Can any Christians help? I wanna know that Paul was apostle!

• Karim (Kai)

  13 Dec 05, 08:55

  I have began to have doubts, and practically lost my faith into apostole mission of Paul (I wanna respect all apostles and prophets), and these words of Jesus affected into it very much (after words/passages how I understood them, please give me other possibilities):
  
  Matt.24:23. “At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it."
  
  25. See, I have told you ahead of time (told YOU, disciplines, as a warning). 26. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' (PaulÂ’s "Jesus revelation" on road to Damascus) do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' ("Jesus revelation" in prison) do not believe it (Mohammed did not claim to have seen Jesus in desert/house, so from who is Jesus speaking about?)."
  
  And these too:
  
  Matt.24:24. "For false ChristÂ’s and false prophets will appear and perform great SIGNS and MIRACLES to deceive even the elect (disciplines) - if that were possible."
  
  2.Corinth.12:12. “When I was with you, I certainly gave you every proof that I am truly an apostle, sent to you by God himself. For I patiently did many SIGNS and wonders and MIRACLES among you.”
  
  So please give me good reasons to accept apostle Paul again, without doubts.
• M©+square

  13 Dec 05, 10:09

  Originally posted by Karim (Kai):

  I have began to have doubts, and practically lost my faith into apostole mission of Paul (I wanna respect all apostles and prophets), and these words of Jesus affected into it very much (after words/passages how I understood them, please give me other possibilities):
  
  Matt.24:23. “At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it."
  
  25. See, I have told you ahead of time (told YOU, disciplines, as a warning). 26. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' (Paul’s "Jesus revelation" on road to Damascus) do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' ("Jesus revelation" in prison) do not believe it (Mohammed did not claim to have seen Jesus in desert/house, so from who is Jesus speaking about?)."
  
  And these too:
  
  Matt.24:24. "For false Christ’s and false prophets will appear and perform great SIGNS and MIRACLES to deceive even the elect (disciplines) - if that were possible."
  
  2.Corinth.12:12. “When I was with you, I certainly gave you every proof that I am truly an apostle, sent to you by God himself. For I patiently did many SIGNS and wonders and MIRACLES among you.”
  
  So please give me good reasons to accept apostle Paul again, without doubts.

  I seriously think that you're taking scriptures out of context.
  
  Maybe i've misunderstood your post.
• Karim (Kai)

  13 Dec 05, 10:19

  Originally posted by M©+square:

  I seriously think that you're taking scriptures out of context.
  
  Maybe i've misunderstood your post.

  Yes, you have misunderstood it...
  
  I just wanna know that into what/whom and how/why these words of Jesus refers to, as I am worried that one possibility could be Paul (I tried to explain my fears connected to each part where I have seen some "dangers" ).
  
  I would just like to get this sorted out, not to take anything out of context.
  
• klydeer

  13 Dec 05, 12:43

  Originally posted by Karim (Kai):

  I have began to have doubts, and practically lost my faith into apostole mission of Paul (I wanna respect all apostles and prophets), and these words of Jesus affected into it very much (after words/passages how I understood them, please give me other possibilities):
  
  Matt.24:23. “At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it."
  
  25. See, I have told you ahead of time (told YOU, disciplines, as a warning). 26. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' (PaulÂ’s "Jesus revelation" on road to Damascus) do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' ("Jesus revelation" in prison) do not believe it (Mohammed did not claim to have seen Jesus in desert/house, so from who is Jesus speaking about?)."
  
  And these too:
  
  Matt.24:24. "For false ChristÂ’s and false prophets will appear and perform great SIGNS and MIRACLES to deceive even the elect (disciplines) - if that were possible."
  
  2.Corinth.12:12. “When I was with you, I certainly gave you every proof that I am truly an apostle, sent to you by God himself. For I patiently did many SIGNS and wonders and MIRACLES among you.”
  
  So please give me good reasons to accept apostle Paul again, without doubts.

  Hi there.
  
  "reasons" i believe many Christians here can try to provide through the word of God. "Without doubts" - this nobody can give except dependent on your relationship with God.
  
  there are many reasons for me to believe in the Apostleship of Paul - right from the Canoncity of the Bible to the letters he wrote in encouragement to the many Gentiles.
  
  But perhaps you would like to first consider this passage: Acts 14:8-19 when the Apostle Paul is at Lystra with Barnabas. He would not have done what he have done if he is - like what you seems to suggest - a false prophet. Note especially how Paul stands up after the crowd stones him - do you think the Lord preserves a false prophet this way if he is one ?
  
  will post again later due to lack of time.
  
  see you soon, Kai.
  
  
• Chin Eng

  13 Dec 05, 16:18

  First and foremost, if anyone accepts that the ENTIRE Bible is the word of
  God, than the confusion does not exist - the church at the time of Paul ACCEPTS him as an apostle. Paul goes even further and rebuke Peter, who we all know is the leading apostle. If the church at that time has no issue on Paul's status, I don't think anyone should find fault with him in this present day.
  
