Balance between works and faith
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Penance is heretical... the whole thing behind this is that your works are good enough to save you from sin or to gain you atonement for sin?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:it only gets worse if i raise the issue of Penance
Jesus is the perfect sacrifice and the only thing required for you to do is to accept His gift. If you understand who God is and what He is about, your works cannot "atone" for your sin. Even in OT times, the only way for sin to be atoned for is to require a sacrifice. That is why we need Jesus, the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
Also, by saying you need penance, are you then saying that what Christ did for you on the cross is not enough? -
If this does indeed happen, then you would have to check yourself would you not? If you truly understood the gift that was given, you would not dare treat it with such disdain.Originally posted by fallin:Its not what lah. Whenever I sin and ask for forgiveness, I'm afraid I'll take it for granted and slowly slip down the path of cheap grace. -
Sgmacross is a Catholic. If i'm not wrong?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Penance is heretical... the whole thing behind this is that your works are good enough to save you from sin or to gain you atonement for sin?
Jesus is the perfect sacrifice and the only thing required for you to do is to accept His gift. If you understand who God is and what He is about, your works cannot "atone" for your sin. Even in OT times, the only way for sin to be atoned for is to require a sacrifice. That is why we need Jesus, the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
Also, by saying you need penance, are you then saying that what Christ did for you on the cross is not enough?
Chill..... -
Hey MC, not that I am upset or anything, just that there are certain truths in the bible and penance is not one of them. It is then a perversion of the gospel.Originally posted by M©+square:Sgmacross is a Catholic. If i'm not wrong?
Chill.....
It says in the bible you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Where in the bible does it ever talk about penance? -
I understand where you're coming from. I also do not endorse Penance.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Hey MC, not that I am upset or anything, just that there are certain truths in the bible and penance is not one of them. It is then a perversion of the gospel.
It says in the bible you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Where in the bible does it ever talk about penance?
But Catholics includes that as a major doctrine...what to do.
Cheers -
What's the issue about penance?Originally posted by M©+square:I understand where you're coming from. I also do not endorse Penance.
But Catholics includes that as a major doctrine...what to do.
Cheers
Isn't it about confession of sins? Which is a good thing actually.
And contrary to Brey's words, the bible does say something about penance - the part where believers are urged to confess their sins to one another. -
Penance is not just the confession of sins, it is then having to do something like say 10 hail marys or the like for your sins to be forgiven, the whole connotation then is that by your works, you can be forgiven, which is not the case.Originally posted by Icemoon:What's the issue about penance?
Isn't it about confession of sins? Which is a good thing actually.
And contrary to Brey's words, the bible does say something about penance - the part where believers are urged to confess their sins to one another. -
That's a good attitude you have there......being afraid of slipping into cheap grace....true forgiveness experienced by one results into godly fear and not abuse that grace.Originally posted by fallin:Its not what lah. Whenever I sin and ask for forgiveness, I'm afraid I'll take it for granted and slowly slip down the path of cheap grace.
Ps 130:3 If You, LORD, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand?
4 But there is forgiveness with You, That You may be feared.
The truly forgiven or the truly saved person results in the fear of God. -
nothing...................just speak the Bible truth. And Brey's doing that. It's up for SM to accept it or reject it....he's free.Originally posted by M©+square:I understand where you're coming from. I also do not endorse Penance.
But Catholics includes that as a major doctrine...what to do.
Cheers
Jesus did not hide the truth from the Pharisees or to the Saduccees about the way of salvation.....he spoke bluntly about the truth whereever he went. He did not say 'that's part of their doctrine..........what to do?'
We Christians do not care who gets hit by telling the Bible truth. Whether it be the apostle Peter [Gal. 2:11-17] or pastor so and so. When you tell the truth you can never go wrong.
Who will get to know about the free salvation offered in Calvary if we just lay back and shrug our shoulders: "that's their doctrine......we can't do anything about it"
of course, we cannot change them, that's God's part. Our part is to tell and publish the truth whereever we go.
Plus, there are seeking souls here in the forum. Searching for truth. We can't just let error be loose in the air without counteracting it with truth. We also want them to know about the free offer of the gospel. This is our ministry.
Being here is a very strategic point to publish essential Bible truth.
bless you my brother
Somebody said: TRUTH UNITES, ERROR DIVIDES
Eph 4:15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- -
Originally posted by Ironside:
amen!
nothing...................just speak the Bible truth. And Brey's doing that. It's up for SM to accept it or reject it....he's free.
Jesus did not hide the truth from the Pharisees or to the Saduccees about the way of salvation.....he spoke bluntly about the truth whereever he went. He did not say 'that's part of their doctrine..........what to do?'
We Christians do not care who gets hit by telling the Bible truth. Whether it be the apostle Peter [Gal. 2:11-17] or pastor so and so. When you tell the truth you can never go wrong.
Who will get to know about the free salvation offered in Calvary if we just lay back and shrug our shoulders: "that's their doctrine......we can't do anything about it"
of course, we cannot change them, that's God's part. Our part is to tell and publish the truth whereever we go.
