Walk The Talk
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arghhhhh
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haha... macross i must say ur belief on good works and justification by faith differs somewhat from mainstream Catholism.
but earlier u commented:"So if we do wrongs, we don't need to pay restitution? Christ's death is not a permit for sinning you know."
u are absolutely right in saying that good works and faith are intertwined. good works are the fruits of faith. however, good works cannot pay for our sins after we have accepted Jesus. our debts to God has been paid in full by Jesus.
from what i do know, Catholism teaches that one must do good works as a form of penance for sins committed after we have accepted Jesus.
"A person cannot save himself by his own works (i.e., not preceded by God's grace and supernatural assistance."
i hope im not misterpreting u (correct me if i am
), but are u saying that a person CAN save himself by his own works after he/she has accepted Christ? if man could not satisfy God with his/her works before he/she accepted Jesus, then in wat way are our works made any different in the eyes of God after we have accepted Jesus?
the works of man still are the works of man in the eyes of God, regardless of whether or not he/she has accepted Jesus into his/her life.
good works verifies and confirms that true faith in Christ lives in that person, and that a transformation and renewing of the mind has taken place. however, good works is not a means to "complete" the price of salvation, because the price of salvation has been paid in full when Jesus said:" tetelestai (it is finished)," on the cross.[/i] -
Hmm...How is my belief any different? The Catholic Church does not teach that we receive initial justification by good works. You do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified. Through Christ death and rising we are initially justified. But we still have to play our part. DonÂ’t forget what Romans 5-8 says:Originally posted by ccck:haha... macross i must say ur belief on good works and justification by faith differs somewhat from mainstream Catholism.
but earlier u commented:"So if we do wrongs, we don't need to pay restitution? Christ's death is not a permit for sinning you know."
u are absolutely right in saying that good works and faith are intertwined. good works are the fruits of faith. however, good works cannot pay for our sins after we have accepted Jesus. our debts to God has been paid in full by Jesus.
from what i do know, Catholism teaches that one must do good works as a form of penance for sins committed after we have accepted Jesus.
"A person cannot save himself by his own works (i.e., not preceded by God's grace and supernatural assistance."
i hope im not misterpreting u (correct me if i am), but are u saying that a person CAN save himself by his own works after he/she has accepted Christ? if man could not satisfy God with his/her works before he/she accepted Jesus, then in wat way are our works made any different in the eyes of God after we have accepted Jesus?
the works of man still are the works of man in the eyes of God, regardless of whether or not he/she has accepted Jesus into his/her life.
good works verifies and confirms that true faith in Christ lives in that person, and that a transformation and renewing of the mind has taken place. however, good works is not a means to "complete" the price of salvation, because the price of salvation has been paid in full when Jesus said:" tetelestai (it is finished)," on the cross.
By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
We must make a distinction between doing works by itself, and works coupled with faith. It is simply not right to put works against faith. God gives us grace, and he expects us to make use of it to do good works. If we donÂ’t bear fruitÂ… well you know what happened to the fig tree that didnÂ’t bear fruit.
A man cannot save himself, but he still has to play his part. We perform works and penance because God commands it. ChristÂ’s death and rising is such that He took away the penalty of eternal hellfire for those who obey His will and accept His work as our Redeemer. But ChristÂ’s death did not abolish suffering. For every cause, there is effect. For every action, you can expect consequences to occur. It is like if a man is caught for theft, no matter how repentant he is, he still must pay the price, albeit a lesser one. Even if the judge thinks well of the defendant, the judge is bound by the law to dish out a sufficient penalty. The Lord is merciful, but he is also just. Sin creates disorder, and Justice corrects it. If one repents, good for him. But let him prove it.
Like I said, faith is not the end of the journey. You must have some action to back that faith up. Allow me to quote John Wesley.And, First, with regard to works of mercy. "Take heed," saith he,"that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: Otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." "That ye do not your alms:" -- Although this only is named, yet is every work of charity included, every thing which we give, or speak, or do, whereby our neighbour may be profited; whereby another man may receive any advantage, either in his body or soul. The feeding the hungry, the clothing the naked, the entertaining or assisting the stranger, the visiting those that are sick or in prison, the comforting the afflicted, the instructing the ignorant, the reproving the wicked, the exhorting and encouraging the well-doer; and if there be any other work of mercy, it is equally included in this direction.
