ.
In Revelation 12:17, the true Church of God is described as a woman persecuted by the devil. This Church is a remnant. Its members are those "who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Again, the true saints of God are described in like manner in Revelation 14:12: "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."
Of course we assume it is the believer who goes for penance, not someone who haven't accept Christ yet. -
Matthew 19 quoted here, to me is more like Jesus prompting the young man of his value systems. and not really a command to follow the ten commandments, knowing noone except himself can fully and perfectly fulfills that that is required of the Law (ie. the ten commandments)Originally posted by breytonhartge:I think that the works that God is calling us to do is not the kind of works that we have been led to believe.
The works that God is calling us to do is actually to keep the commandments. Jesus himself said this:
"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17)
Jesus then proceeds to tell the rich young ruler what the commandments are:
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’[h] and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
This is exactly what the ten commandments are.
cheers
Matthew 19: 17-26
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
-
I beg to differ. I do not think so. If you read the passage clearly, it says, that if you would enter into life, keep the commandmants. This is not a prompting of someone's value systems, but a clear direction to keeping the value systems of our God. Jesus here also did not say to follow the ten commandments, He says keep them.Originally posted by vince69:Matthew 19 quoted here, to me is more like Jesus prompting the young man of his value systems. and not really a command to follow the ten commandments, knowing noone except himself can fully and perfectly fulfills that that is required of the Law (ie. the ten commandments)
Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
John 14:15
“If you love Me, keep My commandments.
John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My FatherÂ’s commandments and abide in His love.
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
1 John 2: 3-7
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.
From these verses here, it can be seen that we are told to keep the commandments, which according to 1 Corinthians 7:19, we are to keep the commandments of God, which is what matters. And what other commandments does Jesus speak about? But keeping His Fathers commandments. The only commandments that were given by God are the ten commandments. Even in 1 John 2, it talks about this, that no new commandment was given, but the commandment that was given was that which was from the beginning, which is the word which the Jews have heard from the beginning. (Taking this is in the context in which it was being said, to the Jewish people who would have understood what John was talking about.) The only word that the Jews have heard from the beginning is the tanach. The OT.
It is also said by Jesus in Matthew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. If it were not possible for us to be perfect, Jesus would not have uttered these words.
But being led by the Holy Spirit, we can reply that in our human strength, we cannot keep the ten commandments, but to the degree by which one would yield to the Gods Holy Spirit, one can and will keep the ten commandments. Christ within us helps us not to kill, steal, lie, commit adultery, covet, dishonor our parents, break God’s Sabbath, practice idolatry, take God’s name in vain or have another ‘god’ before the true God. We may slip in some point occasionally, but we will then repent and confess our sin to God and have His forgiveness (1 John 1:8–9). Then we quickly get back on God’s path and, through His Spirit, grow in grace and knowledge. We are not perfect. But, through Christ living His life within us, we are growing toward perfection and walking in God’s law as our basic way of life."
Near the end of the Apostolic Age, God inspired the Apostle John to describe the true saints of God: "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city" (Revelation 22:14). -
In the bible, we are told that God is just and if we confess to our sins, we will be forgiven.Originally posted by Icemoon:You want me to count how many 'salvation' keywords I can find in your reply?
Of course we assume it is the believer who goes for penance, not someone who haven't accept Christ yet.
Take it like this, lets say I owe you and apology, but instead of going to you, i go to someone else to tell you that I am sorry. -
I find this disturbing. Isn't this perpetuating the irresponsible mentality?Originally posted by breytonhartge:In the bible, we are told that God is just and if we confess to our sins, we will be forgiven.
Take it like this, lets say I owe you and apology, but instead of going to you, i go to someone else to tell you that I am sorry.
And your analogy I catch no ball. If you owe me an apology .. ultimately who is going to apologise to me? Surely not your right? Then who? -
No it is not. Jesus is our atonement and what better person to keep us in check than God almighty? The Holy Spirit can convict more accurately than any man can for God discerns our hearts and knows exactly what we have done.Originally posted by Icemoon:I find this disturbing. Isn't this perpetuating the irresponsible mentality?
And your analogy I catch no ball. If you owe me an apology .. ultimately who is going to apologise to me? Surely not your right? Then who?
With my analogy, it is like this I owe you an apology, but I go to person A to tell him about what I have done to you and to tell him to tell you that I am sorry. Get it? -
Wouldn't that be insincere?Originally posted by breytonhartge:With my analogy, it is like this I owe you an apology, but I go to person A to tell him about what I have done to you and to tell him to tell you that I am sorry. Get it? -
Take this analogy a little further, supposing I owe you an apology, and I goto A to tell A to tell you that I am sorry, and by the way, I ask A, what do I have to do to clear my conscience? A will then say do this.. and I do it, but when you find out about it, how would you feel? But doing what A said for me to do, may not coincide with what you might want me to do to make it up to you...Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Wouldn't that be insincere?
so now think about this, if I did somthing wrong or sinned in God's eyes, then would it not be insincere to then go to a priest to tell him what I did wrong and to tell him to tell God that I am sorry? To add insult to injury, we then ask the priest what we should do to clear us of this "temporal sin" as you put it. Which is what confession and penance in the RC church is about. -
Hmmm... the reason I said earlier that in this passage Jesus is prompting the values system of the young man, is after vers17-19, comes vers 20 where the young man proudly declared that, all these (refering to the ten commandments) I have kept from my youth, meaning he had kept all the commandments (which if true, will be an amazing thing, since noone can keep them perfectly).Originally posted by breytonhartge:I beg to differ. I do not think so. If you read the passage clearly, it says, that if you would enter into life, keep the commandmants. This is not a prompting of someone's value systems, but a clear direction to keeping the value systems of our God. Jesus here also did not say to follow the ten commandments, He says keep them.
Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
then in ver22, on hearing that he need to sell all he have and give them away, he went away sorrowful, for he had great procession.
This exposed the true value of the young man, his works and his wealth.
In my search so far, here is one place I found, that Jesus says, this is my commandments I gave to you.
cheers
John 15:10-14
10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. -
Let me add to that,Originally posted by breytonhartge:The Apostle Jude was inspired to warn us of this very deception. "Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 3–4).
Like I say, acceptance of Jesus first which then cleanses us from our sins, then comes our "work" (which then shows a changed us) which is to live and keep the Ten commandments as Jesus did, to grow in grace and knowledge and to grow in Christian maturity, to grow, to furthur overcome your human nature... not as the catechism suggests, that works together with the acceptance of Christ will cleanse us from our sins. Only through faith and the acceptance of Jesus can this occur.
We do not have to work for our salvation, but once we are saved, we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (philippians 2:12) if you can understand this. Your salvation is a gift, it cannot be earned, but once you have received this gift, you have to decide what it means to you. You have to then show whether you take this gift lightly or not. This then applies also to your forgiveness of sin, it is a gift, undeserved, given by Grace. You then have to decide what this gift means to you. Yes, you will fall from time to time, but there is still the grace for you to come back to God. If you are true, then your heart will be right and you will work out this gift, by growing and continually changing to become more and more like Christ.
Penance would be of no use if one did not accept Jesus. The Catechism does not teach that you can save yourself.
How does the above passage suggest a way of saving yourself by your own effort?
Chapter 2 - The Sacraments of Healing, Article 4 - The Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation
1424 It is called the sacrament of confession, since the disclosure or confession of sins to a priest is an essential element of this sacrament. In a profound sense it is also a "confession" - acknowledgment and praise - of the holiness of God and of his mercy toward sinful man. It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest's sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."[6]
It is called the sacrament of Reconciliation, because it imparts to the sinner the live of God who reconciles: "Be reconciled to God."[7] He who lives by God's merciful love is ready to respond to the Lord's call: "Go; first be reconciled to your brother."[8]
Like you said, Salvation is a gift that is given freely. How do you show whether you take it gratefully? How dare we take His mercy lightly! So how do we ‘work out our salvation in fear and trembling’?
The Sacrament of Reconciliation is for one to acknowledge the mercy of God and to repent. And yes, the Sacrament gives us the Grace to resist Sin. We must do Penance in order to be conformed to the image of Christ.
Besides, we do not merely sin against God. Sin has social consequences. The sin may be forgiven, but the damage was already done. You donÂ’t expect towns destroyed during wars to be rebuilt instantaneously after a peace treaty is signed right? No, the people will have to rebuild their town again. Likewise, we must play our part in making restitution to others. -
How does he tell me you are sorry?Originally posted by breytonhartge:With my analogy, it is like this I owe you an apology, but I go to person A to tell him about what I have done to you and to tell him to tell you that I am sorry. Get it?
I don't get it.
-
You don't know what confession or penance is all about.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Take this analogy a little further, supposing I owe you an apology, and I goto A to tell A to tell you that I am sorry, and by the way, I ask A, what do I have to do to clear my conscience? A will then say do this.. and I do it, but when you find out about it, how would you feel? But doing what A said for me to do, may not coincide with what you might want me to do to make it up to you...
so now think about this, if I did somthing wrong or sinned in God's eyes, then would it not be insincere to then go to a priest to tell him what I did wrong and to tell him to tell God that I am sorry? To add insult to injury, we then ask the priest what we should do to clear us of this "temporal sin" as you put it. Which is what confession and penance in the RC church is about.
As mentioned, we not only sin against God, but against the Church and against others. The Priest is hence the authorised representative of the Church to absolve sins. It would not be insincere to confess your sins to a Priest, because that is the way that Christ willed it. He gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins in His name. As a matter of fact, the words of absolution the Priest gives are, "I absolve you of your sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
God gave us Priests to serve us. The Priest is merely performing a service in the name of God. -
article 4 I 1424 [6] It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest's sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:How does the above passage suggest a way of saving yourself by your own effort?
Like you said, Salvation is a gift that is given freely. How do you show whether you take it gratefully? How dare we take His mercy lightly! So how do we ‘work out our salvation in fear and trembling’?
The Sacrament of Reconciliation is for one to acknowledge the mercy of God and to repent. And yes, the Sacrament gives us the Grace to resist Sin. We must do Penance in order to be conformed to the image of Christ.