Plus, there are seeking souls here in the forum. Searching for truth. We can't just let error be loose in the air without counteracting it with truth. We also want them to know about the free offer of the gospel. This is our ministry.
Being here is a very strategic point to publish essential Bible truth.
bless you my brother
Somebody said: TRUTH UNITES, ERROR DIVIDES
Eph 4:15 but, [b]speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--
[/b] -
SGmacross knows what he's threading on if he mention about it.
That's why he didn't.
Ironside, agreed.
But not all truths unites.
Cheers -
I can see that ironside and laoda has different opinions on whether to pursue the truth or not.Originally posted by M©+square:SGmacross knows what he's threading on if he mention about it.
That's why he didn't.
Ironside, agreed.
But not all truths unites.
Cheers
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It's human, what to do?Originally posted by laurence82:I can see that ironside and laoda has different opinions on whether to pursue the truth or not.
Oops, i did it again.
Cheers -
This is an extremely one sided view without any critical thinking.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Penance is not just the confession of sins, it is then having to do something like say 10 hail marys or the like for your sins to be forgiven, the whole connotation then is that by your works, you can be forgiven, which is not the case.
As I've said many many times, repentance (which is what penance is about basically) has to be followed by works - actions. You don't just say god pls forgive me and expect to be forgiven - while your victim still suffering physically or emotionally due to your sin against him.
I believe RC don't just say 100 hail marys and expect to be forgiven. -
The thing about penance is this, you do good works so that you can be made right with God, never in the bible has this ever been said. You are made right with God through the blood of Jesus only.Originally posted by Icemoon:This is an extremely one sided view without any critical thinking.
As I've said many many times, repentance (which is what penance is about basically) has to be followed by works - actions. You don't just say god pls forgive me and expect to be forgiven - while your victim still suffering physically or emotionally due to your sin against him.
I believe RC don't just say 100 hail marys and expect to be forgiven.
It is because you are already made right with God that you then do the good works. Faith must come first, not works.
As part of the articles of catechism in the part about penance it says that it is only when the priest gives you absolution then will you receive God's forgiveness. This makes your forgiveness dependent on a man and not Jesus. God's forgiveness to us in not controlled or conditional upon a mere man forgiving us. It is conditional upon us accepting His Grace and what Jesus did for us.
Doing penance is doing something which is decided by the priest who "determines" how bad your sin supposedly is... sin, is sin, little sin, big sin, it is all the same to God. It is sin, God does not measure sin. So who gave this man the right to determine the depth of our sin and then set for us the appropriate work to receive our forgiveness? This then makes what Jesus did for us to no effect. If we could work for our forgiveness, then we would not need Jesus. Even in the OT, the Isrealites only atonement and forgiveness for sin was a pure sacrifice. This is God's way and it still has not changed.
In the bible Jesus says, I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law.
It also says that in the articles of catechism, that doing this penance contributes to our forgiveness of our sins. Works have never and will never contribute to the forgiveness of our sin.
The articles of catechism also demand satisfaction, that the sinner "expiate" his sin by doing works. Our sins were already "expiated" when Jesus died for us. -
wah .. brey also become Catholic scholar with his knowledge of the catechism. Impressive.
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Please quote which part of the Cathecism. Thank you.Originally posted by breytonhartge:The thing about penance is this, you do good works so that you can be made right with God, never in the bible has this ever been said. You are made right with God through the blood of Jesus only.
It is because you are already made right with God that you then do the good works. Faith must come first, not works.
As part of the articles of catechism in the part about penance it says that it is only when the priest gives you absolution then will you receive God's forgiveness. This makes your forgiveness dependent on a man and not Jesus. God's forgiveness to us in not controlled or conditional upon a mere man forgiving us. It is conditional upon us accepting His Grace and what Jesus did for us.
Doing penance is doing something which is decided by the priest who "determines" how bad your sin supposedly is... sin, is sin, little sin, big sin, it is all the same to God. It is sin, God does not measure sin. So who gave this man the right to determine the depth of our sin and then set for us the appropriate work to receive our forgiveness? This then makes what Jesus did for us to no effect. If we could work for our forgiveness, then we would not need Jesus. Even in the OT, the Isrealites only atonement and forgiveness for sin was a pure sacrifice. This is God's way and it still has not changed.
In the bible Jesus says, I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law.
It also says that in the articles of catechism, that doing this penance contributes to our forgiveness of our sins. Works have never and will never contribute to the forgiveness of our sin.
The articles of catechism also demand satisfaction, that the sinner "expiate" his sin by doing works. Our sins were already "expiated" when Jesus died for us. -
Let us agree that it is Grace that saves, through faith and works.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Penance is heretical... the whole thing behind this is that your works are good enough to save you from sin or to gain you atonement for sin?
Jesus is the perfect sacrifice and the only thing required for you to do is to accept His gift. If you understand who God is and what He is about, your works cannot "atone" for your sin. Even in OT times, the only way for sin to be atoned for is to require a sacrifice. That is why we need Jesus, the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
Also, by saying you need penance, are you then saying that what Christ did for you on the cross is not enough?
