Original Sin (Of Angels and Man)
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Again like what laurence says, internet source...Originally posted by Icemoon:Einstein said the following two quotes:
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly"
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."
These are famous quotes, not some ulu ulu statements pulled out from dubious sources.
Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Religious_views -
Dont use my name lar
You cant even prove your original quote as true, not even a website source.
The singular point abt using sources abt the internet, as i said way back, is anyone can use the net to their advantage without the necessary check ups.
Now that me and icemoon had searched for the data, which i also did on several webbies, i can post if you like, where is yours?
Again, stop skirting the issue and answer the question, which i asked way back this morning i believe. -
already answered, i believe unless you cannot read...Originally posted by laurence82:Dont use my name lar
You cant even prove your original quote as true, not even a website source.
The singular point abt using sources abt the internet, as i said way back, is anyone can use the net to their advantage without the necessary check ups.
Now that me and icemoon had searched for the data, which i also did on several webbies, i can post if you like, where is yours?
Again, stop skirting the issue and answer the question, which i asked way back this morning i believe. -
Actually it is true. I have done quit some research on Albert Einstein's views on religion and God. He did not believed in a personal God.Originally posted by breytonhartge: -
Clarify on which?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Please clarify... -
i was hoping for more than an email. The website state that such quotes were sent thru emails, meaning no original source can be found rite?Originally posted by breytonhartge:already answered, i believe unless you cannot read...
Duh -
I think this time, i am seriously pissed.
First thing is the injuries done to a person of reputation, and to his stance, which he held strongly to, in my opinion. Its akin to lying.
Second is the consequences of posting a original Christian made up story, put in AE's name, and present it to everyone. In terms of evangelism, it gain a persuasive power. Consequences? Not only it leads to people finding a god, but Christian definitions of a god mired up in this whole mess.
To this, i say sheesh! -
Let me try to summarize your points. (Of which i think the verses are mis-quoted)Originally posted by M©+square:Okie can we agree on this?
'evil is the result of what happens when a man does not have God's love present in his heart.'
What you're saying is
1)When a man does not have God's Love in his heart, what he does is evil?
John 7:7 (King James Version)
7The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
Hebrews 3:12-13
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
2)Define God's love present in his heart?
A pre-believer or believer will have God's love in his heart?
1 John 4:2-16
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
3)What qualifies God's Love present in a man's heart?
1 John 4:17-21
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19We love him, because he first loved us.
20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
1 John 2:5-6 (New International Version)
5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love[a] is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
I suggest we'll get this clear before we move on.
Cheers
1) Apart from being a Believer. All things and actions are evil?
2) Apart of being accept by God, men have no way of knowing what love is.
3) Only a believer do not see or conduct evil since 'goodness of God is present, so evil is absent'
Only non believers experience evil doings and have evil conducts?
Am i right in clarifying the 3 points above?
The biblical quotes are quite off point, i do not have any interest to attack the word. I suggest that you answer in your own words. -
Relax. Go and have a walk and drink water.Originally posted by laurence82:I think this time, i am seriously pissed.
First thing is the injuries done to a person of reputation, and to his stance, which he held strongly to, in my opinion. Its akin to lying.
Second is the consequences of posting a original Christian made up story, put in AE's name, and present it to everyone. In terms of evangelism, it gain a persuasive power. Consequences? Not only it leads to people finding a god, but Christian definitions of a god mired up in this whole mess.
To this, i say sheesh! -
It didnt piss me off before, now it does.Originally posted by M©+square:Relax. Go and have a walk and drink water.
People are implying that i am just troublemaking, but look at them, putting up stories that dont fit, statements they barely know or understand the consequences.
When pointed out the holes and lack of consistency, the issue was skirted.
I am making troubles? Gee
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Lau. I got eyes to see la.Originally posted by laurence82:It didnt piss me off before, now it does.
People are implying that i am just troublemaking, but look at them, putting up stories that dont fit, statements they barely know or understand the consequences.
When pointed out the holes and lack of consistency, the issue was skirted.
I am making troubles? Gee
But you must remember you're in a Christian forum.