He preaches that Christians must do both works of piety and works of mercy in order to move on toward Christian perfection. Simply put it, works without faith is useless, faith without works is useless. Let us not forget the most important part, which is Grace. To sum up, Grace saves, through faith and works. Never faith alone, never works alone. -
this definitly sums it upOriginally posted by SingaporeMacross:Let us not forget the most important part, which is Grace. To sum up, Grace saves, through faith and works. Never faith alone, never works alone. -
haha... doing good works is of course what will be expect of us if regeneration has taken place. that i wholeheartedly agree...
but as for doing penance for sins committed after accepting Jesus, that i would disagree. from what i do know, Catholism teaches that one must do penance to compensate for sins commited. that would deny the sufficency of Jesus's sacrifice wouldn't it? -
Allow me to differentiate between Eternal Atonement and Temporal Atonement. Eternal Atonement has been achieved by Jesus Christ and no further Eternal Atonement is possible (The gates of heaven is already open, how to open again?).Originally posted by ccck:haha... doing good works is of course what will be expect of us if regeneration has taken place. that i wholeheartedly agree...
but as for doing penance for sins committed after accepting Jesus, that i would disagree. from what i do know, Catholism teaches that one must do penance to compensate for sins commited. that would deny the sufficency of Jesus's sacrifice wouldn't it?
However, we must make Temporal Atonement. Looking back at the Old Testament, God forgave David for his sin concerning Uriah, but he still left David the temporal punishment of having his infant son die and having the sword pass through his house (2 Sam. 12:13ff). Similarly, when Moses struck the rock a second time God forgave him (for Moses was obviously one of the saved, as his appearance on the Mount of Transfiguration illustrates), though he still suffered the temporal penalty of not being allowed to go into the promised land (Num. 20:12). They had to pay in part for their sins, so why not us?
Is Jesus' sacrifice sufficient? Yes. We don't have to pay the eternal price if we repent. God forgives, but he wants us to learn from our mistakes via penance (temporal price). Penance is a form of discipline. Like all parents, God disciplines his children. Kindly refer to Heb. 12:5-13 which illustrates this.
Penance does not deny Jesus' sacrifice. We must make the effort to walk towards those pearly gates. -
MC think it's too chim for him.....
should go back and post his book of Thomas A Kempis. :rolls:
Cheers -
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. ” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
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Via pernance? What did you all normally do huh? How was the penance carried out? It makes me think that it is not God disciplining but human disciplining human leh... When Moses and David kanna discipline, God discipline them directly leh...Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Is Jesus' sacrifice sufficient? Yes. We don't have to pay the eternal price if we repent. God forgives, but he wants us to learn from our mistakes via penance (temporal price). [color=darkred]Penance is a form of discipline[/color]. Like all parents, God disciplines his children. Kindly refer to Heb. 12:5-13 which illustrates this.
Penance does not deny Jesus' sacrifice. We must make the effort to walk towards those pearly gates.
How to tell whether God carry out His disciplines on His children?
hmmm...... -
from catholic.com:
Paul tells us: "For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality" (Rom. 2:6–11; cf. Gal. 6:6–10).
In the second century, the technical Latin term for "merit" was introduced as a synonym for the Greek word for "reward." Thus merit and reward are two sides of the same coin.
Protestants often misunderstand the Catholic teaching on merit, thinking that Catholics believe that one must do good works to come to God and be saved. This is exactly the opposite of what the Church teaches. The Council of Trent stressed: "[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace" (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).
The Catholic Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense—mere man cannot (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007). The most merit humans can have is condign—when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus God’s grace and his promise form the foundation for all human merit (CCC 200
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Virtually all of this is agreed to by Protestants, who recognize that, under the impetus of God’s grace, Christians do perform acts which are pleasing to God and which God has promised to reward, meaning that they fit the definition of merit. When faced with this, Protestants are forced to admit the truth of the Catholic position—although, contrary to Paul’s command (2 Tim. 2:14), they may still dispute the terminology.
