Unbelieving loved ones
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It doesn't really matter how the other end thinks.Originally posted by laoda99:You should know the discussion here usually comes to a point of merely wanting to win in the debate. I believe some unbelievers who come here to take "pot shots" at Christians simply have an axe to grind with Christians.
Many unbelievers thought all Christians are naive and do not have sound knowledge about Christianity. They are wrong.
One may have all the knowledge about the faith, but if he use it simply to attack Christians just to show that he is knowledgeable and Christians are naive, what difference are they from the "Christians" they accused of arrogance? Everyone can use scripture for their own ends, even Satan.
One may win an argument here, but it isn't going to get him saved. Only Christ can redeem us, not faithless knowledge.
It all matters when a believer knows that after the whole debate. He've learnt something.
It's always about the attitude. Right attitude to debate brings respect and praise even from enemies. -
Give the unbelievers ample time to give thought in what a good christian might debate about and let the good attitude show forth the attributes of God.
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laoda, cant help if you have the mindset that unbelievers would come here only to flame
its equally important one try, if not to know, what christianity is exactly about and lay the stuff on the table for everyone to see
with consistency, precise meaning and fully understood the consequences of making certain statements or facts
seriously, i dont understand this angst against debates, pushing it aside as time wasting
i see it as a good opportunity to know how much you know, how much you dont know, and how much grey area there are
personally, trying to shrug it all off is a kind of obstruction to finding out what god really want you to do and what is your role in this conundrum -
ah....u sound more reasonable now. We can talk =)Originally posted by laurence82:laoda, cant help if you have the mindset that unbelievers would come here only to flame
its equally important one try, if not to know, what christianity is exactly about and lay the stuff on the table for everyone to see
with consistency, precise meaning and fully understood the consequences of making certain statements or facts
seriously, i dont understand this angst against debates, pushing it aside as time wasting
i see it as a good opportunity to know how much you know, how much you dont know, and how much grey area there are
personally, trying to shrug it all off is a kind of obstruction to finding out what god really want you to do and what is your role in this conundrum
Do u think Christians have all the answers to ur "challenging" questions? I personally do not think so. Christians are not God. We do not have all the answers. Many of us are also learning about the faith but we dun mind sharing.
But wait, look at some of the"flaming" posts here, do u think christians are trying to shrug them off? All I can see is when the mod and some sincere christians here are trying to explain things to the best of their abilities, some unbelievers just brush them aside and ridicule them, say that they are naive and then all types of abuses come in.
When believers defend the faith, they are deemed as "arrogant". When non-believers attack Christians for their faith, this is "intellectual discourse".
This is unfair. I believe some non-believers should reflect on their behaviour,
I challenge some "ambiguous" ones to state their faith and say what they believe in, before they try to have some "fun" here.
One may win in "intellectual discourse", but still do not know Christ. -
I recommend www.stephentong.orgOriginally posted by askxyz:Don't know leh. Seems like there are leh...
Maybe I'm wrong ba?
Christians who apply critical thinking don't roam around in EH? Maybe some christian forumers don't want to waste time here? Or some don't be bother? -
Evangelising do not help a Christian gain merits. It does not make him more favourable in God's eyes.Originally posted by laurence82:This is crap. If we choose to be non believers, you will stop evangelising? You will stop harping on this issue? There wont be such a topic on what will happen to non believers and all that? It is what you will possibly think, and more importantly say and act upon when you know there are non believers. You can promise that there will no likes of JTB who defiled the reputations and characters of the tsunami or Pakistani earthquake victims?
Why do Christians evangelise? For whose sake? For fun/to show superiority? -
I agree with u. I also read abt Arminian and Calvinist theory in the past, but all I know now is Christ is my redeemer. This is the most important theology.Originally posted by breytonhartge:God sees the heart. I am not the final judge. I believe only in the sovereignty of God. While I understand where you are coming from MC, there are more important things at hand than debating differing points of theology. Theology is man made, all the arguments that come from the arminian's or the calvinist's are all flawed because they stem from human understanding. My question to you then is this, since we all know that Jesus is also the word become flesh among us, then what does Jesus say? If you can answer this question, you then will have your answer. -
good for you once again.Originally posted by laoda99:I agree with u. I also read abt Arminian and Calvinist theory in the past, but all I know now is Christ is my redeemer. This is the most important theology. -
Sometimes, when i see a post with first line like that, how do you expect me to think christians are also not sarcastic, are objective and want to present a good argument?Originally posted by laoda99:ah....u sound more reasonable now. We can talk =)
Do u think Christians have all the answers to ur "challenging" questions? I personally do not think so. Christians are not God. We do not have all the answers. Many of us are also learning about the faith and we dun mind sharing.
But wait, look at some of the"flaming" posts here, do u think christians are trying to shrug them off? All I can see is when the mod and some sincere christians here are trying to explain things to the best of their abilities, some unbelievers just brush them aside and ridicule them, say that they are naive and all types of abuses come in, and when believers defend the faith, they are deemed as "arrogant".