Though you may be right, they still have got to defend their beliefs. Though i must admit that sometimes they know that there are flaws they will not back down, instead try to steer off the arguement. Yes you have said it right 'skirted'. Very weak.
But what to do? It's their belief and what they hold fast to.
If they lose the arguement which they do not have the capacity to debate, very Mah Lu.
Sometimes i wonder if it's about God or about defending their knowledge, making a point and winning a debate.
Cheers to Christian forum. -
Brey has given Christians a bad name. Shows that he can't think critically.Originally posted by laurence82:i was hoping for more than an email. The website state that such quotes were sent thru emails, meaning no original source can be found rite?
Duh
Lucky SIS not here. Or he'll machine gun brey to shreads. -
MC, I dont agree that its all about defending the faith or belief. Most of the issues or flames are concerned with presenting a very inconsistent 'holey' knowledge of Christianity. Its not about right or wrong doctrine or theology. Its more of how one present it, how one consistently present it, how one not anyhow use whatever materials to support one's ideas or to gain advantage, how to present it in a manner in full knowledge of the consequences.Originally posted by M©+square:Lau. I got eyes to see la.
But you must remember you're in a Christian forum.
Though you may be right, they still have got to defend their beliefs. Though i must admit that sometimes they know that there are flaws they will not back down, instead try to steer off the arguement. Yes you have said it right 'skirted'. Very weak.
But what to do? It's their belief and what they hold fast to.
If they lose the arguement which they do not have the capacity to debate, very Mah Lu.
Sometimes i wonder if it's about God or about defending their knowledge, making a point and winning a debate.
Cheers to Christian forum. -
I agree. That's why there are times when SIS posted sensible issues i supported him!Originally posted by Icemoon:Brey has given Christians a bad name. Shows that he can't think critically.
Lucky SIS not here. Or he'll machine gun brey to shreads. -
Lau, i gave them(particularly a handful)the benefit of doubt.Originally posted by laurence82:MC, I dont agree that its all about defending the faith or belief. Most of the issues or flames are concerned with presenting a very inconsistent 'holey' knowledge of Christianity. Its not about right or wrong doctrine or theology. Its more of how one present it, how one consistently present it, how one not anyhow use whatever materials to support one's ideas or to gain advantage, how to present it in a manner in full knowledge of the consequences.
Which was why i voiced out that some people do not have the capacity to handle certain topics/religious issues but yet tried to argue their way through, even though it is obvious they are losing it.
To me admitance to lost or ignorance brings forth great respect... -
Hey bro, glad you folks stay up late (or early).... I'd written almost the same thing too.Originally posted by M©+square:Let me try to summarize your points. (Of which i think the verses are mis-quoted)
1) Apart from being a Believer. All things and actions are evil?
2) Apart of being accept by God, men have no way of knowing what love is.
3) Only a believer do not see or conduct evil since 'goodness of God is present, so evil is absent'
Only non believers experience evil doings and have evil conducts?
Am i right in clarifying the 3 points above?
The biblical quotes are quite off point, i do not have any interest to attack the word. I suggest that you answer in your own words.
Yes, good is a relative term. In light of that (and in Matt 19:17) then NONE is good, so can we safely conclude that nothing that you and I had ever done (before we accepted Christ) is good, or alternatively, everything we have done from that point of acceptance is good? So obviously, we may have talking about different definition of what "GOOD" is.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Good is a relative term, how do you define the definition of good? According to men or according to God?
Psalm 53:1-3
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
2God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Matthew 19:17 (King James Version) also Mark 10:18 & Luke 18:19
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Also in light of this definition, than can we safely conclude that we should all stop telling others to help the needy, support the poor and console the widows - unless these people has accepted Christ?
On 1 Jn 4 - yes only a couple of verses talked about false prophets, the rest talks about love.
CE, of the whole passage only one verse talks about false prophets... read the passage carefully.
On Einstein -
We can all agree that none of the quotations are provable. If none of the testimonies given are verifiable, it is better not to use them. Does it matter? 
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Link to source Einstein Proves That God Exists in a Confrontation with a Professor-Fiction!