Besides, we do not merely sin against God. Sin has social consequences. The sin may be forgiven, but the damage was already done. You donÂ’t expect towns destroyed during wars to be rebuilt instantaneously after a peace treaty is signed right? No, the people will have to rebuild their town again. Likewise, we must play our part in making restitution to others.
article 4 VII 1456 Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance
I quoted this to show the point about how wrong it is because it says that it is only when the priest gives you absolution then will you receive God's forgiveness. This makes your forgiveness dependent on a man and not Jesus. God's forgiveness to us in not controlled or conditional upon a mere man forgiving us. It is conditional upon us accepting His Grace and what Jesus did for us. Why is confession to a priest an essential part of our sins being forgiven? The bible clearly states and I have said before that you confess your sins directly to God.
Article 4 V 1437 1437 Reading Sacred Scripture, praying the Liturgy of the Hours and the Our Father - every sincere act of worship or devotion revives the spirit of conversion and repentance within us and contributes to the forgiveness of our sins.
Article 4 V 1438 1438 The seasons and days of penance in the course of the liturgical year (Lent, and each Friday in memory of the death of the Lord) are intense moments of the Church's penitential practice.[36] These times are particularly appropriate for spiritual exercises, penitential liturgies, pilgrimages as signs of penance, voluntary self-denial such as fasting and almsgiving, and fraternal sharing (charitable and missionary works).
If you read this it suggests that “works” can contribute to the forgiveness of our sins, by praying and worship etc… we have our forgiveness by Grace and not by works as rightly suggested here.
Article 4 VI 1441 Only God forgives sins.[39] Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."[40] Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.[41]
The passage starts out by saying only God forgives sin and Jesus has authority to forgive sins, but how then is this jump made so that Jesus gives man the authority to forgive sins? The term here Ths Son of man is a reference to Jesus’ deity. In the bible it says that only God can forgive sins Isaiah 43:25; Mark 2:7. But as the Son of man, Jesus had the power to forgive sins Mark 2:10, When asked by the high priest in Matthew 23:63 whether He was the “Son of God”, He responded affirmatively, declaring that He was the Son of man who would come in power and great glory Matthew 23:64. This indicates that Jesus himself uses the phrase “the Son of man” to indicate His deity as the Son of God.
Lastly, in using the term Son of man Jesus is emphasizing His work in His salvation offered for us. In the OT, the next of kin always functioned as the kinsman redeemer, see Ruth 2:20. Jesus thus by being the Son of man became related to us by blood and therefore could function as our kinsman redeemer and rescue us from sin.
The title here has nothing to do with Jesus or God giving man the authority to forgive sins as the passage in the article of catechism states. Which reminds me that you still have not answered my question about where in the bible does God or Jesus give us or men or priests for that matter the authority to forgive sins. Jesus as the Son of man had this authority because He was both deity and human at the same time, something we are not. 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
You also say in your reply that we must do penance in order to be conformed to the image of Christ, where in the bible is this stated? -
The priest is not authorised by God to forgive sins, so therein lies a heresy. Confessing your sins to a priest is not the way Christ willed it, please show me in the bible where this is stated.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:You don't know what confession or penance is all about.
As mentioned, we not only sin against God, but against the Church and against others. The Priest is hence the authorised representative of the Church to absolve sins. It would not be insincere to confess your sins to a Priest, because that is the way that Christ willed it. He gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins in His name. As a matter of fact, the words of absolution the Priest gives are, "I absolve you of your sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
God gave us Priests to serve us. The Priest is merely performing a service in the name of God.
Mark3:13-15
13Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14He appointed twelve—designating them apostles[b]—that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15and to have authority to drive out demons.
No where in the bible does it say that Jesus gave the apostles the authority or the power to forgive sin. It says He gave them authority over demons, but no authority to forgive sin. He designated them apostles so that He might send them out to preach...
and the exact words of what the priests says is heresy.. I absolve you of your sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. How can he, the priest absolve me of my sin when 1) he does not have the power to do so (1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,) and 2) my sins are already forgiven?
God did not give us priests to serve us, please show me in the bible where this is stated? In the OT, the job of a priest was to serve God and not man. The priest was to attend to God. -
dun think the word "ignore" is appropriate here....Originally posted by Icemoon:since Christ has paid for your sins .. does it mean you can ignore any sins you commit in future?
Romans 6:15 (King James Version) clearly says:
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
----------------------------------
I believe Christians should always be conscious that Christ has paid for our sins. But should he continue to sin because he has god's grace? God forbid. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Was once like u....believing that Christ only paid for one class of sins, but it is not so actually...
[b]IMHO .. Christ has only paid for one class of sins - your sin against the Father.
[b]
Remember what Christ told the pple he has healed b4 he was crucified?
"Your sins are forgiven..." -
2 Corinthians 9:8 (New International Version)
8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.
My opinion is: Good work is only possible as a result of god's grace. Christians should do good work becoz God has first gave his grace to us. Only then this is true faith.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James 1 also says:
22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James 2
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------