  Secondly, what we see in the New Testament is only a very small collection of books written during those times on the life of Christ and the works of the various so-called apostles. Why the books were chosen to be part of the NT is not the point of this discussion. The warnings given by Jesus about false prophets were targeted at a large number of "religious" teachers who were also propagating their own brand of religion. It should be noted too, that the warning given by Jesus still holds true now.
• Ironside

  13 Dec 05, 18:57

  Originally posted by Karim (Kai):

  I have began to have doubts, and practically lost my faith into apostole mission of Paul (I wanna respect all apostles and prophets), and these words of Jesus affected into it very much (after words/passages how I understood them, please give me other possibilities):
  
  Matt.24:23. “At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it."
  
  25. See, I have told you ahead of time (told YOU, disciplines, as a warning). 26. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' (PaulÂ’s "Jesus revelation" on road to Damascus) do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' ("Jesus revelation" in prison) do not believe it (Mohammed did not claim to have seen Jesus in desert/house, so from who is Jesus speaking about?)."
  
  And these too:
  
  Matt.24:24. "For false ChristÂ’s and false prophets will appear and perform great SIGNS and MIRACLES to deceive even the elect (disciplines) - if that were possible."
  
  2.Corinth.12:12. “When I was with you, I certainly gave you every proof that I am truly an apostle, sent to you by God himself. For I patiently did many SIGNS and wonders and MIRACLES among you.”
  
  So please give me good reasons to accept apostle Paul again, without doubts.

  Matthew 24:23-24 speaks of the times during the Great Tribulation. [see the context of the passages]
  
  Mt 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
  
  23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.
  
  24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
  25 "See, I have told you beforehand.
  
  26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
  
  27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."
  
  This speaks of a time before the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Great Tribulation [Revelations 6-19]. During that time many false Christ will come out and decieve many. In fact, during that time, the AntiChrist will temporarily succced in convincing Israelites.
  
  This texts does not apply to Paul.
  
  Paul prophesied concerning that time of Tribulation as Johnn have in REvelation:
  
  2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day[ will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the and the man of sin [AntiChrist] is revealed, the son of perdition,
  
  4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
  
  5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
  
  6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
  
  7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
  
  8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
  
  9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
  
  
• Karim (Kai)

  13 Dec 05, 21:22

  Originally posted by klydeer:

  Hi there.
  
  "reasons" i believe many Christians here can try to provide through the word of God. "Without doubts" - this nobody can give except dependent on your relationship with God.
  
  there are many reasons for me to believe in the Apostleship of Paul - right from the Canoncity of the Bible to the letters he wrote in encouragement to the many Gentiles.
  
  But perhaps you would like to first consider this passage: Acts 14:8-19 when the Apostle Paul is at Lystra with Barnabas. He would not have done what he have done if he is - like what you seems to suggest - a false prophet. Note especially how Paul stands up after the crowd stones him - do you think the Lord preserves a false prophet this way if he is one ?
  
  will post again later due to lack of time.
  
  see you soon, Kai.
  
  

  I try to be as critical as I can, to convince even myself:
  
  Well, my problem is that if Paul was evil, then he could have purpously "act on behalf of Christianity", if modern churches (founded by Paul) have gone astray. Remember that he used to be fundamentalist Jew, and I began to have doubts if he just wanted to twist Christianity from inside not to be danger anymore to Judaism. In Taurah "Son of God" generally means somebody close to God (Adam, Salomon, David, etc.), like prophet, so could it be that Paul deliberately forbid teaching of Taurah to Pagans so that they would understand "Son of God" through their old pagan-religions (Hercules son of Zeus etc.), and so make Christianity sound as false religion to Jews through "pagan churches" (trinity etc.)?
  
  In Bible also satan (antichrist/false prophet?) has permission from God to keep even Jesus in the desert fo 40 days, and SMALL stoning might not be dangerous (except small damage), so can we be sure where Paul got his "inspiration" and "strenght"?
• Karim (Kai)

  13 Dec 05, 21:27

  Originally posted by Chin Eng:

  First and foremost, if anyone accepts that the ENTIRE Bible is the word of
  God, than the confusion does not exist - the church at the time of Paul ACCEPTS him as an apostle. Paul goes even further and rebuke Peter, who we all know is the leading apostle. If the church at that time has no issue on Paul's status, I don't think anyone should find fault with him in this present day.
  
  Secondly, what we see in the New Testament is only a very small collection of books written during those times on the life of Christ and the works of the various so-called apostles. Why the books were chosen to be part of the NT is not the point of this discussion. The warnings given by Jesus about false prophets were targeted at a large number of "religious" teachers who were also propagating their own brand of religion. It should be noted too, that the warning given by Jesus still holds true now.

