Balance between works and faith
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I feel confused. I don't want to be a "cheap-grace" Christian as stated in a previous thread but I yet at the same time I know the absolute importance of salvation by faith. So whats the essential balance between these 2 points.
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like your other brothers, do you believe that faith alone saves?
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Yes I do. Wasnt always this way. But yes I do now.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:like your other brothers, do you believe that faith alone saves? -
Fallin, the balance is this, works as a result of our faith. Faith must always come first. Salvation by faith, but our works shows our faith.
Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
James 2:22
Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? -
so many questions from you.
i really believe you are confused. -
i used to be very confused by this. i mean i know that i'm saved by grace. but i'm always told by people that if i don't do "christian stuff" i won't be blessed by god.
so in the end, alot of things i do, is not out of love, but out of fear, or just do for the sake of doing.
in the end, i just feel burned out, unhappy, frustrated, and not seeing any point of works at all.
it's until there are 2 special ppl who told me, god loves me regardless of what i do, or do not do. god loves me for me. imperfection and all.
my righteousness comes from jesus, not my own works, so even if i screw up, my relationship with god isn't affected. god still sees me as righteous, and blessings come from jesus' righteousness in me
so if i am to do anything, it must be done out of love. love for god, or people.
if its not done out of love, it is meaningless. that's true works =D
i dun hv to feel guilty if i choose not to serve in certain ministry, or anything. because my salvation and relationship with god comes from faith in christ.
but i do serve out of love. and only out of love.
my good works, now, come from the good work god started in me. my character change comes from god's work in me. nothing is on my own willpower.
i don't force myself to change, but god changes me slowly. into a better person!
i feel more liberated, and this is the real victorious christian life! -
If there is a time when I do good works for the sake of "blessing" from God, I think I will have lost the purpose of being a Christian.
I have NEVER EVER asked for reward or blessing for what I have done, be it in the society or in church. I serve because there is a need, more specifically, a need that perhaps only I am willing or able. I also need to know that once that need goes away, I will need to step back and let another servant of the Lord take over. -
Faith hope & love. The greatest of these is love. Without love, whatever we do for God is useless.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i used to be very confused by this. i mean i know that i'm saved by grace. but i'm always told by people that if i don't do "christian stuff" i won't be blessed by god.
so in the end, alot of things i do, is not out of love, but out of fear, or just do for the sake of doing.
in the end, i just feel burned out, unhappy, frustrated, and not seeing any point of works at all.
it's until there are 2 special ppl who told me, god loves me regardless of what i do, or do not do. god loves me for me. imperfection and all.
my righteousness comes from jesus, not my own works, so even if i screw up, my relationship with god isn't affected. god still sees me as righteous, and blessings come from jesus' righteousness in me
so if i am to do anything, it must be done out of love. love for god, or people.
if its not done out of love, it is meaningless. that's true works =D
i dun hv to feel guilty if i choose not to serve in certain ministry, or anything. because my salvation and relationship with god comes from faith in christ.
but i do serve out of love. and only out of love.
my good works, now, come from the good work god started in me. my character change comes from god's work in me. nothing is on my own willpower.
i don't force myself to change, but god changes me slowly. into a better person!
i feel more liberated, and this is the real victorious christian life! -
Yes, Amen Brey.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Fallin, the balance is this, works as a result of our faith. Faith must always come first. Salvation by faith, but our works shows our faith.
Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
James 2:22
Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
We are saved by faith alone but it is not a faith that is alone. Saving faith is a faith that works.
That has been the orthodox theology of the Christian Church for almost 1800 years until advocates of cheap grace [though they don't want to call it that] came into the scene.
Advocates of 'cheap grace' [an error that has been rampant these days] would oppose that statement [in bold] above. Saying that saving faith MAY have works but it is not a necesarry element of it.
They will tell you that a person could be saved and may not manifest a changed life all his life. He can even be an atheist or a Satanist after his conversion but don't worry he is still saved. That is antinomianism revived. It makes our Lord Jesus a minister of sin.
That is not salvation from sin but salvation IN sin. Beware of this heresy my brother. You can see this theology going around today. Doing the Great Commission with a great ommission. They omit the message of repentance in their evangelism.
Where in the message should have been 'Repent and Believe the gospel!!!!!!!!!!!" -
Originally posted by Ironside:
I agree. Antinomianism is twisting God's grace already.
Yes, Amen Brey.
[b]We are saved by faith alone but it is not a faith that is alone. Saving faith is a faith that works.
That has been the orthodox theology of the Christian Church for almost 1800 years until advocates of cheap grace [though they don't want to call it that] came into the scene.
Advocates of 'cheap grace' [an error that has been rampant these days] would oppose that statement [in bold] above. Saying that saving faith MAY have works but it is not a necesarry element of it.