Thus the Lutheran Book of Concord admits: "We are not putting forward an empty quibble about the term ‘reward.’ . . . We grant that eternal life is a reward because it is something that is owed—not because of our merits [in the strict sense] but because of the promise [of God]. We have shown above that justification is strictly a gift of God; it is a thing promised. To this gift the promise of eternal life has been added" (p. 162).
The following passages illustrate what the Church Fathers had to say on the relationship between merit and grace. -
erm.. another common disagreementOriginally posted by happyharvest:“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. ” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
anyway
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. James 2:24 (niv) -
so who is right?Originally posted by ben1xy:erm.. another common disagreement
anyway
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. James 2:24 (niv) -
Oh... I'm aware of this ... So people normally put it that when you have faith (as ccck said, regeneration taken place), you should produce good works (i.e. produce fruits of the spirit) lo.Originally posted by ben1xy:erm.. another common disagreement
anyway
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. James 2:24 (niv)
Please see also: http://www.carm.org/diff/Eph2_8.htm
You may want to read this: http://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html -
yup yupOriginally posted by happyharvest:Oh... I'm aware of this ... So people normally put it that when you have faith (as ccck said, regeneration taken place), you should produce good works (i.e. produce fruits of the spirit) lo.
Please see also: http://www.carm.org/diff/Eph2_8.htm
You may want to read this: http://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html
read stuff similar to that before
but on a 2nd note: Oh... I'm aware of this ... So people normally put it that when you have faith (as ccck said, regeneration taken place), you should produce good works (i.e. produce fruits of the spirit) lo.
do we really see this? i have faith ... but i still sin... everyday if not every other day
i'm sure we r all guilty of this
would the arguement thus stand?
the flesh is weak i guess -
oo and i would to clarify one thing
Catholics do not work their way into heaven
its by Grace .. and we do understand that
but we pursue good works and not take grace for granted
i know the protestant stance.. its a circular arguement for both parties bah...
but yah.. juz to clarify that Catholics do not work their way into heaven -
Originally posted by ben1xy:yup yup
read stuff similar to that before
but on a 2nd note: Oh... I'm aware of this ... So people normally put it that when you have faith (as ccck said, regeneration taken place), you should produce good works (i.e. produce fruits of the spirit) lo.
do we really see this? i have faith ... but i still sin... everyday if not every other day
i'm sure we r all guilty of this
would the arguement thus stand?
the flesh is weak i guess
We are all sinners mah. Weak in the flesh though the spirit is willing...
We account to God lo, whether after you have faith in Christ and no fruits produced .... I still learning to produce good works lo. The number one fruit I want to produce is patience. With patience, all the other fruits can be produced easier. I see patience the most important fruit and with it the other 8 fruit can be more easier produced... -
Okie ...Originally posted by ben1xy:oo and i would to clarify one thing
Catholics do not work their way into heaven
its by Grace .. and we do understand that
but we pursue good works and not take grace for granted
i know the protestant stance.. its a circular arguement for both parties bah...
but yah.. juz to clarify that Catholics do not work their way into heaven
I guess every believers of Christ want to do good and pleases God ... -
yep!Originally posted by happyharvest:
We are all sinners mah. Weak in the flesh though the spirit is willing...
We account to God lo, whether after you have faith in Christ and no fruits produced .... I still learning to produce good works lo. The number one fruit I want to produce is patience. With patience, all the other fruits can be produced easier. I see patience the most important fruit and with it the other 8 fruit can be more easier produced... i agree with this -
definitely!Originally posted by happyharvest:Okie ...
I guess every believers of Christ want to do good and pleases God ... -
First, we confess serious sins to a priest. Penance consists of prayers, almsgiving, or if you like, invent your own.Originally posted by happyharvest:Via pernance? What did you all normally do huh? How was the penance carried out? It makes me think that it is not God disciplining but human disciplining human leh... When Moses and David kanna discipline, God discipline them directly leh...
How to tell whether God carry out His disciplines on His children?
hmmm......
God gives the Church the authority to discipline His children. Jesus gives St. Peter and the disciples the power and authority to "bind and loose" (Mt 16:19, 18:17-1. St. Paul imposes a penance for the well-being of a straying Christian (1 Cor 5:3-5). Later on, he issues an indulgence by lessening the temporal penance for sin of this same brother (2 Cor 2:6-11).