Once saved always saved.
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Originally posted by Icemoon:zhun boh? I thought you from Anglican Church one?
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Being a Christian gives some Christians a false sense of assurance that no matter what they do, they will be saved just based on their faith in God. So they will still enter the gates of Heaven.
Such Christians should wake up and realise that if so, it'll be grossly unfair to non-Christians who have led a relatively honest life, yet be thrown into hell for not being a Christian member.
No matter what religion you are, you will still have to face judgement after death to account for what you've done in your lifetime on Earth. No guaranteed path to heaven, mind you. -
When it says to forgive seventy times seven times, it doesn't literally mean four hundred and ninety times only. Luke 17:3-4 also speaks of the forgiveness. God will always forgive if you repent.
I don't subscribe to once saved, always saved. If the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) decided to leave home again after he returned, I don't think he will get his inheritance. It is only if he repents again and return home will his father welcome him again. And forgive, the father will.
There will then come a time when the father decides to give out his inheritance. And if the son has not return, he will have missed the chance. That is when judgement day happens.
It may seem unjustifiable or even absurd that we are given this grace to fall over again and again. But we can never comprehend God's grace. Even then, there lies a danger. We may grow "immune" to this grace that we just decide to give up. So be wary of "growing tired". Let's press on to the trophy God has set for us!
Another thing to point out. I think we are God's children regardless if we believe in Him. -
The genuine conversion is the main topic here. The "once saved" is really saved or not, depend on whether the conversion is genuine or not.Originally posted by M©+square:Woah. Genuine conversion is another whole new topic altogether.
It is only when "once saved" is really saved then "always saved" make sense.
Are Christians, or those who call themselves Christians saved? I know of many who want to become christians because their girl friends are christians; some got baptised because they wanted to solemnized their wedding in church, more grand; some become church members to extend their network for MLM.... are they really saved? it is not for anybody to judge for only God knows their hearts.
Many may not know the true meaning of salvation when they were baptised but later they became truely children of God because of their subsequent encounters with God. Many new believers wanted to be missionaries in distant land and were even prepared to be martyr, but later you find them busily doing their own business. Are they saved? Only God knows their heart.
Christians are certainly not sinless, or not capable to sin; in fact, christians are more prone to sin because now we know what are sins. Christians who sin brings shame to God and are worse than non christians who sin for they know not what they do. But whether christians continue to sin because of our inherently weaknesses, or are we testing the patience of God, only God knows.
God is the one who know your hearts. How hard you try not to sin? are you taking advantage and make a fool of His grace? only He knows, you think you can fool him?
Non Christians should look to Jesus on what to do and not to do. Christians are not good examples of Jesus Christ, no matter what posts they hold in their churches. Christians who misbehave are no excuse for non believers to ignore their own salvation.
Once we become God's children, we are always His children, He loves, cares and disciplines His children. -
As long you have faith in God and that you are only worshipping God alone... yes.. you will be saved... but you may not have a reward, you definitely will not get to rule and reign. But if you are worshipping many gods and Jesus is just one of them, then you will not. For our God is a jealous God!Originally posted by surfbabe:Being a Christian gives some Christians a false sense of assurance that no matter what they do, they will be saved just based on their faith in God. So they will still enter the gates of Heaven.
Such Christians should wake up and realise that if so, it'll be grossly unfair to non-Christians who have led a relatively honest life, yet be thrown into hell for not being a Christian member.
No matter what religion you are, you will still have to face judgement after death to account for what you've done in your lifetime on Earth. No guaranteed path to heaven, mind you.
What is the point of being a Christian if we do not then have that assurance that we are saved. It is the whole crux of Jesus dying on the cross for our salvation!That is why we believe in Him and therefore have this very very strong assurance of our salvation!
In John14:1-6
John 14
The Way, the Truth, and the Life
1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions;[a] if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[b] 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Jesus is the only way to God, hence to Heaven. We are saved by Grace and not works... works cannot save you....
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:11-22
Brought Near by His Blood
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Christ Our Peace
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Christ Our Cornerstone
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
To answer the question, no i do not think that it is grossly unfair to non-christians who have led a fair life... if these people have heard the gospel and have rejected it, they have already been given the choice and they have chosen not to believe, if you reject Jesus, He will also reject you before the Father.... if you think that works can save you, then you are grossly mistaken. That is why we are saved by grace... for a non-christian to be saved by works, he must keep the full extent of the law.... perfectly. Unless he can, he will definitely not be saved because all non-christians will be judged according to the law.... and none of us are sinless.
Christians will also stand before the judgement throne, but because we have accepted Jesus as our saviour, the things recorded against us will be blotted out...
Matthew 1:21, Jesus will save us from our sins
Isaiah 1 :18... our sins though they be as scarlet... they shall be white as snow...
