Fake Messiah.
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Sorry, as the previous thread is closed.
But i think the question is valid.
How do christians know whether the person is the real 2nd coming or a fake messiah? Is there a "test" as like widely known by the christian world, of differentiating the real from the fake?
Like as in LAW matter, they have like, the test for low IQ, or the litmus test etc?
Cuz, we know that there are many fake leaders around, including taiwan where fake religious leaders "charmed" their "followers" etc....
please answer without flaming..let's discuss this intelligibly.
my 2 cents worth. -
If you father went on an overseas trip, and two days later someone turn up in your house and claims to be your father, do you have a test for him?Originally posted by nightzip:Sorry, as the previous thread is closed.
But i think the question is valid.
How do christians know whether the person is the real 2nd coming or a fake messiah? Is there a "test" as like widely known by the christian world, of differentiating the real from the fake?
Like as in LAW matter, they have like, the test for low IQ, or the litmus test etc?
Cuz, we know that there are many fake leaders around, including taiwan where fake religious leaders "charmed" their "followers" etc....
please answer without flaming..let's discuss this intelligibly.
my 2 cents worth.
When you are given hundred pieces of fifty dollar bills, how do you know there are not fake?
It all depends how much you know about your true father, how well you recognise the original fifty dollar note, isn't it?
How well you know Jesus? Read the Bible. -
how to tell a fake LV wallet from a chiong one?
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And everyone will have their own perception and interpretation who is right? Using this logic, why should i even trust the christians in the first place?Originally posted by sgdiehard:If you father went on an overseas trip, and two days later someone turn up in your house and claims to be your father, do you have a test for him?
When you are given hundred pieces of fifty dollar bills, how do you know there are not fake?
It all depends how much you know about your true father, how well you recognise the original fifty dollar note, isn't it?
How well you know Jesus? Read the Bible.
The problem here is that many people THINK they know god, or worse acting god. -
when the majority of the more established churches come to a consensus? however, they may be wrong as well. therefore, it is all up to the person himself to make the decision between believing and not
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Well, you read your Bible and I read mine. Ppl respond to God differently, and thats why there are still so many non christians, though many went to mission schools, attended church, read the Bible.Originally posted by laurence82:And everyone will have their own perception and interpretation who is right? Using this logic, why should i even trust the christians in the first place?
The problem here is that many people THINK they know god, or worse acting god.
Do you see God in those who THINK they know God and those who act as God?
Look at God from the Bible, not at the christians, pls. -
U say one har.....Originally posted by sgdiehard:Well, you read your Bible and I read mine. Ppl respond to God differently, and thats why there are still so many non christians, though many went to mission schools, attended church, read the Bible.
Do you see God in those who THINK they know God and those who act as God?
Look at God from the Bible, not at the christians, pls.
I'll quote u next time some 'passionate' ones try to get one on me..... -
yoh....remember dun deviate from the topic lah....not talking about christians belief of God or Christians belief whether the God of real or not...
Let's say if someone setup a "cult" and say he is the saviour...blah blah blah...and exhibits "power" and can levitate and make people "faint" instantly etc, how do we know if he is authodox or unauthodox? or is really the savior?
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no deviation, if you know what we been talking abt, you get answers....Originally posted by nightzip:yoh....remember dun deviate from the topic lah....not talking about christians belief of God or Christians belief whether the God of real or not...
Let's say if someone setup a "cult" and say he is the saviour...blah blah blah...and exhibits "power" and can levitate and make people "faint" instantly etc, how do we know if he is authodox or unauthodox? or is really the savior? -
see if he makes another person sick in the process?Originally posted by nightzip:Let's say if someone setup a "cult" and say he is the saviour...blah blah blah...and exhibits "power" and can levitate and make people "faint" instantly etc, how do we know if he is authodox or unauthodox? or is really the savior?
That was how they found the truth about Situ Feren. -
see who is carrying them.Originally posted by NT2:how to tell a fake LV wallet from a chiong one? 
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Hi,Originally posted by nightzip:Sorry, as the previous thread is closed.
But i think the question is valid.
How do christians know whether the person is the real 2nd coming or a fake messiah? Is there a "test" as like widely known by the christian world, of differentiating the real from the fake?
Like as in LAW matter, they have like, the test for low IQ, or the litmus test etc?
Cuz, we know that there are many fake leaders around, including taiwan where fake religious leaders "charmed" their "followers" etc....
please answer without flaming..let's discuss this intelligibly.
my 2 cents worth.
