2 Tim 2:11-13
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steady la! hahahaOriginally posted by Icemoon: -
I prefer the word "recouncil" with God.Originally posted by pqr:let me shake many of the foundation....
Is it whether God accept you
OR
you accept God?
We have fallen away from God since Adam. The Creator gave us this gift, it's the gift of free will, allowing us to make choices. God had sent His Son, Jesus to come and save, how much more He wants to save us through the Gospel of Christ!
God will forgive us and accept us when we make this choice.
Therefore the choice is your acceptance of God. -
What foundation ? What shake ? Milkshake ?Originally posted by pqr:let me shake many of the foundation....
Is it whether God accept you
OR
you accept God?
God accepted you Perfect and Holy in His eyes through Jesus Christ. Note the past tense ? Done deal. It is Finished !
"Now" - will you accept what God has for you ? -
Wah getting more and more cheem liao.
MC don't understand.....
Cheers -
Might be useful if we try to read the Word - progressively - meaning from line 11 to line 13 - everything is connected to each other. From what i understand, this verse is quoted to Timothy. The "saying" also revolves around the theme of Lord's Great Love for us, and the importance of Discipline.Originally posted by fallin:11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Whats the meaning of this lil passage? Firstly it says that God will disown us under a certain conditon but the following verse says the direct opposite?
According to my understanding:
Verse 12 and 13 are not direct opposites.
If choose Christ, we live with Him in eternal. And if we thus endure the journey (on earth) with Christ, we also rule / lead / follow with Him. But along the way, if we disown Him (like Peter, 3 times), the Lord also forbade us to reign with Him e.g. helping to lead His sheep. Logical since how could the Lord let us reign His kingdom if we disown Him ? Quite congruent to the time after Peter disown Jesus on the Cross. But after Jesus comes back from the dead - and Peter shows repentence, He ask Peter to "Take care of my sheep" (John 21:16) - Now that's God's faithfulness.
Verse 13 wraps up the saying nicely - so even if we are faithless, He will remain faithful - Because that is God - He cannot deny Himself that great Love for us. -
God's time and perspective is all encompassing and eternal. Ours is not.Originally posted by M©+square:Wah getting more and more cheem liao.
MC don't understand.....
Cheers -
Originally posted by klydeer:God's time and perspective is all encompassing and eternal. Ours is not.
Ya.... -
John Calvin's Commentary
2 Timothy
11. A faithful saying. He makes a preface to the sentiment which he is about to utter; because nothing is more opposite to the feeling of the flesh, than that we must die in order to live, and that death is the entrance into life; for we may gather from other passages, that Paul was wont to make use of a preface of this sort, in matters of great importance, or hard to be believed.
If we die with him, we shall also live with him. The general meaning is, that we shall not be partakers of the life and glory of Christ, unless we have previously died and been humbled with him; as he says, that all the elect were
'predestinated that they might be conformed to his image.' (Romans 8:29.)
This is said both for exhorting and comforting believers. Who is not excited by this exhortation, that we ought not to be distressed on account of our afflictions, which shall have so happy a result? The same consideration abates and sweetens all that is bitter in the cross; because neither pains, nor tortures, nor reproaches, nor death ought to be received by us with horror, since in these we share with Christ; more especially seeing that all these things are the forerunners of a triumph.
By his example, therefore, Paul encourages all believers to receive joyfully, for the name of Christ, those afflictions in which they already have a taste of future glory.
If this shocks our belief, and if the cross itself so overpowers and dazzles our eyes, that we do not perceive Christ in them, let us remember to present this shield, 'It is a faithful saying.'
And, indeed, where Christ is present, we must acknowledge that life and happiness are there. We ought, therefore, to believe firmly, and to impress deeply on our hearts, this fellowship, that we do not die apart, but along with Christ, in order that we may afterwards have life in common with him; that we suffer with him, in order that we may be partakers of his glory. By death he means all that outward mortification of which he speaks in 2 Corinthians 4:10. 4
__
12. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
A threatening is likewise added, for the purpose of shaking off sloth; for he threatens that they who, through the dread of persecution, leave off the confession of his name, have no part or lot with Christ.
How unreasonable is it, that we should esteem more highly the transitory life of this world than the holy and sacred name of the Son of God !
And why should he reckon among his people those who treacherously reject him? Here the excuse of weakness is of no value; 5 for, if men did not willingly deceive themselves with vain flatteries, they would constantly resist, being endued with the spirit of strength and courage.
Their base denial of Christ proceeds not only from weakness, but from unbelief; because it is in consequence of being blinded by the allurement of the world, that they do not at all perceive the life which is in the kingdom of God. But this doctrine has more need of being meditated on than of being explained; for the words of Christ are perfectly clear,
"Whoever shall deny me, him will I also deny."