Further reads http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp
Summary of the eRumor
This is an account of a classroom encounter between young Albert Einstein and a professor who was arguing that the Christian faith is a myth.
Einstein argues that evil is the absence of God in the same way that darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat.
The Truth
There is no evidence that this exchange ever took place.
This eRumor has circulated without Einstein's name and someone added it to a version that started circulating in the summer of 2004.
Also, it is not likely that young Einstein would have presented this argument.
In his Autobiographical Notes, he states that even though his Jewish family was not religious, he developed a "deep religiosity" as Jewish child that came to an end when he was 12.
He says he developed a skeptical attitude that never left him.
He made reference to "God" on many occasions but also said he did not believe some of the stories in the Bible and did not believe in a personal God. -
Morning bro,Originally posted by Chin Eng:Hey bro, glad you folks stay up late (or early).... I'd written almost the same thing too.
I can't help it, after seeing mis-quotes. I got to write back.
Cheers -
My last post on this topic.
Yes anyone can use the internet to back up their claims... all of us do it. Lau, I don't see how I skirted the topic, I told you where I got my source from, I cannot do anymore or anyless than that. I do not see the need for you to get pissed off? What is the point? But if you want to be go ahead, be my guest, dosenÂ’t bother me.
If I have given Christians a bad name, then all I can say to my fellow bro and sis in Christ is sorry. I live by faith and not critical thinking. As a Christian that is what our walk with God is about. It is actually easier for a person to critical think than to live by faith. I have done enough critical thinking in my opinion to know that it serves no purpose, this forum shows that so well, you go round and round and round. MC, Icemoon, Laurence, where has all this critical thinking gotten you? Yes you have proven you can argue well and that you have a host of knowledge about theology. I confess, I donÂ’t. But Jesus was exactly against this, he rebuked the Pharisees time and time again for their legalism and theology. In the end, your theology is not going to save you, Faith is. So on this point consider it a win for you. It was never about winning or loosing but presenting a differing view point. The important thing to get is God's wisdom and get discernment.
Yes CE, about albert einstein.. .who gives a .... dosen't bother me either way, but i was just using that to show something else. Yes, a person outside of God can do good in his own sight, but may not do good in God's sight and that is the sad truth. If may can do good without God, then man does not need God. Even Jesus had the humility to say that no one is good but my father. So what makes us better than Jesus?
CE, everything from the point of acceptance may not be good because we may not have followed the prompting of the Lord. My definition of good has always been based on what God would consider good. Not menÂ’s definition of good. You should know your bible well, it says also that in that day many will come and say Lord, Lord, did we not do this and that in your nameÂ… but He will say away with you evil doers, I never knew you.
John 6:29 (Amplified Bible)
29Jesus replied, This is the work (service) that God asks of you: that you believe in the One Whom He has sent [that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger].
MC,
1) Apart from being a Believer. All things and actions are evil?
Not true, a believer can still choose to do things that are evil.
2)Apart of being accept by God, men have no way of knowing what love is.
True. God is love, so if man does not know God how can he know what love is? Our human ideal of “love” is so far off what God is that you just cannot bridge the gap.
3) Only a believer do not see or conduct evil since 'goodness of God is present, so evil is absent' Only non believers experience evil doings and have evil conducts?
Not true, a believer can still choose to conduct evil. Being a believer also does not exempt you from evil doings, but we have the protection of the almighty and He will turn what was intended for evil to good. That is our assurance.
Disagree that the biblical quotes are off point, I suggest that you reflect on them in your free time. If you think they are, please post up some that you think are on point so I can meditate on them too!
In Christ.
Brey -
Sheesh, you've done something that amounts to slander. Have the guts to stand up and admit it, rather than leading yourself into greater denial and shrugging it all off.
You have churn up something from the email, which three of us at least have proven otherwise, to the point of check mulitple websites for clarifications. Something that you cannot even pinpoint the source for credibility.
You insist its the words. Again, I have said for the umpteenth time the consequences of posting things and not deriving the meaning from the author point of views. And the author is also proven to be fake.