They will tell you that a person could be saved and may not manifest a changed life all his life. He can even be an atheist or a Satanist after his conversion but don't worry he is still saved. That is antinomianism revived. It makes our Lord Jesus a minister of sin.
That is not salvation from sin but salvation IN sin. Beware of this heresy my brother. You can see this theology going around today. Doing the Great Commission with a great ommission. They omit the message of repentance in their evangelism.
Where in the message should have been 'Repent and Believe the gospel!!!!!!!!!!!"
[/b] -
Very curious, heard so much about this phrase "cheap grace", what does this cheap means?
Its cheap to the receiver? or the receiver treated it as cheap/worthless?
btw salvation (ie. grace, cause none of us deserve it) is not cheap, freely given to us, but it cost God His Son. -
Another question, if Men's 'good works' does not add anything to Salvation (God's given grace, through the works of Christ). Does Men's 'bad works' able to substract anything from it?
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Strictly Salvation. No, there is no substraction.Originally posted by vince69:Another question, if Men's 'good works' does not add anything to Salvation (God's given grace, through the works of Christ). Does Men's 'bad works' able to substract anything from it?
Cheers -
so, does this means, after I received the Salvation from God (by Faith in the finished works of Christ). all the things that I do, be it 'good works', 'bad works', or even things I didn't do, even if I don't do anything for God/Church, all these things should not have any effect nor should they able to affect on my salvation?Originally posted by M©+square:Strictly Salvation. No, there is no substraction.
Cheers
If this is the case, then the only reason for me to do anything good, is that God loves me, and its this love from God makes me want to do them.
Then true repentence should therefore also starts from here, that knowing the love of God to me, bring forth a change of heart/attitude with eventually manifest itself in a change in behaviour.
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On salvation. Nothing can affect it.Originally posted by vince69:so, does this means, after I received the Salvation from God (by Faith in the finished works of Christ). all the things that I do, be it 'good works', 'bad works', or even things I didn't do, even if I don't do anything for God/Church, all these things should not have any effect nor should they able to affect on my salvation?
If this is the case, then the only reason for me to do anything good, is that God loves me, and its this love from God makes me want to do them.
Then true repentence should therefore also starts from here, that knowing the love of God to me, bring forth a change of heart/attitude with eventually manifest itself in a change in behaviour.
But there's part 2 - it's called Judgement.
On Para 2, yes agree to much extend.
Only the overwhelming Love of God can compel a believer to have genuine change.
Cheers -
I agree.Originally posted by vince69:so, does this means, after I received the Salvation from God (by Faith in the finished works of Christ). all the things that I do, be it 'good works', 'bad works', or even things I didn't do, even if I don't do anything for God/Church, all these things should not have any effect nor should they able to affect on my salvation?
If this is the case, then the only reason for me to do anything good, is that God loves me, and its this love from God makes me want to do them.
Then true repentence should therefore also starts from here, that knowing the love of God to me, bring forth a change of heart/attitude with eventually manifest itself in a change in behaviour. -
Ah....unker soot Bulleye again.Originally posted by Chin Eng:If there is a time when I do good works for the sake of "blessing" from God, I think I will have lost the purpose of being a Christian.
I have NEVER EVER asked for reward or blessing for what I have done, be it in the society or in church. I serve because there is a need, more specifically, a need that perhaps only I am willing or able. I also need to know that once that need goes away, I will need to step back and let another servant of the Lord take over.
Balance and foundation in Faith and Works is always tested by this word - Servant
Cheers -
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ [His love towards us in salvation] compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;Originally posted by vince69:so, does this means, after I received the Salvation from God (by Faith in the finished works of Christ). all the things that I do, be it 'good works', 'bad works', or even things I didn't do, even if I don't do anything for God/Church, all these things should not have any effect nor should they able to affect on my salvation?
If this is the case, then the only reason for me to do anything good, is that God loves me, and its this love from God makes me want to do them.
Then true repentence should therefore also starts from here, that knowing the love of God to me, bring forth a change of heart/attitude with eventually manifest itself in a change in behaviour.
15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
Ga 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. -
Saving graceOriginally posted by vince69:Very curious, heard so much about this phrase "cheap grace", what does this cheap means?
Its cheap to the receiver? or the receiver treated it as cheap/worthless?
btw salvation (ie. grace, cause none of us deserve it) is not cheap, freely given to us, but it cost God His Son.
You are not good enough [and never will be good enough] to receive it. You are not bad enough [and never will be bad enough] to lose it.
Question: about that last statement: ‘never bad enough and never will be bad enough to lose it’ does it mean then that after I am saved I can live as I please-even to the point of repudiating the faith and embracing Satan as my lord-does it mean that I am still saved?