It remains that every one consider with himself, that this is no childish terror, but the judge seriously pronounces what will be found, at the appointed time, to be true.
__
13. If we are unbelieving, he remaineth faithful.
The meaning is, that our base desertion takes nothing from the Son of God or from his glory; because, having everything in himself, he stands in no need of our confession. As if he had said, "Let them desert Christ who will, yet they take nothing from him; for when they perish, he remaineth unchanged."
He cannot deny himself. This is a still stronger expression. "Christ is not like us, to swerve from his truth."
Hence it is evident, that all who deny Christ are disowned by him.
And thus he drives away from wicked apostates the flatteries with which they soothe themselves; because, being in the habit of changing their hue, according to circumstances, they would willingly imagine that Christ, in like manner, assumes various forms, and is liable to change; which Paul affirms to be impossible.
Yet, at the same time, we must firmly believe what I stated briefly on a former passage, that our faith is founded on the eternal and unchangeable truth of Christ, in order that it may not waver through the unsteadfastness or apostasy of men.
__________
Contextual readings is very very very important. -
Well...so much for eternal preservation of the saints.Originally posted by M©+square:John Calvin's Commentary
2 Timothy
11. A faithful saying. He makes a preface to the sentiment which he is about to utter; because nothing is more opposite to the feeling of the flesh, than that we must die in order to live, and that death is the entrance into life; for we may gather from other passages, that Paul was wont to make use of a preface of this sort, in matters of great importance, or hard to be believed.
If we die with him, we shall also live with him. The general meaning is, that we shall not be partakers of the life and glory of Christ, unless we have previously died and been humbled with him; as he says, that all the elect were
'predestinated that they might be conformed to his image.' (Romans 8:29.)
This is said both for exhorting and comforting believers. Who is not excited by this exhortation, that we ought not to be distressed on account of our afflictions, which shall have so happy a result? The same consideration abates and sweetens all that is bitter in the cross; because neither pains, nor tortures, nor reproaches, nor death ought to be received by us with horror, since in these we share with Christ; more especially seeing that all these things are the forerunners of a triumph.
By his example, therefore, Paul encourages all believers to receive joyfully, for the name of Christ, those afflictions in which they already have a taste of future glory.
If this shocks our belief, and if the cross itself so overpowers and dazzles our eyes, that we do not perceive Christ in them, let us remember to present this shield, 'It is a faithful saying.'
And, indeed, where Christ is present, we must acknowledge that life and happiness are there. We ought, therefore, to believe firmly, and to impress deeply on our hearts, this fellowship, that we do not die apart, but along with Christ, in order that we may afterwards have life in common with him; that we suffer with him, in order that we may be partakers of his glory. By death he means all that outward mortification of which he speaks in 2 Corinthians 4:10. 4
__
12. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
A threatening is likewise added, for the purpose of shaking off sloth; for he threatens that they who, through the dread of persecution, leave off the confession of his name, have no part or lot with Christ.
How unreasonable is it, that we should esteem more highly the transitory life of this world than the holy and sacred name of the Son of God !
And why should he reckon among his people those who treacherously reject him? Here the excuse of weakness is of no value; 5 for, if men did not willingly deceive themselves with vain flatteries, they would constantly resist, being endued with the spirit of strength and courage.
Their base denial of Christ proceeds not only from weakness, but from unbelief; because it is in consequence of being blinded by the allurement of the world, that they do not at all perceive the life which is in the kingdom of God. But this doctrine has more need of being meditated on than of being explained; for the words of Christ are perfectly clear,
"Whoever shall deny me, him will I also deny."
It remains that every one consider with himself, that this is no childish terror, but the judge seriously pronounces what will be found, at the appointed time, to be true.
__
13. If we are unbelieving, he remaineth faithful.
The meaning is, that our base desertion takes nothing from the Son of God or from his glory; because, having everything in himself, he stands in no need of our confession. As if he had said, "Let them desert Christ who will, yet they take nothing from him; for when they perish, he remaineth unchanged."
He cannot deny himself. This is a still stronger expression. "Christ is not like us, to swerve from his truth."
Hence it is evident, that all who deny Christ are disowned by him.
And thus he drives away from wicked apostates the flatteries with which they soothe themselves; because, being in the habit of changing their hue, according to circumstances, they would willingly imagine that Christ, in like manner, assumes various forms, and is liable to change; which Paul affirms to be impossible.
Yet, at the same time, we must firmly believe what I stated briefly on a former passage, that our faith is founded on the eternal and unchangeable truth of Christ, in order that it may not waver through the unsteadfastness or apostasy of men.
__________
Contextual readings is very very very important.