God's will
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Only skeptism and unbelief?Originally posted by laoda99:not "miracles" ...the key word is faith.... if u dun have faith, then u dun believe in anything.......give u a thousand miracles also useless.....
men's skeptism/unbelief will lead to his downfall/hell....... -
i was.Originally posted by SocialOutcast:Ya that's kinda sad for some people. But if He really exists then whether you agree with Him or not does not matter at all.
Hey, just curious, were you once a Christian or something? -
why is job a bad example?Originally posted by M©+square:Job is a bad example. -
me think the real star in the Book of Job is Job and not God.Originally posted by laoda99:why is job a bad example?
Actually God is portrayed in quite a bad light in the Book .. -
I don't think so....Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually God is portrayed in quite a bad light in the Book .. -
I can anyhow throw you one example - God did not give Job back his original family members who died.Originally posted by laoda99:I don't think so....
Another example is God talking merrily with The Fallen Angel. Bad PR.
Can't you see? God is "making use" of Job to prove His point. -
The main scope of Job is about how believers should have faith in God, whether in good times or bad times....not whether God should give Job back his original family members who died.Originally posted by Icemoon:I can anyhow throw you one example - God did not give Job back his original family members who died.
Another example is God talking merrily with The Fallen Angel. Bad PR.
Can't you see? God is "making use" of Job to prove His point.
And who are we to question what God should do? Chapter 1 verse 21 clearly says:And he said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return; the LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD."
And chapter 2 verse 10 says: But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
I would still say Job is a shining example to all believers. We should always believe that God is in control.
And I do not think he is talking merrily with Satan.
And look at Job's rewards...last chapter:
10: And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends; and the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.
11: Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house; and they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him; and each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.
12: And the LORD blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning; and he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she-asses.
13: He had also seven sons and three daughters.
14: And he called the name of the first Jemi'mah; and the name of the second Kezi'ah; and the name of the third Ker'en-hap'puch.
15: And in all the land there were no women so fair as Job's daughters; and their father gave them inheritance among their brothers.
16: And after this Job lived a hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, four generations.
17: And Job died, an old man, and full of days. -
Originally posted by laoda99:your post already included the notion that God allow bad things to happen...simple as that......
As to whether why He allows it to happen, for me I believe He wanted to taught me humility.
I was a hep c patient and suffered for one year for the treatment......was darn arrogant and believe I do not need Him....even joking to my fren that I was the devil bringing my gf out from church....many things happened....
whatever happens, just believe that He is in control.....read the book of JOB....job is a shining example....
The problem with the highlighted in context about Job, is a misleading example. Your situation is far weak compared to Job.Originally posted by laoda99:why is job a bad example?
To easily put it across.
If God, by 'divine permission' were to allow the removal of your parents, your girlfriend and career in a day. Like the way Job lost his possessions.
Would you have accept it humbly and say 'God is in control?'
Have you considered if you really had been in Job's position?
Ask yourself this very question.
Are you willing to put yourself to be tried this way?
Are you willing to give up what you have now in exchange for a Job 42:10-17 kind of restoration???
________________
It is easy for believers to quote Job as an Shining example.
But difficult for them to live through what Job lived.
If i'd to ask, who would like to go through what Job had gone through so to be tested and proved worthy as God's servant?
Who in the right mind will wish to suffer what Job did?
________________
Sub Question:
'God is in control' meaning God has everything planned in your life and knows your every thought and responses towards it.
Yes or No?
MC -
Interesting Point of View!!! Let me go thru this again.Originally posted by laoda99:The main scope of Job is about how believers should have faith in God, whether in good times or bad times....not whether God should give Job back his original family members who died.
And who are we to question what God should do? Chapter 1 verse 21 clearly says:And he said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return; the LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD."
And chapter 2 verse 10 says: But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
I would still say Job is a shining example to all believers. We should always believe that God is in control.
And I do not think he is talking merrily with Satan.
And look at Job's rewards...last chapter:
10: And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends; and the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.