Indications to your questions can be found in the Scripture.
Matthew Chapter 24. The Chapter tells you exactly step by step relevations of Christ's 2nd Coming. Anything out of that is fasle.
And also:
One part in 2 Peter which is worthy to note in this context:
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping." - 2 Peter 2: 1-3
The Lord has said that destruction will follow those who falsely propehcies. We know very well that the Lord holds on to this words. -
May i ask then?Originally posted by klydeer:Hi,
Indications to your questions can be found in the Scripture.
Matthew Chapter 24. The Chapter tells you exactly step by step relevations of Christ's 2nd Coming. Anything out of that is fasle.
And also:
One part in 2 Peter which is worthy to note in this context:
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping." - 2 Peter 2: 1-3
The Lord has said that destruction will follow those who falsely propehcies. We know very well that the Lord holds on to this words.
2 Peter 2:1-3
'Those false prophets' , 'they' are non believers or believers.
Which group of people was Peter referring to?
Are they a group of believers - then denying the Lord?
Or
Are they non believers denying the Lord?
Please answer this question directly.
Cheers -
I am aware, n am sad that there are christians who take christianity as a religion rather than a reconcilation with God the father and subsequently live a life that glorifies Him. But, this world is difficult and wicked, so have compassion and understanding, grace and forgiveness. Christians do fail sometimes, in fact many times.Originally posted by laurence82:U say one har.....
I'll quote u next time some 'passionate' ones try to get one on me..... 
If you read my posts here, I do not take side. If there are "over zealous" or "over passionate" believers spilling rubbish here, I will not be on their side.
but whether I am on your side of not will depend on what you say. 
I take this forum to know what others think, believers and non believers. Ultimately, each is entitled to his own view and opinion. I question, argue, debate just to test the different views, not to judge what is right or what is wrong. -
ok, so we know how to differentiate between fake religious leaders and the real ones?
take the AUM cult for example, and the british cults and the recent taiwan "dunno wat the name" cult, all manage to convince the worshippers and manage to consolidate hundreds even thousands of followers, only to have sex with the female followers, ask them to abort the babies, ask families to give and give to the temple/church, break up families, ask people to commit mass suicides etc.....
and seriously many of these religious leaders are EVEN MORE well versed in christian scriptures, buddhist scriptures etc then the common people, so how?
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Real and fake only difference is the fake destroys all who opposes him
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do you have faith in God?Originally posted by nightzip:yoh....remember dun deviate from the topic lah....not talking about christians belief of God or Christians belief whether the God of real or not...
Let's say if someone setup a "cult" and say he is the saviour...blah blah blah...and exhibits "power" and can levitate and make people "faint" instantly etc, how do we know if he is authodox or unauthodox? or is really the savior? -
erm. the bible says, that when the real jesus appear, everyone will be able to see him at the same time.
but if ppl tell u "the messiah is here in this place" or "that place" or watever. is fake one. -
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:erm. the bible says, that when the real jesus appear, everyone will be able to see him at the same time.
but if ppl tell u "the messiah is here in this place" or "that place" or watever. is fake one. The way you put across...machiam not sure like that.
How to convince others.
Cheers -
Hi there,Originally posted by M©+square:May i ask then?
2 Peter 2:1-3
'Those false prophets' , 'they' are non believers or believers.
Which group of people was Peter referring to?
Are they a group of believers - then denying the Lord?
Or
Are they non believers denying the Lord?
Please answer this question directly.
Cheers
This thought came to my heart as i read your question.
How could one be called a believer if he or she denies the Lord ? Denying the Lord means this person does not even believe in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ ?
My personal walk and experiences with the Lord suggest something like this: I do not think that a person can be a believer and yet deny the Lord. That thought in itself is touching the idea of belittling the sovereignty and Grace of God.
Here, i was given the impression that Peter is referring to non-believers - as the false prophets. The OT explains very much about who are the prophets chosen by God. When the Lord uses the word False - it hinges upon the works of the Devil - who is as we know the Master of Lies.
As much as the Lord looks into our heart, therewith our intentions. False prophets, as explained in Mark 13 and Matthew 24 and again in Peter 2 are those who intentionally misguide people arising out of their own agenda and nothing of God. I wouldnt call these - believers.
False prophets not only go against the will of God, but they twist the teachings of God as well. Read through Peter 2 and God's final judgement for the false teachers - he called them "brute beasts". Personally, i dont think the Lord refers them to be believers. The last statement is telling:
"A dog returns to its vomit, and, A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
i hoped i answered your question "directly" and do forgive my inequities.