Penance would be useless if not for His sacrifice. The idea of Penance does not make His salvific work redundant. Christ's death and rising opened the gates of heaven, which were closed before He conquered Death. What we must do now, is to walk towards those gates with Him.
And it is not any easy walk. We will fall many times along the way. Penance enables us to learn from our mistakes so that we will not repeat them in future.
I assure you, Penance is necessary. Our Lord asks us to bear crosses in our journey. Christ took away the penalty of eternal hellfire for those who obey His will and accept His work as their Redeemer. But he did not abolish all suffering. Do not forget that we must die to ourselves to be saved by Him.
Indeed, Christ's sacrifice is sufficient. Even a drop of His blood would save the whole world. But we must co-operate with Him through exercising our free will. Are we to ignore the Grace that God bestowed on us? No, that would be the sin of the Pharisees. -
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:
I do not agree. it is faith and not works. Works result from faith and works do not produce faith. Grace saves through faith and never works and works alone never save.
[b]
Let us agree that it is Grace that saves, through faith and works.
Penance would be useless if not for His sacrifice. The idea of Penance does not make His salvific work redundant. Christ's death and rising opened the gates of heaven, which were closed before He conquered Death. What we must do now, is to walk towards those gates with Him.
And it is not any easy walk. We will fall many times along the way. Penance enables us to learn from our mistakes so that we will not repeat them in future.
I assure you, Penance is necessary. Our Lord asks us to bear crosses in our journey. Christ took away the penalty of eternal hellfire for those who obey His will and accept His work as their Redeemer. But he did not abolish all suffering. Do not forget that we must die to ourselves to be saved by Him.
b]
Penance is not necessary, but repentance and a contrite heart. That is the key to the forgiveness of sin. Just because you do penance does not mean one has repented. Penance assumes that you can erase your sin by doing works. This I will say again is not the case.
These may seem like small points, but they are major ones. -
You're the RC, not me... but for your information.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Please quote which part of the Cathecism. Thank you.
Chapter2 article4 I 1424 [6]
Chapter2 article4 V 1437
Chapter2 article4 VII 1456, 1459
Chapter2 article4 Xi...
and the list goes on.... -
Penance does not show that you can erase your sin by doing works. To do Penance is to accept God's grace to live a holy life. To do Penance is to accept the fact that Christ has already paid the price of your iniquity.Originally posted by breytonhartge:I do not agree. it is faith and not works. Works result from faith and works do not produce faith. Grace saves through faith and never works and works alone never save.
Penance is not necessary, but repentance and a contrite heart. That is the key to the forgiveness of sin. Just because you do penance does not mean one has repented. Penance assumes that you can erase your sin by doing works. This I will say again is not the case.
These may seem like small points, but they are major ones.
Thing is, Confession is only for those who have repentant and contrite heart. Those who go in there but do not actually repent are paying mere lip service. They are not only unforgiven, but also sin additionally.
Christ gave priests the authority to forgive sins and He acts through them. All this is only possible because of His death and rising.
Just because you have been forgiven does not mean that you don't have to suffer. It's like if someone goes shoplifting, no matter how sorry he is, he still has to learn from his mistake. He may get off with a light penalty, but nevertheless he has to pay for it somehow. This is the law, and the same applies to the law of God. Like you said, Christ did not come to abolish the law. Justice must still be served, because God is Good and Just. The only thing is, we don't have to suffer the eternal consequences if we repent.
However, we still must suffer the temporal consequences. It's like if we are lazy and don't study for our tests, we cannot ask God to forgive us and let us pass. Yes, He will forgive us, but he wont let us pass the test as a reminder to us. The Penance would then, be to go for remedial classes. -
But if you do not do anything (in other words "suffer" temporarily) .. I doubt your sins will be anything but erased.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Penance assumes that you can erase your sin by doing works. This I will say again is not the case. -
But here you are contradicting what the articles of catechism say. It clearly states that one has to do "work" for the forgiveness of sin. You also then cotradict yourself because you said in your earlier post that salvation was through faith and works.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Penance does not show that you can erase your sin by doing works. To do Penance is to accept God's grace to live a holy life. To do Penance is to accept the fact that Christ has already paid the price of your iniquity.
This statement in itself is also contradictory if Christ has ALREADY paid for your sin, then why do penance? You just have to accept. The punishment has already been carried out.Christ gave priests the authority to forgive sins and He acts through them. All this is only possible because of His death and rising.
Where in the bible is this mentioned?
So if you sin, you go straight to God, why then do you need a human mediator? Even in the bible, Jesus tells us in the Lords prayer... Our Father who art in Heaven... forgive us our sins... striaght to God, not through a priest and then to God.
1 Timothy 2:5 NKJV
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
Cheers -
double post...
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since Christ has paid for your sins .. does it mean you can ignore any sins you commit in future?Originally posted by breytonhartge:This statement in itself is also contradictory if Christ has ALREADY paid for your sin, then why do penance? You just have to accept. The punishment has already been carried out.