  My biggest problem is that neither God or Jesus says in Bible that whole of it (Bible) is Word of God.
  
  ----If the church at that time has no issue on Paul's status, I don't think anyone should find fault with him in this present day.-----
  
  Jesus also said that those false prophets will deceive even "ELECT", who would be more "elect" in Christianity but disciples?
  
  ----The warnings given by Jesus about false prophets were targeted at a large number of "religious" teachers who were also propagating their own brand of religion.----
  
  But into who these descriptions about seeing Jesus in desert or inside house fits, if not into revelations of Paul?
  
  ----It should be noted too, that the warning given by Jesus still holds true now.----
  
  If it holds true now, why not in times of Paul?
  
  Now you maybe began to see whole picture of my problem here.
• Karim (Kai)

  13 Dec 05, 21:42

  Originally posted by Ironside:
  
  
  Matthew 24:23-24 speaks of the times during the Great Tribulation. [see the context of the passages]
  
  This speaks of a time before the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Great Tribulation [Revelations 6-19]. During that time many false Christ will come out and decieve many. In fact, during that time, the AntiChrist will temporarily succced in convincing Israelites.
  
  This texts does not apply to Paul.

  Originally posted by Ironside:
  [b]
  
  Paul prophesied concerning that time of Tribulation as Johnn have in REvelation:
  
  2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that [b]Day[ will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the and the man of sin [AntiChrist] is revealed, the son of perdition,
  
  4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
  
  5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
  [/b][/u]
  
  [/b]

  Context of text (even before passages you gave) spoke about great persecutions of Christians, were that not happening even trough hands of Paul and his army?
  
  And why did Jesus say that he will be back before last from those who were with him will die? Could it be that second coming happened right after he passed (when Paul came), and has maybe even happened several times after it?
  
  Was Paul prophet? If he was false prophet that Jesus prophesied, would he not try to explain those prophesies to remove any doubts from himself?
  
  And in Deut.18:20-22 is told how to make difference between false and real prophets, prophesies of real prophets will come to pass, can we say that prophecy of Paul came true?
  
  In Deut.18:20-22 is even told that God will kill false prophets, and Paul was killed just in couple of years after beginning of his mission. What should we think about it?
  
  
• Ironside

  13 Dec 05, 21:54

  Originally posted by Karim (Kai):

  Context of text (even before passages you gave) spoke about great persecutions of Christians, were that not happening even trough hands of Paul and his army?
  
  And why did Jesus say that he will be back before last from those who were with him will die? Could it be that second coming happened right after he passed (when Paul came), and has maybe even happened several times after it?
  
  Was Paul prophet? If he was false prophet that Jesus prophesied, would he not try to explain those prophesies to remove any doubts from himself?
  
  And in Deut.18:20-22 is told how to make difference between false and real prophets, prophesies of real prophets will come to pass, can we say that prophecy of Paul came true?
  
  In Deut.18:20-22 is even told that God will kill false prophets, and Paul was killed just in couple of years after beginning of his mission. What should we think about it?
  
  

  i want to be frank with you. are you asking these questions because you really want to know the truth or are you doing this because you want to subtly attack Christianity.
  
  i noticed your caption below it says: 'Jesus really did prophecy Islam, but those parts have not been noticed before I did so, by Mercy of Allah.'
  
  
• laoda99

  13 Dec 05, 22:06

  Originally posted by Karim (Kai):

  I try to be as critical as I can, to convince even myself:
  
  Well, my problem is that if Paul was evil, then he could have purpously "act on behalf of Christianity", if modern churches (founded by Paul) have gone astray. Remember that he used to be fundamentalist Jew, and I began to have doubts if he just wanted to twist Christianity from inside not to be danger anymore to Judaism. In Taurah "Son of God" generally means somebody close to God (Adam, Salomon, David, etc.), like prophet, so could it be that Paul deliberately forbid teaching of Taurah to Pagans so that they would understand "Son of God" through their old pagan-religions (Hercules son of Zeus etc.), and so make Christianity sound as false religion to Jews through "pagan churches" (trinity etc.)?
  
  In Bible also satan (antichrist/false prophet?) has permission from God to keep even Jesus in the desert fo 40 days, and SMALL stoning might not be dangerous (except small damage), so can we be sure where Paul got his "inspiration" and "strenght"?

  From how u write your post I understand that you are a muslim. As far as u believe Mohammad is your prophet, I think there is no dispute that Paul is an apostle of god.
  
  However Christ is definitely more than a prophet. He is the son of god. Was once persuaded by a muslim friend Christ is merely a prophet. After I read the bible again I am convinced he is the son of god (note: Christ openly receive worship and never did once deny that he is the son of god. His deeds are not what any "mere" prophet can compare to)
• Kai (Karim)

  13 Dec 05, 22:16

  As I said, I wanna believe into ALL prophets and ALL apostles.
  
