Once saved always saved.
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Originally posted by sillyme:Stick to topic please.
Alo! I realised no more chatbox in EH anymore leh.
Cheers -
Alo! don't idle chat hereOriginally posted by M©+square: Alo! I realised no more chatbox in EH anymore leh.
Cheers
You start one lah... i want to start... but cannot spend time posting in the chatbox, so no good mah.. -
quick start lah. the month is ending .. *hint hint*Originally posted by sillyme:Alo! don't idle chat here
You start one lah... i want to start... but cannot spend time posting in the chatbox, so no good mah.. -
Hi Surfbabe,Originally posted by surfbabe:If the bible is right that God is a jealous God and can get angry, then I think God's not perfect either. Jealousy and anger are negative behavioural traits which can lead one to commit sin.
Believing in one's religion does not give one the right to show disrespect and intolerance towards other religions. It does not mean that you believe strongly in your God/religion that everyone has to do so too. Each and every individual has his/her right to believe in any religion or none at all. Who has the right to say that he/she is right and everyone is wrong? Can you guarantee that you're right? What if you're not? For example, many Christians believe that as a Christian, they will definitely go to heaven while non-believers will go straight to hell. Is that guaranteed? What if you don't end up in heaven despite being a Christian? Is this the reason why you are a Christian - so that you can go to heaven and not burn in hell?
No offence to anyone at all but it's fodder for thought.
You raised some interesting viewpoints.
“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God” (Exodus 20:4-5)
Do allow me to point out that in context, God's jealousy and anger stems from Perfect Righteousness, Justice and Love for us. Jealousy has Greek origins of the words Ardour and Zeal.
perhaps i can interest you to this link:
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=240
sorry i couldnt paste it here since it isnt my interpretations but i have found it useful for my personal understanding.
it does explain the root meaning of the word "Jealousy" in the NT and OT.
hope it raises some good fruits to your thoughts on this.
2nd point : Christianity is but a term. Faith comes from the heart and not merely through the words of the mouth. Those who have a geninue relationship with our Abba Father are themselves witnesses of the Way. There is indeed no need to "disrespect" others.
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Surfbabe, think you misread a lot of things, but one thing is for sure, as those who believe in God/Jesus grow in their faith, they begin to learn the things that are important to God and not man.
If you choose to believe in another way for your salvation like I said, you are very welcome to.
But on the subject of this topic. If you are saved, you are saved, like Chin Eng has said before, we are given a gift, we are free to choose to either accept this gift or reject it.
I believe in Jesus because of what He has done in my life, and also because I want to be assured of where I go when I die, I do not think that that is a wrong thing. I think that is the whole purpose for why people seek after so many spiritual things precisely because they want this assurance of where they go when they die. Like you said so yourself, you would love to have this assurance.... I do not subscribe to buddhism... been there don't believe in it, not for me... thank you. Since you bring up the topic of buddhism, the monks are also not as saintly as they claim to be.. there have been numerous stories of monks doing things they were not meant to be doing, but does buddhism cop the same amount of flack that Christians get?
When you talk about Christians knowingly committing sin.. and confessing their sin, it says in the bible that if we confess our sins, we are forgiven. But please do not take this as a licence to sin.. please do not pick on the small number of Christians who do this and generalise it for the whole. I think that as Christians we are all conscious of sin, the thing for me as a Christian is that if I sin, I know that if I confess it to God, He will forgive me. Look at it this way, if you are a parent and your child did something wrong and came and confessed it to you, you would forgive him/her would you not? Same with God as His children, we get that treatment too...
You fail to see the point about salvation, it is only through Jesus, by accepting God's gift not through works or how nice you are... look at Paul he began life against all that Jesus was teaching... but he ended it one of the most devoted to Jesus/God.
You also miss the point... the ten commandments were given under law, by accepting Jesus's offer of salvation, we are under grace. Under jewish law, when someone sinned against God, there was required a sacrifice for the sin, Jesus is this sacrifice for us, the perfect sacrifice once and for all so that all who accept Him as Lord and Saviour are saved by God's grace because He realised that man could not keep all the commandments... that our hearts were "evil".
Don't get me wrong, I love God for who He is, but I also want to be assured of where I am going when I die... Jesus gives me that assurance, you have to be able to separate the issues, which I think you have trouble doing. My love for God and my wanting assurance about where I go when I die are two totally separate issues. The fact that I have this assurance from God makes me love Him even more, that He would love me so much that He would send His son to die in my place so that I can be assured of a place in Heaven... the gratefulness that I feel is indescribable...
No Christianity is not a religion, it is a personal relationship with God, define it how you will but to me, a religion cannot save me, God/Jesus can and it is this relationship that I am developing and growing in everyday. -
The doctrine is soo biblical.Originally posted by fallin:Who believes in thsi doctrine? Why?