11: Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house; and they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him; and each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.
12: And the LORD blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning; and he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she-asses.
13: He had also seven sons and three daughters.
14: And he called the name of the first Jemi'mah; and the name of the second Kezi'ah; and the name of the third Ker'en-hap'puch.
15: And in all the land there were no women so fair as Job's daughters; and their father gave them inheritance among their brothers.
16: And after this Job lived a hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, four generations.
17: And Job died, an old man, and full of days.
Let's say God were to remove your family and girlfriend, would you say. It's not about God return your family member and gf or not. It's about how a believer should respond onto this kind of situation?
ZEALOUSNESS to the MAX!!!!!
You shouldn't question God, because in everything that he does. It is His plan, His will.
You don't have to say anything, don't have to ask and don't have to resist. Just follow God and please him.
This is seriously Flawed.
______________________
My question is very simple.
Why did God allow satan to test Job, just like he'd allowed the test of Adam and Eve?
MC -
very well said.Originally posted by M©+square:The problem with the highlighted in context about Job, is a misleading example. Your situation is far weak compared to Job.
To easily put it across. If God, by 'divine permission' were to allow the removal of your parents, your girlfriend and career in a day. Like the way Job lost his possessions.
Would you have accept it humbly and say 'God is in control?'
Have you considered if you really had been in Job's position?
Ask yourself this very question.
Are you willing to put yourself to be tried this way?
Are you willing to give up what you have now in exchange for a Job 42:10-17 kind of restoration???
________________
It is easy for believers to quote Job as an Shining example.
But difficult for them to live through what Job lived.
If i'd to ask, who would like to go through what Job had gone through so to be tested and proved worthy as God's servant?
Who in the right mind will wish to suffer what Job did?
________________
Sub Question:
'God is in control' meaning God has everything planned in your life and knows your every thought and responses towards it.
Yes or No?
MC
most christians, especially the 'young' ones, are overly enthusiastic and like to quote this and that from the bible. many thought it shows they know about the religion. but frankly being a christian is not just about the bible. it is always very easy to tell people how great GOD is.
it is only when one really gets all the s h i t t y things in life that one's faith can really be known. after all majority or 99.9% of the people are all fair weather believers. -
It is not a matter about willing MCSQUARE, but if GOD wants to test u this way........can u refuse?Originally posted by M©+square:The problem with the highlighted in context about Job, is a misleading example. Your situation is far weak compared to Job.
To easily put it across. If God, by 'divine permission' were to allow the removal of your parents, your girlfriend and career in a day. Like the way Job lost his possessions.
Would you have accept it humbly and say 'God is in control?'
Have you considered if you really had been in Job's position?
Ask yourself this very question.
Are you willing to put yourself to be tried this way?
Are you willing to give up what you have now in exchange for a Job 42:10-17 kind of restoration???
________________
It is easy for believers to quote Job as an Shining example.
But difficult for them to live through what Job lived.
If i'd to ask, who would like to go through what Job had gone through so to be tested and proved worthy as God's servant?
Who in the right mind will wish to suffer what Job did?
________________
Sub Question:
'God is in control' meaning God has everything planned in your life and knows your every thought and responses towards it.
Yes or No?
MC
Frankly, I would have cursed and swear if such things happened to me.......but thinking back.....job is really a good example for us to follow......knowing that GOD permits good things/bad things to happen to believers make us more prepare.....and we should always believe that he is in control....
btw, i just received my lab reports: my hepatitis c has relapsed....and I have just purchase a flat and make plans to marry my gf........but I am not blaming GOD for this.... -
Hmmm........honestly MCSQUARE....u are an older christian.....but these questions I would expect to come from non-believers or younger christians....Originally posted by M©+square:Interesting Point of View!!! Let me go thru this again.
Let's say God were to remove your family and girlfriend, would you say. It's not about God return your family member and gf or not. It's about how a believer should respond onto this kind of situation?
ZEALOUSNESS to the MAX!!!!!