Cheap grace says :”Yes!!! You are still saved even if you will make Satan as lord of your life and not the Lord Jesus.” Cheap grace is when a person says I am saved and no matter how I live doesn’t change that at all. Even if I turned atheist and curse God all my life till I die.”
Saving grace says: “No. it only reveals your true condition. It means you were never saved in the first place.”
Salvation is being saved from the penalty of sin, the power of sin and ultimately from the presence of sin. PENALTY, POWER AND PRESENCE. Cheap grace is a grace that doesnÂ’t saved from the POWER of sin. ItÂ’s not true salvation.
Though the Lord Jesus ChristÂ’s saving grace is free. It is not cheap. It doesnÂ’t mean that since you are saved-from the penalty of sin which is the lake of fire- that you are now free to sin. That you were given a license to sin. No. Not at all.
True saving grace also changes and sets free the heart so in love with sin. From the enslaving power of sin. It not only saved us from the lake of fire, it also saved us from the lordship of Satan to Christ Lordship.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin [as a lifestyle and a way of life] is a slave of sin.
That is a picture of a person still not saved. He is still not freed from the penalty of sin because he is still not freed from the power of sin.
But- hereÂ’s saving grace talking about freedom from the POWER OF SIN.
Joh 8:36 "Therefore if the Son makes you free [from sin], you shall be free indeed.
Saving grace changes not only your destination-hell. It also changes your heart disposition-from the power of sin. -
Consider this truth from the Bible: All sins of sinners past, present and future were atoned for in Calvary already. And that includes the eternal consequences of your sins. Every ground Christians will tread in heaven for eternity is because of that eternal sacrifice of our Lord.Originally posted by vince69:Another question, if Men's 'good works' does not add anything to Salvation (God's given grace, through the works of Christ). Does Men's 'bad works' able to substract anything from it?
Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
That's why he doesn't need to be sacrificed again and again and again. In a bloody way or in an unbloody way [as R.C.'s claim in their doctrine of the Eucharist]
Now man's problem is sin right? He doesn't go to heaven if he has any single sin left unatoned. But that problem is out already for the Lord dealt with the sin issue 2000 years ago.
NOW WITH ALL THAT....LET US TURN TO YOUR QUESTION.
He died for sins past present and future. So what would your good works do? atone for them? No. Add to that completed atonement or salvation? No.
What would your bad works do? Nothing. it is included in that atonement. It doesn't subtract salvation. It was subtracted by salvation or more precisely eradicated by salvation. In God's eyes Christians are positionally perfect even though they are still in the process of perfection.
So if Christ died for the sins of sinners past present and FUTURE. Why do we still have to confess our sins every time we commit one?
That's another topic already. -
Originally posted by Ironside:
So close to the touchy topic....so close.
Consider this truth from the Bible: All sins of sinners past, present and future were atoned for in Calvary already.
Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins [b]forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
That's why he doesn't need to be sacrificed again and again and again. In a bloody way or in an unbloody way [as R.C.'s claim in their doctrine of the Eucharist]
Now man's problem is sin right? He doesn't go to heaven if he has any single sin left unatoned. But that problem is out already for the Lord dealt with the sin issue 2000 years ago.
He died for sins past present and future. So what would your good works do? atone for them? No. Add to that completed atonement or salvation? No.
What would your bad works do? Nothing. it is included in that atonement. It doesn't subtract salvation. It was subtracted by salvation or more precisely eradicated by salvation. In God's eyes Christians are positionally perfect even though they are still in the process of perfection.
So if Christ died for the sins of sinners past present and FUTURE. Why do we still have to confess our sins every time we commit one?
That's another topic already. [/b]
Cheers -
Its not what lah. Whenever I sin and ask for forgiveness, I'm afraid I'll take it for granted and slowly slip down the path of cheap grace.
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"Freely you have receive, freely give" - Matthew 10:8Originally posted by fallin:I feel confused. I don't want to be a "cheap-grace" Christian as stated in a previous thread but I yet at the same time I know the absolute importance of salvation by faith. So whats the essential balance between these 2 points.
Jesus said the above: do you believe this in your faith for the Lord ?
"Salvation by Faith" - the essence of this statement is Grace - Freely you have received. Jesus asked of us to "Freely give". - So how ?
Of course, we are saved by Faith - Not Works. But then, once Saved - So how ? You are a "New Creation" - remember ? - see 2 Cor 5:17.
And what is "Works" to you ? For me, i believe one of the "good works" close to the heart of God is prayer - prayer for others. -
it only gets worse if i raise the issue of PenanceOriginally posted by M©+square:So close to the touchy topic....so close.
Cheers
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I think that the works that God is calling us to do is not the kind of works that we have been led to believe.
The works that God is calling us to do is actually to keep the commandments. Jesus himself said this:
"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17)
Jesus then proceeds to tell the rich young ruler what the commandments are:
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’[h] and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
This is exactly what the ten commandments are.