Salvation is based on the Lord's complete and perfect sacrifice for sins past, present and future sins.
Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand
Question: "John 10:28 says that they shall never perish and neither shall anyone snatch them out of MY hand......no third party can take away the believer from God's hands........but what if the believer himself will jump out of that hand?"
That is not possible. You see that word up there 'perish'? You see in the original Greek, the word is in the middle voice. There are three voices in Greek: the active voice, the passive voice and the middle voice.
Active voice is an action done by the subject to another person or thing.
Example: i punch Jason.
"I" was the doer of the action. Jason got the recieving end of my actiion. I was active in doing the action.
Passive voice is an action done by someone to me.
Example: i was punched by Jason
I did nothing but was only the reciever of Jason's punch.
Middle voice is an action done by the subject to himself.
Example: I punched myself.
In Greek the word perish is in the middle voice........so the more accurate translation of the verse 28 is:
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish themselves; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand
Yup they shall never perish themselves. They wont jump out of God's hand.
That's in line with the saving Grace the New Covenant has:
Jer 32:39 'then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them.
40 'And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me.
This maybe maybe a covenant primarily directed to Israel but during this dispensation the beneficiaries of the New Covenant is the Church [Christians].
Seeming verses in the Bible which seem to contradict this doctrine is just apparent not real contradiction to the doctrine of eternal security. Verses like Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10 , 2 Peter 2 and 1 John 2 and etc. -
Count me in.
Basically God is the one who called, and those he called he brought to faith, justified and then glorified. -
Hmmm quite alot of people here believes in predestination.
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how about we hear the other side?
Why Not predestination? -
ah ok paiseh. i read the previous pages already ...
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Originally posted by surfbabe:
A common misconception. Jealousy and anger are negative behavioural traits insomuch as defined by some people. In itself, jealousy and anger is a state of mind that occured due to exterior stimuli - no different from happiness and contentment. An emotional state is neither good or bad - it is basically amoral.
If the bible is right that God is a jealous God and can get angry, then I think God's not perfect either. Jealousy and anger are negative behavioural traits which can lead one to commit sin.
Whether such emotional state will LEAD you to sin or not is another question. Likewise, an uncontrolled state of euphoria may also not be wise. There people who believe that Jesus can get angry because it is "righteous anger" - what in the world is that?
Jealousy can lead us to treasure our loved ones more,
Anger can be channled into a positive course of action to remedy a negative situation.
In itself, jealousy and anger is neither positive nor negative.
From the unbeliever's standpoint, the above argument is correct. I am a strong advocate on not being disrespectful to people of another faith.
Believing in one's religion does not give one the right to show disrespect and intolerance towards other religions. It does not mean that you believe strongly in your God/religion that everyone has to do so too. Each and every individual has his/her right to believe in any religion or none at all. Who has the right to say that he/she is right and everyone is wrong? Can you guarantee that you're right? What if you're not? For example, many Christians believe that as a Christian, they will definitely go to heaven while non-believers will go straight to hell. Is that guaranteed? What if you don't end up in heaven despite being a Christian? Is this the reason why you are a Christian - so that you can go to heaven and not burn in hell?
No offence to anyone at all but it's fodder for thought.
From the believer's standpoint, however, means that we have to believe what we believe to be true - otherwise why believe? As such Christians have the right to insist that our believe is true - at least to ourselves. This said - Christians should embrace all the doctrines, including the concept of heaven and hell. Whether a person becomes a Christian so that he can go to heaven is a personal question, but I guess it is more likely for a Christian will admit that the reason for being a Christian because God first loved us.
I am aware that not many Christian share my next statement: I do not believe that Christians should insist that everybody should share the same belief.
We are free to believe in what we believe.
If this journey brings me to God - good. If this journey brings me to nothingness - it does not matter to me or anyone else. If this journey brings me to another God - I will let this other deity deal with me as he/she/it sees fit. -
.. just like how Kuang Tianyou became super saiya man at end of MDAV II?Originally posted by Chin Eng:Anger can be channled into a positive course of action to remedy a negative situation
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I can never be bothered watching the showOriginally posted by Icemoon:.. just like how Kuang Tianyou became super saiya man at end of MDAV II?
Its dumb right from the first episode -
Originally posted by klydeer:
“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God” (Exodus 20:4-5)
The status of Jesus Christ and Mother Mary can be found in many churches. Isn't this considered "worshipping idols"? And just because the statues are shaped in the likeliness of Jesus Christ and Mother Mary, does this make it acceptable in the context of Christianity?Do allow me to point out that in context, God's jealousy and anger stems from Perfect Righteousness, Justice and Love for us. Jealousy has Greek origins of the words Ardour and Zeal.