You shouldn't question God, because in everything that he does. It is His plan, His will.
You don't have to say anything, don't have to ask and don't have to resist. Just follow God and please him.
This is seriously Flawed.
______________________
My question is very simple.
Why did God allow satan to test Job, just like he'd allowed the test of Adam and Eve?
MC
Why is it seriously flawed?
Are we suppose/able to question GOD for all what he did? -
Have you realise that when you said it is a test from God,Originally posted by laoda99:It is not a matter about willing MCSQUARE, but if GOD wants to test u this way........can u refuse?
Frankly, I would have cursed and swear if such things happened to me.......but thinking back.....job is really a good example for us to follow......knowing that GOD permits good things/bad things to happen to believers make us more prepare.....and we should always believe that he is in control....
btw, i just received my lab reports: my hepatitis c has relapsed....and I have just purchase a flat and make plans to marry my gf........but I am not blaming GOD for this....
You are liable to fail the test? And whose responsiblity?
So God permits bad things to happen, does he also permits men to fail in his test?
So when a believer went through a suffering. God is in control and he allowed it to happen.
When a believer fails the 'test'. God is in control and allowed it to happen?
After the test, the believer falls away from grace, God is in control and allowed it to happen???
_______
No doubt test and adversities are created for oppotunities to grow.
Have it ever occured to you that the shining example of God was God's plan right from the beginning?
_______
Sorry to hear that your Hep C, but things are still managable i hope?
It's good to have your love ones by your side.
Life is still good. -
Yes, I am liable to fail the test, and I believe it is also my responsibility if I fail the test (Job is in a position to curse/praise GOD when things happen).Originally posted by M©+square:Have you realise that when you said it is a test from God,
You are liable to fail the test? And whose responsiblity?
So God permits bad things to happen, does he also permits men to fail in his test?
So when a believer went through a suffering. God is in control and he allowed it to happen.
When a believer fails the 'test'. God is in control and allowed it to happen?
After the test, the believer falls away from grace, God is in control and allowed it to happen???
_______
No doubt test and adversities are created for oppotunities to grow.
Have it ever occured to you that the shining example of God was God's plan right from the beginning?
I think GOD permits bad things to happen, and does he also permits men to fail in his test? ? I dare not say....but look at JOB again....GOD knows from the start that he cannot fail as he is a righteous man....tat's why he permit satan to test him.....
As for your last question, After the test, the believer falls away from grace, God is in control and allowed it to happen???
I would say probably god would allow it to happen becoz he knows the believer best himself....what is ur take? -
Honestly, there are only TWO ways to go about these daunting issues.Originally posted by laoda99:Hmmm........honestly MCSQUARE....u are an older christian.....but these questions I would expect to come from non-believers or younger christians....
Why is it seriously flawed?
Are we suppose/able to question GOD for all what he did?
1. To believe and let live, not because the believer understood...but because he chose to see it this way. He managed to conclude the questions and put it aside.
2. To believe and continue struggling with questions. Though he knows the sovereign work of God, but cannot reconcile the paradox.
Very likely because he is a person who have encountered the 'grey issues' first hand.
I'm not a Christian. -
I always thought u are....nevermind.....Originally posted by M©+square:Honestly, there are only TWO ways to go about these daunting issues.
1. To believe and let live, not because the believer understood...but because he chose to see it this way. He managed to conclude the questions and put it aside.
2. To believe and continue struggling with questions. Though he knows the sovereign work of God, but cannot reconcile the paradox.
Very likely because he is a person who have encountered the 'grey issues' first hand.
I'm not a Christian.
I think these two ways are intertwined...
I do not believe we can fully understood all the grey areas with our human understanding...why not just have faith and believe in god? -
If you've come face to face with the grey areas, will you just have faith and believe in God?Originally posted by laoda99:I always thought u are....nevermind.....
I think these two ways are intertwined...
I do not believe we can fully understood all the grey areas with our human understanding...why not just have faith and believe in god?