Blessings. -
Appreciate your reply and thanks for your personal opinion on those verses mentioned.Originally posted by klydeer:Hi there,
This thought came to my heart as i read your question.
How could one be called a believer if he or she denies the Lord ? Denying the Lord means this person does not even believe in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ ?
My personal walk and experiences with the Lord suggest something like this: I do not think that a person can be a believer and yet deny the Lord. That thought in itself is touching the idea of belittling the sovereignty and Grace of God.
Here, i was given the impression that Peter is referring to non-believers - as the false prophets. The OT explains very much about who are the prophets chosen by God. When the Lord uses the word False - it hinges upon the works of the Devil - who is as we know the Master of Lies.
As much as the Lord looks into our heart, therewith our intentions. False prophets, as explained in Mark 13 and Matthew 24 and again in Peter 2 are those who intentionally misguide people arising out of their own agenda and nothing of God. I wouldnt call these - believers.
False prophets not only go against the will of God, but they twist the teachings of God as well. Read through Peter 2 and God's final judgement for the false teachers - he called them "brute beasts". Personally, i dont think the Lord refers them to be believers. The last statement is telling:
"A dog returns to its vomit, and, A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
i hoped i answered your question "directly" and do forgive my inequities.
Blessings.
_________
Maybe i'll just share my views on those verses.
1) Allow me to present John Calvin's version of 2 Peter 2:1-3
1 There were, however, false prophets also among the people; as there will also be false teachers among you, who will stealthily bring in opinions of perdition, denying even the Lord who has redeemed them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their ruinous courses, through whom the way of truth shall be blasphemed.
3 And through avarice they shall make a trade of you by feigned words; whose judgment a long ago ceases not, and whose perdition does not slumber.
________
2) The Amplified Version
2 Peter 2 (Amplified Bible)
1BUT ALSO [in those days] there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among yourselves, who will subtly and stealthily introduce heretical doctrines (destructive heresies), even denying and disowning the Master Who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many will follow their immoral ways and lascivious doings; because of them the true Way will be maligned and defamed.
3And in their covetousness (lust, greed) they will exploit you with false (cunning) arguments. From of old the sentence [of condemnation] for them has not been idle; their destruction (eternal misery) has not been asleep.
___________
3) May i also draw your attention to verse 20 - 22, esp verse 21?
John Calvin's Version
20For if they who had escaped from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, become again entangled with these, and are overcome, the last pollutions become worse to them than the former:
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it, and to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But what is said in the true proverb has happened to them, "The dog has returned to his own vomit, and the washen sow to her wallowing in the mire."Amplified Version
20For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through [the full, personal] knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again become entangled in them and are overcome, their last condition is worse [for them] than the first.
21For never to have obtained a [full, personal] knowledge of the way of righteousness would have been better for them than, having obtained [such knowledge], to turn back from the holy commandment which was [verbally] delivered to them.
22There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire.
__________
4) A very interesting commentary by John Calvin on verse 22 which quite obviously tells us which group does the 'false prophets' belongs to.
[[[He(Peter) quotes two ancient proverbs, the first of which is found as the saying of Solomon in Proverbs 26:11.
But what Peter meant is briefly this,
that the gospel is a medicine which purges us by wholesome vomiting, but that there are many dogs who swallow again what they have vomited to their own ruin; and that the gospel is also a laver which cleanses all our uncleanness, but that there are many swine who, immediately after washing, roll themselves again in the mud.
At the same time the godly are reminded to take heed to themselves, except they wish to be deemed dogs or swine.]]]
5) Contextually, i interprete those 'false prophets' and 'teachers' were Christians once.
interesting views you have, anyway
And, please do not apologise, we strive to learn and progress.
Thanks again.
MC. -
I think sgdiehard already provided a reasonable answer. Be diligently in reading and understanding the bible. It will help you understand and know who God is. Then it may help you in identifying false prophets.
Just to add, without wanting to throw the topic off course. It may depends on when you think Christ is reappearing? i.e. before, during or after tribulation? -
Thank you for the sharing as well, MC.Originally posted by M©+square:Appreciate your reply and thanks for your personal opinion on those verses mentioned.
_________
Maybe i'll just share my views on those verses.