So if a man does something (e.g. punishes someone) because of his anger and/or jealousy which stems from righteousness, justice and love, does that make it right and acceptable? Or is it judged differently because the man is not God?2nd point : Christianity is but a term. Faith comes from the heart and not merely through the words of the mouth. Those who have a geninue relationship with our Abba Father are themselves witnesses of the Way. There is indeed no need to "disrespect" others.
Buddhists also say that Buddhism is not a religion but more a philosophy on life. But unlike Christianity which focuses on strength of faith and revolves around God, Buddhism focuses on moral conduct, principles and beliefs. It also teaches one to be independent as karma is gained through personal deeds and conduct. Not on God or anyone else to bring one to heaven. But on oneself to help him/her cross over to nirvana. One can have a personal relationship with Buddha just as with God. But he cannot guarantee you a place in heaven. Just as you cannot be guaranteed a place in heaven just because of Christianity (please note this - it is very important). But Buddha is a teacher - he teaches you to help yourself. He doesn't want nor expect you to focus on Him or any of his disciple Buddhas. He doesn't want nor expect you to put Him on a pedestal and praise Him everyday. He wants you to focus on yourself and those around you, and to make yourself a better person for the present and the future. -
The statues of JC and Mary can ONLY be found in Roman Catholic churches. You will never find even a picture of anyone of them in a Protestant church. As always, I will not want to go into the discussion on the similarities and differences of RCs and Protestants.Originally posted by surfbabe:The status of Jesus Christ and Mother Mary can be found in many churches. Isn't this considered "worshipping idols"? And just because the statues are shaped in the likeliness of Jesus Christ and Mother Mary, does this make it acceptable in the context of Christianity?
It all depends on how a deed is done. It is not as simple as: I am angry, I punish someone, period. Giving a real example, my child errs, I get angry, I punish him, it is NOT because I am angry that I punish my child, but the desire to implement corrective action. Yes anger was present, but anger was not the reason. The same can be said for jealousy.Originally posted by surfbabe:So if a man does something (e.g. punishes someone) because of his anger and/or jealousy which stems from righteousness, justice and love, does that make it right and acceptable? Or is it judged differently because the man is not God?
This part I agree, but the context of this thread is under the umbrella of EH, primarily a Christian forum, and the concept of salvation is argued/discussed under the philosophy, theology and worldview of Christianity.Originally posted by surfbabe:Buddhists also say that Buddhism is not a religion but more a philosophy on life. But unlike Christianity which focuses on strength of faith and revolves around God, Buddhism focuses on moral conduct, principles and beliefs. It also teaches one to be independent as karma is gained through personal deeds and conduct. Not on God or anyone else to bring one to heaven. But on oneself to help him/her cross over to nirvana. One can have a personal relationship with Buddha just as with God. But he cannot guarantee you a place in heaven. Just as you cannot be guaranteed a place in heaven just because of Christianity (please note this - it is very important). But Buddha is a teacher - he teaches you to help yourself. He doesn't want nor expect you to focus on Him or any of his disciple Buddhas. He doesn't want nor expect you to put Him on a pedestal and praise Him everyday. He wants you to focus on yourself and those around you, and to make yourself a better person for the present and the future. -
Originally posted by surfbabe:
I do not believe anyone can be 'independent' and earn his merits through personal deeds and conduct. Ever since the fall of man, we are conceited in believing we can do without God, that we can help/save ourselves. These are all lies which Satan wants us to believe.
Buddhists also say that Buddhism is not a religion but more a philosophy on life. But unlike Christianity which focuses on strength of faith and revolves around God, Buddhism focuses on moral conduct, principles and beliefs. It also teaches one to be independent as karma is gained through personal deeds and conduct. Not on God or anyone else to bring one to heaven. But on oneself to help him/her cross over to nirvana. One can have a personal relationship with Buddha just as with God. But he cannot guarantee you a place in heaven. Just as you cannot be guaranteed a place in heaven just because of Christianity (please note this - it is very important).]
I believe that Salvation is through Christ and Christ alone.But Buddha is a teacher - he teaches you to help yourself. He doesn't want nor expect you to focus on Him or any of his disciple Buddhas. He doesn't want nor expect you to put Him on a pedestal and praise Him everyday. He wants you to focus on yourself and those around you, and to make yourself a better person for the present and the future.
I believe we become better persons to reflect the goodness of Christ, not becoz we want to gain merits. -
welcome back laoda... clap clap clap
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:welcome back laoda... clap clap clap
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heh.. interesting discussions guys.
Salvation is of the Lord.
For those who do not stand for the doctrine, they will also pt out the various evidence from the bible.
Can be quite a never ending debate on this issue. heh. Let it not be a stumbling block to your faith dear brothers and sisters.