'no one should have to suspend their reasoning abilities to believe in the truth.'
Some agree with this quote. Some don't. Doesn't matter. Just as long as you're happy with your life. -
Hmm...I believe I have come face to face with the grey areas.....to a large extent.....Originally posted by M©+square:If you've come face to face with the grey areas, will you just have faith and believe in God?
'no one should have to suspend their reasoning abilities to believe in the truth.'
Some agree with this quote. Some don't. Doesn't matter. Just as long as you're happy with your life.
So u agree with your own quote? -
I don't think you've got the weight of what i mean by grey areas. Something which we are unable to handle but yet have to made a decision.Originally posted by laoda99:Hmm...I believe I have come face to face with the grey areas.....to a large extent.....
So u agree with your own quote?
Bringing Job as an example was a poor counter because you have to know that God allowed it to happen and surely God had known that Job will pass this test. We have to see if we agree 'if God have known the result of Job's test, before the test/adversity was conducted.'
That's not my quote, got it from a apologetics website.
Personally, i'd say challenge the question and reason it until you're able to conclude. It'll come back from time to time.
But it is important that a believer can overcome these issues in his own abilities and capacity.
Cheers -
I would say GOD knows the result from the beginning.....Originally posted by M©+square:I don't think you've got the weight of what i mean by grey areas. Something which we are unable to handle but yet have to made a decision.
Bringing Job as an example was a poor counter because you have to know that God allowed it to happen and surely God had known that Job will pass this test. We have to see if we agree 'if God have known the result of Job's test, before the test/adversity was conducted.'
That's not my quote, got it from a apologetics website.
Personally, i'd say challenge the question and reason it until you're able to conclude. It'll come back from time to time.
But it is important that a believer can overcome these issues in his own abilities and capacity.
Cheers
A believer can overcome these issues by faith and prayers.....not by our human reasoning....... -
I believe we are in similiar camp of thoughts however you want to neutral in certain aspects in this case.Originally posted by laoda99:Yes, I am liable to fail the test, and I believe it is also my responsibility if I fail the test (Job is in a position to curse/praise GOD when things happen).
I think GOD permits bad things to happen, and does he also permits men to fail in his test? ? I dare not say....but look at JOB again....GOD knows from the start that he cannot fail as he is a righteous man....tat's why he permit satan to test him.....
As for your last question, After the test, the believer falls away from grace, God is in control and allowed it to happen???
I would say probably god would allow it to happen becoz he knows the believer best himself....what is ur take?
My take? God knows it even before the test. This mysterious attribute is disturbing.
All things are already known by Him. So i'm no longer sure if i'm living by my free will or His planned will.
Side track abit.
Have you personally seen a 'Righteous man' who utterly fall away from grace?
I've seen before. -
God knows the result. So we are just acting out the results?Originally posted by laoda99:I would say GOD knows the result from the beginning.....
A believer can overcome these issues by faith and prayers.....not by our human reasoning.......
eg. Judas is created to betray Christ and kill himself. God knows baby Judas is going to be the betrayer of His Son, Jesus.
Judas will be created and die without salvation.
May i ask what issue is there to overcome? -
Is he talking about .. himself?!!!!Originally posted by M©+square:Side track abit.
Have you personally seen a 'Righteous man' who utterly fall away from grace?
I've seen before. -
free will...planned will.....these are terms what humans come out.....i think sometimes we are too concerned with theologies, trying to understand GOD in terms of human formulas....but failed miserably....Originally posted by M©+square:I believe we are in similiar camp of thoughts however you want to neutral in certain aspects in this case.
My take? God knows it even before the test. This mysterious attribute is disturbing.
All things are already known by Him. So i'm no longer sure if i'm living by my free will or His planned will.
Side track abit.
Have you personally seen a 'Righteous man' who utterly fall away from grace?
I've seen before.
I have seen b4, but not in the church....
Are u disappointed with men of god or with god? -
Nope.Originally posted by Icemoon:Is he talking about .. himself?!!!!