This is unfair.
Defend the faith? Seriously, i am on the point of begging christians not to use 'defending the faith' as a excuse whenever there is a slip up in their argument.
You, me and almost everyone else here used to be or are in the academia. We know its equally important that whatever you present fits. Its also important to weigh the consequences of any findings you present.
Take the recent case with brey for example. I highlighted many things - improper quoting of original source, neglecting to view the context in which the stuff is written in
There are other things i would add on, but its pretty useless to do that by the time i got to that point
Look at this thread, its a flamebait, just as you said it. It elicit the sort of responses that would have been expected. Tear away all the niceties, it still touches on who will go to hell and who will not. On my part, I did not argue whether christianity is wrong on this. What i have been saying was, we all know the answers. So why is such topics blatantly repeated, discussed and not exercised with caution?
I should have added that its also the mods responsibilty to keep a tight rein on topics regarding non believers.
Unfair? Seriously, to be fair, I think the non believers do have the right to respond to any topic of such nature. And, really, arrogance would not be the word i choose to describe some christians sometimes. In denial would be a be a better phrase. Now, this does not describe all.I only meant for those whom i observed how they respond to strong arguments. -
Do you wish to represent the community of Christians and make a stand for all of them, that in all works they do. They did it with pure heart and only to save souls?Originally posted by laoda99:Evangelising do not help a Christian gain merits. It does not make him more favourable in God's eyes.
Why do Christians evangelise? For whose sake? For fun/to show superiority? -
First of all, I personally do not believe the one who started this thread is a christian.Originally posted by laurence82:Sometimes, when i see a post with first line like that, how do you expect me to think christians are also not sarcastic, are objective and want to present a good argument?
Defend the faith? Seriously, i am on the point of begging christians not to use 'defending the faith' as a excuse whenever there is a slip up in their argument.
You, me and almost everyone else here used to be or are in the academia. We know its equally important that whatever you present fits. Its also important to weigh the consequences of any findings you present.
Take the recent case with brey for example. I highlighted many things - improper quoting of original source, neglecting to view the context in which the stuff is written in
There are other things i would add on, but its pretty useless to do that by the time i got to that point
Look at this thread, its a flamebait, just as you said it. It elicit the sort of responses that would have been expected. Tear away all the niceties, it still touches on who will go to hell and who will not. On my part, I did not argue whether christianity is wrong on this. What i have been saying was, we all know the answers. So why is such topics blatantly repeated, discussed and not exercised with caution?
I should have added that its also the mods responsibilty to keep a tight rein on topics regarding non believers.
Unfair? Seriously, to be fair, I think the non believers do have the right to respond to any topic of such nature. And, really, arrogance would not be the word i choose to describe some christians sometimes. In denial would be a be a better phrase. Now, this does not describe all.I only meant for those whom i observed how they respond to strong arguments.
Secondly, non-believers keep insisting on "answers" while I believe Breyton and Ironside have given their best answers. To me, they already tried their best. They are sincere. But all they get is ridicule.
I do not believe anyone, not even the best theological professor, can give u the answer u and mcsquare want.
Thirdly, if one knows that he is going to hell but refuse to believe in it, then this is true denial. -
Then what do u think they do it for?Originally posted by M©+square:Do you wish to represent the community of Christians and make a stand for all of them, that in all works they do. They did it with pure heart and only to save souls?
If u are disillusioned with organised religion or christians, it is ok.
Just dun get disillusioned with GOD and lose faith. -
Where got "best of their abilities"?Originally posted by laoda99:But wait, look at some of the"flaming" posts here, do u think christians are trying to shrug them off? All I can see is when the mod and some sincere christians here are trying to explain things to the best of their abilities, some unbelievers just brush them aside and ridicule them, say that they are naive and then all types of abuses come in.
The last time I remember, Brey has not apologised for defaming Einstein. -
Look in this thread. See what they write. Dun deviate.Originally posted by Icemoon:Where got "best of their abilities"?
The last time I remember, Brey has not apologised for defaming Einstein. -
You see i just asked you a straightforward question.Originally posted by laoda99:Then what do u think they do it for?
But you diverted away from it and counter question me.
I know what are the possible thoughts in those Evangelising Christians and i'm not sure if what you've believe in Evangelism is a personal conviction or you have assumed all Christians think your way? -
SIS has not even written yet ..Originally posted by laoda99:Look in this thread. See what they write. Dun deviate. -
Outcome expected: He would not have good things to write.Originally posted by Icemoon:SIS has not even written yet .. -
Let's extract what was debated last few nights ago and we shall reason it out.Originally posted by laoda99:Look in this thread. See what they write. Dun deviate. -
Those who've written are not troublemakers to begin with. At least we don't take potshots and siam the scene.Originally posted by laoda99:Outcome expected: He would not have good things to write. -
Why have I not answered? To me, most Christians are doing it for a good cause, and it is not even for their own benefit. Are u telling me that christian missionaries who risk their lives and properties in hostile countries are not doing it out of goodwill? U have been in church b4 and u should know what kind of dangers these people faced, but they still do it. Are u telling me they do it out of a impure heart and not out of love for GOD/others?Originally posted by M©+square:You see i just asked you a straightforward question.