  There is no problem in believing into all prophets, but.....
  
  You know rest, and you SHOULD see that I am cincerily seaking help here.
• laoda99

  13 Dec 05, 22:30

  Originally posted by Kai (Karim):

  As I said, I wanna believe into ALL prophets and ALL apostles.
  
  There is no problem in believing into all prophets, but.....
  
  You know rest, and you SHOULD see that I am cincerily seaking help here.

  Are u a Christian seeking help, or a muslim who want to know more abt Christ?
• Chin Eng

  14 Dec 05, 08:33

  Originally posted by Karim (Kai):

  My biggest problem is that neither God or Jesus says in Bible that whole of it (Bible) is Word of God.
  

  True, that being the case, maybe the entire scripture is fabricated. Then there is nothing to discuss already. The hypothesis is that: THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD.
  It this hypothesis is not true, that nothing else written the Bible means anything.
  
  

  Originally posted by Karim (Kai):

  Jesus also said that those false prophets will deceive even "ELECT", who would be more "elect" in Christianity but disciples?
  

  Going back to the hypothesis - Peter and the other apostles have no problem with Paul. We can assume that their credibility is strong.
  
  

  Originally posted by Karim (Kai):

  But into who these descriptions about seeing Jesus in desert or inside house fits, if not into revelations of Paul?
  

  The description was given by Luke, not Paul, in Acts. It was not a self-proclamation.
  
  

  Originally posted by Karim (Kai):

  If it holds true now, why not in times of Paul?
  Now you maybe began to see whole picture of my problem here.

  Yes it holds true in the times of Paul as well. There are some accounts of false prophets in the NT.
  
  As what Ironside and Laoda had asked: what is your intent of asking your question?
  
  One cannot walk around professing to believe in "all prophets and all apostles" BECAUSE anyone can call ourselves prophets and apostles. Even in this present times, there are some preachers who call themselves prophets and apostles. So in itself, your intention is already flawed.
  
  If you are a Muslim, it is ok to find out about what other faiths believe in - academically speaking but there is no reason to believe in every Tom, Richard and Harry you come across.
  If you are a Christian, may I ask you to speak to your pastor about it.
  
• klydeer

  16 Dec 05, 15:11

  Originally posted by Karim (Kai):

  I try to be as critical as I can, to convince even myself:
  
  Well, my problem is that if Paul was evil, then he could have purpously "act on behalf of Christianity", if modern churches (founded by Paul) have gone astray. Remember that he used to be fundamentalist Jew, and I began to have doubts if he just wanted to twist Christianity from inside not to be danger anymore to Judaism. In Taurah "Son of God" generally means somebody close to God (Adam, Salomon, David, etc.), like prophet, so could it be that Paul deliberately forbid teaching of Taurah to Pagans so that they would understand "Son of God" through their old pagan-religions (Hercules son of Zeus etc.), and so make Christianity sound as false religion to Jews through "pagan churches" (trinity etc.)?
  
  In Bible also satan (antichrist/false prophet?) has permission from God to keep even Jesus in the desert fo 40 days, and SMALL stoning might not be dangerous (except small damage), so can we be sure where Paul got his "inspiration" and "strenght"?

  Hi Kai,
  
  Chin Eng gives the most relevant truth to your pondering - If you do not believe the Bible - then everything in it can be questionable.
  
  If we believe that the Bible is Spirit Led - then why should we question what we believe .......
  
  Of course, Paul's former name was Saul and was a man full of hatred for the disciples of Christ. So you believe that part of the Bible and do not believe the rest ?
  
  Who are we to judge about God's grace for him ? Before Paul, Jesus already rose from the dead and those who seek him is saved. i would rather believe that God is able to touch him - yes even him. How about ourselves ? Who are we to question Paul's integrity ? Are we without sins ? Cast the first stone then. The fact of the day is this - at times, we have already cast our "stones" by judging other people's sins (with or without grounds).
  
  Stoning - i dont think the Bible mention anything about the "smallness" of stoning or it is compared with 40 days and nights in the desert without food and water. Stoning however, is contrary to what you said - extremely fatal. Just need to imagine this - in the old days, roads are not properly tarred like ours today. There are small stones and BIG stones here, there, everywhere. You stand in the center and the crowd (80 people ? 100 people ?) each pick up a stone in anger and throw at you. Small damage ? i dont think so. Anyways, i raise this issue up not really for you to look at how the crowd hates Paul - but how Paul stands up and walk away. That is the Act of a Man after God's heart. Evil ? Rather - he Lives in Victory - Not in Vengeance but in Faith.
  
  Did Paul forbade the teaching of Law ? NO !! If so, how do you explain this:
  
  "They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets." - Acts 28:23
  
  ?????
  
  [/b]