2 Tim 2:11-13
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11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Whats the meaning of this lil passage? Firstly it says that God will disown us under a certain conditon but the following verse says the direct opposite? -
11The saying is sure and worthy of confidence: If we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him.
12If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny and disown and reject Him, He will also deny and disown and reject us.
13If we are faithless [do not believe and are untrue to Him], He remains true (faithful to His Word and His righteous character), for He cannot deny Himself.
Same verse, amplified version, maybe this will help you better understand the verse.
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i see this passage as 'You cant choose God, he chose you'
your conduct and behavior and even spiritial maturity cannot contribute to God loving you more or less. He remains faithful...even when u suck -
Dont presume on God's grace too much but i agree that He remains faithful. I think He loves everyone very much. No matter how sinful we are or were. Of course i pray God will choose everyone. But we have to show some repentance bcos when we truly love Someone we try to change for that Someone for the better. Isnt that so for couples or families?Originally posted by NT2:i see this passage as 'You cant choose God, he chose you'
your conduct and behavior and even spiritial maturity cannot contribute to God loving you more or less. He remains faithful...even when u suck 
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Yes, God will disown us if we disown Him. But faithless doesnt mean disowning Him & God cannot disown Himself. So they are not contradictions at all. We CHOOSE WILLINGLY TO DISOWN HIM or own Him & believe Him. But when we have chosen Him He cannot leave us nor forsake us alone when we are faithless. Faithless <> Disown. So stick with Him all right will everyone here?Originally posted by fallin:11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Whats the meaning of this lil passage? Firstly it says that God will disown us under a certain conditon but the following verse says the direct opposite?
But i have one question, does disowning = loss of salvation? Can anyone explain pls? Or disown Him = loss of blessings etc? -
Then I ask, if somebody were to lose his faith or find himself struggling to believe, can verse 14 be applied?
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If we cannot choose God, how to get saved in the first place?Originally posted by NT2:i see this passage as 'You cant choose God, he chose you'
your conduct and behavior and even spiritial maturity cannot contribute to God loving you more or less. He remains faithful...even when u suck
If we dont even want to go to church or listen to Christians so how to be saved hah? So we must choose to listen right no matter how we cant stomach it the first time? Faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. Pls choose to listen to God's Word or Jesus Himself. He is the Word of life. Wonderful words of life! (A hymn)
Then how to choose healing or other blessings from God? Word of faith says speak the Word & u will be healed or blessed. We choose to study God's Bible so can u pls explain? We choose what to read right? -
Verse 14 says and I quote (amplified version)Originally posted by fallin:Then I ask, if somebody were to lose his faith or find himself struggling to believe, can verse 14 be applied?
14Remind [the people] of these facts and [solemnly] charge them in the presence of the Lord to avoid petty controversy over words, which does no good but upsets and undermines the faith of the hearers.
In what circumstances exactly? Please clarify? -
If God doesn't choose you .. can you even be saved?Originally posted by Repented John:If we cannot choose God, how to get saved in the first place?
If we dont even want to go to church or listen to Christians so how to be saved hah? So we must choose to listen right no matter how we cant stomach it the first time? -
Context of this passage:
Paul was writing to young Timothy. This particular portion in chapter 2 may be part of a popular hymn, or a popular saying. Note the sudden change of style from a narrative, instructional writing to a poetic paragraphing. Whether the passage has any deeper meaning, I leave it up to the reader. -
let me shake many of the foundation....Originally posted by Icemoon:If God doesn't choose you .. can you even be saved?
Is it whether God accept you
OR
you accept God? -
Oops I mean verse 13.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Verse 14 says and I quote (amplified version)
14Remind [the people] of these facts and [solemnly] charge them in the presence of the Lord to avoid petty controversy over words, which does no good but upsets and undermines the faith of the hearers.
In what circumstances exactly? Please clarify? -
No need for you to shake la....Originally posted by pqr:let me shake many of the foundation....
Is it whether God accept you
OR
you accept God?
In every 3 to 5 threads. This issue always appears directly or indirectly.
Cheers -
Tricky question .. or rather your usage of "accept" is inappropriate.Originally posted by pqr:let me shake many of the foundation....
Is it whether God accept you
OR
you accept God?