But you diverted away from it and counter question me.
I know what are the possible thoughts in those Evangelising Christians and i'm not sure if what you've believe in Evangelism is a personal conviction or you have assumed all Christians think your way?
Do u also assume most Christians do it for ulterior motives? If so, what do they stand to gain? -
It still does not take away any non believers right to respondOriginally posted by laoda99:Evangelising do not help a Christian gain merits. It does not make him more favourable in God's eyes.
Why do Christians evangelise? For whose sake? For fun/to show superiority?
What is perplexing to me, is not that christians evangelise, but the fact christians do not think non believers should respond because they (the christians) have good intentions
Now, this doesnt make sense. Intention does not necessarily have a absolute postive correlation with methods or actions.
Again, i reiterate my explaination that the other guy have his own beliefs -ie, his faith does not believe in god, or do not believe in jesus for most of the faiths etc etc
If you realise, by preaching to him things like jesus is the only way and all that, thats injurious to his belief. This is what i mean by not weighing the consequences of your actions.
Do you realise, how frustrating it is for non believers to listen to preaching and conversion attempts sometimes? Its kinda warped, knowing one group always want to impose their ideals on people, and not expecting any opposition. Your intention, if you realise, need not be necessarily good if carried out with inapporpriate actions. -
Good for u. I already stated that is your pasah. Your right to refuse. Nobody will force u to believe.Originally posted by laurence82:Again, i reiterate my explaination that the other guy have his own beliefs -ie, his faith does not believe in god, or do not believe in jesus for most of the faiths etc etc
If you realise, by preaching to him things like jesus is the only way and all that, thats injurious to his belief. This is what i mean by not weighing the consequences of your actions.
Do you realise, how frustrating it is for non believers to listen to preaching and conversion attempts sometimes? Its kinda warped, knowing one group always want to impose their ideals on people, and not expecting any opposition. Your intention, if you realise, need not be necessarily good if carried out with inapporpriate actions.
U can just walk away or slam the door if u want. I did it b4.
Or did u tried arguing with them?
Nevertheless, this is a Christian forum. It is different from evangelising door to door. A non-believer comes to a Christian forum to learn abt Christ out of his own accord. He cannot say that Christians are forcing their beliefs on him here.
Rather, I would think the non-believer who come here to have "fun" e.g. the shady one who insist GOD has different names, is forcing his views on believers. -
Look, do you realise what you are saying? You are the one who have to evangelise, you have to provide the answers. You have to do something to lead the non believers to god isnt it? You cant be telling us to believe in god and jesus and leave everything else hanging, do you?Originally posted by laoda99:First of all, I personally do not believe the one who started this thread is a christian.
Secondly, non-believers keep insisting on "answers" while I believe Breyton and Ironside have given their best answers. To me, they already tried their best. They are sincere. But all they get is ridicule.
I do not believe anyone, not even the best theological professor, can give u the answer u and mcsquare want.
Thirdly, if one knows that he is going to hell but refuse to believe in it, then this is true denial.
Actually, your last sentence...doesnt really make sense. Either he believe, or he dont. -
If you're going to argue in terms of missionaries then we are talking about specialised duty/job/occupation. I cannot doubt their intentions because other than having been a Missionary as a job, it is a calling, ordained by God. They have their lives just to call people back to God and spreading the gospel.Originally posted by laoda99:Why have I not answered? To me, most Christians are doing it for a good cause, and it is not even for their own benefit. Are u telling me that christian missionaries who risk their lives and properties in hostile countries are not doing it out of goodwill? U have been in church b4 and u should know what kind of dangers these people faced, but they still do it. Are u telling me they do it out of a impure heart?
Do u also assume most Christians do it for ulterior motives? If so, what do they stand to gain?
They are Called by God to Evangelise. A full time ministry.
What i'm referring to is Christians in general. Those who have Christianity as a belief yet still have their job to feed their families.
These category of Christians will have to deal with work, family, friends, life, spouse, church ministries and evangelising.
You tell me now have you answered my question?
Are you willing to tell me that ALL Christians conduct Evangelism with pure intent?
Very simple question. Are you willing. Yes or no. That's all. -
You are very sly. There're clearly two different points in your argument and you wanted us to believe there is only one.Originally posted by laoda99:Why have I not answered? To me, most Christians are doing it for a good cause, and it is not even for their own benefit. Are u telling me that christian missionaries who risk their lives and properties in hostile countries are not doing it out of goodwill? U have been in church b4 and u should know what kind of dangers these people faced, but they still do it. Are u telling me they do it out of a impure heart and not out of love for GOD/others?
Do u also assume most Christians do it for ulterior motives? If so, what do they stand to gain?
Are most Christians missionaries?