Do everyone and yourself a favour - stop wrapping yourself in denial and stop treating everyone else like fools.
For a moderator, this is totally unbecoming. -
Sheesh .. you've put the Lord's name in shame. You've let your school teachers down. If you're a graduate, you wasted your money on tertiary education.Originally posted by breytonhartge:If I have given Christians a bad name, then all I can say to my fellow bro and sis in Christ is sorry. I live by faith and not critical thinking.
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The important thing to get is God's wisdom and get discernment.
Get God's wisdom? I think you're not even 1% there yet. God don't give each of us a brain for nothing. Discernment? You can't even discern a simple Albert Einstein quote .. what else you want to discern?? -
A few points emerged from this discussion so far:
1. Internet resource: it is already established that the Internet is widely used as a rallying point to support one's claim, there are credible sources and there are bad ones. It is important to note that it is the responsibility of the writer to ensure that the sources quoted are credible. This is especially critical when Christians use unreliable sources (read – urban legends and myths) to support ones claims.
2. Critical thinking, in itself is not wrong, otherwise why would Jesus admonish us to be as gentle as sheep and by cunning as the serpent (sorry, not sure if the correct animals are used here)? The fact that some folks (me inclusive) use critical thinking a lot does not mean that we do not embrace our faith. Otherwise, why would I advocate serious Christians to go look up the correct meaning of the various English words comparing against the original wording. It is extremely wrong to pronounce judgment on people who prefers to exercise more critically thinking than others. It is true that it is faith in God that brings us salvation, but may I add that it is through critical thinking that allows us to be better Christians because we are able to discern truth from fiction. Otherwise, we will be rejoicing over testimonies that never took place or are sadden by events that never happened. If within my powers, I will not allow that to happen because that would have cheapened the name of our Lord. -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
Agreed. We should always discern truth from fiction. I do not subscribe to the group who shout "hallelujah" or "amen" when their senior pastor declared a miracle. They can have new miracles every week.
A few points emerged from this discussion so far:
[b]1. Internet resource: it is already established that the Internet is widely used as a rallying point to support one's claim, there are credible sources and there are bad ones. It is important to note that it is the responsibility of the writer to ensure that the sources quoted are credible. This is especially critical when Christians use unreliable sources (read – urban legends and myths) to support ones claims.
2. Critical thinking, in itself is not wrong, otherwise why would Jesus admonish us to be as gentle as sheep and by cunning as the serpent (sorry, not sure if the correct animals are used here)? The fact that some folks (me inclusive) use critical thinking a lot does not mean that we do not embrace our faith. Otherwise, why would I advocate serious Christians to go look up the correct meaning of the various English words comparing against the original wording. It is extremely wrong to pronounce judgment on people who prefers to exercise more critically thinking than others. It is true that it is faith in God that brings us salvation, but may I add that it is through critical thinking that allows us to be better Christians because we are able to discern truth from fiction. Otherwise, we will be rejoicing over testimonies that never took place or are sadden by events that never happened. If within my powers, I will not allow that to happen because that would have cheapened the name of our Lord.
[/b] -
He is human. Leave him alone.Originally posted by Icemoon:Sheesh .. you've put the Lord's name in shame. You've let your school teachers down. If you're a graduate, you wasted your money on tertiary education.
Get God's wisdom? I think you're not even 1% there yet. God don't give each of us a brain for nothing. Discernment? You can't even discern a simple Albert Einstein quote .. what else you want to discern?? -
Can u do a better job?Originally posted by laurence82:Sheesh, you've done something that amounts to slander. Have the guts to stand up and admit it, rather than leading yourself into greater denial and shrugging it all off.
You have churn up something from the email, which three of us at least have proven otherwise, to the point of check mulitple websites for clarifications. Something that you cannot even pinpoint the source for credibility.
You insist its the words. Again, I have said for the umpteenth time the consequences of posting things and not deriving the meaning from the author point of views. And the author is also proven to be fake.
Do everyone and yourself a favour - stop wrapping yourself in denial and stop treating everyone else like fools.
For a moderator, this is totally unbecoming.