Accept connotates an action on your part. So it implies you make the first move. -
why is it inapproiate?Originally posted by Icemoon:Tricky question .. or rather your usage of "accept" is inappropriate.
Accept connotates an action on your part. So it implies you make the first move.
there are many preaching that goes 'accept christ and u shall be saved' -
Let me add in this separate reply to boost rating.Originally posted by pqr:Is it whether God accept you
OR
you accept God?
Both are wrong. God dun accept you 'cos He made the first move. You don't accept God 'cos that's just not our nature to do so.
Oh no .. I'm threading on dangerous grounds. -
Look at the big picture. Do you think salvation is so trivial and depends on your yes or no?Originally posted by pqr:why is it inapproiate?
there are many preaching that goes 'accept christ and u shall be saved'
Clearly there are hidden forces at play. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:Look at the big picture. Do you think salvation is so trivial and depends on your yes or no?
Clearly there are hidden forces at play.
Wah!!! Tell me more leh!!!
Cheers -
if a person say no, u think he / she can be saved?Originally posted by Icemoon:Do you think salvation is so trivial and depends on your yes or no?
Clearly there are hidden forces at play. -
God accepted us in our sinful stated through the blood of Christ,Originally posted by pqr:let me shake many of the foundation....
Is it whether God accept you
OR
you accept God?
We accepted God into our hearts as our sovereign. -
verse 12 is similar to :Originally posted by fallin:11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Whats the meaning of this lil passage? Firstly it says that God will disown us under a certain conditon but the following verse says the direct opposite?
Mt 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
Peter denied the Lord before men three times. Why was he still restored and not deneid by the Lord?
This is where the great doctrine of TULIP comes in. the letter P part. Preservation of God/ PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS.
The tense of the verb 'deny' is in the aorist tense. Aorist tense sometimes connotes finality and permanence. The Lord is therefore saying: 'Whoever denies me completely and permanently I will also deny before My Father'
Peter's fall unlike Judas was not final as seen in his repentance. Often times Christians lapse into carnality and sin.
In Timothy, the tense of the verb 'deny' or 'disown' is present tense and the mood is indicative. Present tense is an action that is continuing [not a one time event] and progressing. The indicative tense signify certainty.
Do you think a professing Christian who denies the Lord in his life [either verbally or in his actions] continually and progressively all throughout his life is a genuine Christian?
The indicative mood signify certainty. Anyone who denies the Lord [who is certain in his heart that the Lord is not the Savior] is not a Christian.
The word faithless in the next verse is not the same as denying the Lord. It means unbelieving. REmember Thomas?
Joh 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
Was Thomas a Christian? Yes. Did he experienced unbelief temporarily? yES.
dID THE Lord deny him? NO
Sometimes we fall into sin and carnality. The Lord remains faithful to us. Like a father who is faithful and patient with his rebelious son. But to deny the Lord completely and permanently is something else. It is indicative of an unconverted heart. -
May I ask that you elaborate on this TULIP doctrine?Originally posted by Ironside:verse 12 is similar to :
Mt 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
Peter denied the Lord before men three times. Why was he still restored and not deneid by the Lord?
This is where the great doctrine of TULIP comes in. the letter P part. Preservation of God/ PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS.
The tense of the verb 'deny' is in the aorist tense. Aorist tense sometimes connotes finality and permanence. The Lord is therefore saying: 'Whoever denies me completely and permanently I will also deny before My Father'
Peter's fall unlike Judas was not final as seen in his repentance. Often times Christians lapse into carnality and sin.
In Timothy, the tense of the verb 'deny' or 'disown' is present tense and the mood is indicative. Present tense is an action that is continuing [not a one time event] and progressing. The indicative tense signify certainty.
Do you think a professing Christian who denies the Lord in his life [either verbally or in his actions] continually and progressively all throughout his life is a genuine Christian?
The indicative mood signify certainty. Anyone who denies the Lord certainly [either verbally or through deeds] is not a Christian. -
You say no now .. maybe in future you say yes?Originally posted by pqr:if a person say no, u think he / she can be saved? -
This is a cool link .. everyone checks this out!Originally posted by fallin:May I ask that you elaborate on this TULIP doctrine?
TULIP