1) Allow me to present John Calvin's version of 2 Peter 2:1-3
1 There were, however, false prophets also among the people; as there will also be false teachers among you, who will stealthily bring in opinions of perdition, denying even the Lord who has redeemed them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their ruinous courses, through whom the way of truth shall be blasphemed.
3 And through avarice they shall make a trade of you by feigned words; whose judgment a long ago ceases not, and whose perdition does not slumber.
________
2) The Amplified Version
2 Peter 2 (Amplified Bible)
1BUT ALSO [in those days] there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among yourselves, who will subtly and stealthily introduce heretical doctrines (destructive heresies), even denying and disowning the Master Who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many will follow their immoral ways and lascivious doings; because of them the true Way will be maligned and defamed.
3And in their covetousness (lust, greed) they will exploit you with false (cunning) arguments. From of old the sentence [of condemnation] for them has not been idle; their destruction (eternal misery) has not been asleep.
___________
3) May i also draw your attention to verse 20 - 22, esp verse 21?John Calvin's Version
20For if they who had escaped from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, become again entangled with these, and are overcome, the last pollutions become worse to them than the former:
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it, and to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But what is said in the true proverb has happened to them, "The dog has returned to his own vomit, and the washen sow to her wallowing in the mire."Amplified Version
20For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through [the full, personal] knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again become entangled in them and are overcome, their last condition is worse [for them] than the first.
21For never to have obtained a [full, personal] knowledge of the way of righteousness would have been better for them than, having obtained [such knowledge], to turn back from the holy commandment which was [verbally] delivered to them.
22There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire.
__________
4) A very interesting commentary by John Calvin on verse 22 which quite obviously tells us which group does the 'false prophets' belongs to.
[[[He(Peter) quotes two ancient proverbs, the first of which is found as the saying of Solomon in Proverbs 26:11.
But what Peter meant is briefly this,
that the gospel is a medicine which purges us by wholesome vomiting, but that there are many dogs who swallow again what they have vomited to their own ruin; and that the gospel is also a laver which cleanses all our uncleanness, but that there are many swine who, immediately after washing, roll themselves again in the mud.
At the same time the godly are reminded to take heed to themselves, except they wish to be deemed dogs or swine.]]]
5) Contextually, i interprete those 'false prophets' and 'teachers' were Christians once.
interesting views you have, anyway
And, please do not apologise, we strive to learn and progress.
Thanks again.
MC.
Well, when i read the life application bible for the explanation, it appears that what the Lord is warning us about, is also that even if we know the word, we can still face eternal judgement for twisting it with our own heart. Somehow, this could be linked to a deliberate dissociation with the Counselor - which means a total declaration of "disbelief". i really dont know. Satan knows the bible well enough - but i dont consider him a believer. The Pharisees knows the OT at the back of their hand - but do they believe ? Or are they just practicising what the world want to see ?
i could agree with you that false prophets can be onced Christians - but that "belief" broke when they chose to be. So situationally, i would rather say believers cannot be false prophets. They were - perhaps.
But to me, it still irks me much to think if this is remotely possible. i have seen many so called backsliders regaining in the embrace of the Lord - after 10, 20 and even 30 years !
That said, I think we all trust that the Lord's love is big enough - even for false prophets to come back to Him if they are willing. -
Ah. Those backsliders are the elected(?)Originally posted by klydeer:Thank you for the sharing as well, MC.
Well, when i read the life application bible for the explanation, it appears that what the Lord is warning us about, is also that even if we know the word, we can still face eternal judgement for twisting it with our own heart. Somehow, this could be linked to a deliberate dissociation with the Counselor - which means a total declaration of "disbelief". i really dont know. Satan knows the bible well enough - but i dont consider him a believer. The Pharisees knows the OT at the back of their hand - but do they believe ? Or are they just practicising what the world want to see ?
i could agree with you that false prophets can be onced Christians - but that "belief" broke when they chose to be. So situationally, i would rather say believers cannot be false prophets. They were - perhaps.
But to me, it still irks me much to think if this is remotely possible. i have seen many so called backsliders regaining in the embrace of the Lord - after 10, 20 and even 30 years !
That said, I think we all trust that the Lord's love is big enough - even for false prophets to come back to Him if they are willing.
False prophets could also be elected.
haha.
I must be crazy.
Cheers -
Elected for ......?Originally posted by M©+square:Ah. Those backsliders are the elected(?)
False prophets could also be elected.
haha.
I must be crazy.
Cheers
Not for me to comprehend i would think.
for me, i cannot even properly know people's heart.