One thing I have to make clear to you is that Christianity is not a religion, it is a personal relationship with GOD.THE WHOLE CRUX ABOUT BELIEVING IN JESUS IS THE GUARANTEE THAT WE WILL BE IN HEAVEN. If you think that this is not the way for you, you can choose to disagree, but for any Christian, we have this assurance because we believe! Wouldn't you want that kind of assurance? -
Woah!!! Now we're talking.Originally posted by sgdiehard:The genuine conversion is the main topic here. The "once saved" is really saved or not, depend on whether the conversion is genuine or not.
It is only when "once saved" is really saved then "always saved" make sense.
Are Christians, or those who call themselves Christians saved? I know of many who want to become christians because their girl friends are christians; some got baptised because they wanted to solemnized their wedding in church, more grand; some become church members to extend their network for MLM.... are they really saved? it is not for anybody to judge for only God knows their hearts.
Many may not know the true meaning of salvation when they were baptised but later they became truely children of God because of their subsequent encounters with God. Many new believers wanted to be missionaries in distant land and were even prepared to be martyr, but later you find them busily doing their own business. Are they saved? Only God knows their heart.
Christians are certainly not sinless, or not capable to sin; in fact, christians are more prone to sin because now we know what are sins. Christians who sin brings shame to God and are worse than non christians who sin for they know not what they do. But whether christians continue to sin because of our inherently weaknesses, or are we testing the patience of God, only God knows.
God is the one who know your hearts. How hard you try not to sin? are you taking advantage and make a fool of His grace? only He knows, you think you can fool him?
Non Christians should look to Jesus on what to do and not to do. Christians are not good examples of Jesus Christ, no matter what posts they hold in their churches. Christians who misbehave are no excuse for non believers to ignore their own salvation.
Once we become God's children, we are always His children, He loves, cares and disciplines His children.
Please note that 'Genuine Conversion Converts' CAN fall away from Grace.
Fall away meaning - delibrately denying God and disobedience; rejecting Jesus as a saviour and Christ.
Genuine Conversion can assure a few points to a convert
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1 Deeper hunger for knowledge of God
2 Less likely to be distracted easily, hence falling away
3 Ability to understand God's word faster
4 Ability to sense God's work faster
5 Ability to walk closer with Holy Spirit
6 Manifestation of the Fruits of Spirit evident
What Genuine Conversion cannot guarantee
-:
1 Pre destined events of the convert and things around him/her
2 God's sovereign plans in convert's life
3 Outcome of convert's end
4 If the convert will sin or not
5 Response thru events which happen
However, i conclude. According to the bible. Just as long as you've proclaim and accept that Jesus Christ is the Lord and savior of your life. You are saved. Period.
What happens after that is between God and him.
Cheers -
Let me find out this topic about Genuine Conversion by Jonathan Edwards.
Once Saved always Saved is a doctrine. A belief.
Genuine Conversion is not a doctrine.
Cheers -
Salvation is a gift from God and since it does not depend on us. It is not for us as believers to loose it.
The fact that salvation can be loosed only goes to show that this God is a petty and fussy God because He will confiscate that gift of salvation He has given because some people fall into sin.
Another thing we must clarify is that what is the condition you think salvation will be lost? Living in sin? or what?
i say again. Salvation cannot be lost. It is not mine to demand and certainly not mine to loose it. God's salvation is fully efficacious whether or not with our maintenance up keep. -
The parable of prodigal son is to illustrate the grace of the father, that he forgives no matter how. How our father value his lost children is illustrated with the parable of the lost sheeps (Luke 18:12-14). God never gives up on his children. The only way when a christian loses his salvation is when he turns to worship idols, that is when he knowingly, and willingly, crucifying Jesus on the cross a second time.Originally posted by sillyme:When it says to forgive seventy times seven times, it doesn't literally mean four hundred and ninety times only. Luke 17:3-4 also speaks of the forgiveness. God will always forgive if you repent.
I don't subscribe to once saved, always saved. If the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) decided to leave home again after he returned, I don't think he will get his inheritance. It is only if he repents again and return home will his father welcome him again. And forgive, the father will.
There will then come a time when the father decides to give out his inheritance. And if the son has not return, he will have missed the chance. That is when judgement day happens.
It may seem unjustifiable or even absurd that we are given this grace to fall over again and again. But we can never comprehend God's grace. Even then, there lies a danger. We may grow "immune" to this grace that we just decide to give up. So be wary of "growing tired". Let's press on to the trophy God has set for us!
Another thing to point out. I think we are God's children regardless if we believe in Him.
All mankind are created in the image of God but only the Jews are His chosen people; many ppl believe in God but only those who accept Jesus Christ receive salvation and become His children. What is the point of believing in Him if believers and non believers are all His children? and what is the point of being called His children if some of His children will end up in hell?
What goes on in a christian, from his first acceptance of salvation till the day he die can varies very much but who is to say finally if we goes to heaven? What is important is how christians should live our life on earth, whether we should live with firm belief that we will go to heaven when we die or have that constant fear in us that our salvation may someday disappear because we sometimes sin against God unintentionally and unknowingly or we offended our brothers and we die without the chance to say sorry.
I don't want to argue with those who think that by the grace of God they can continue to sin, they are kidding themselves, but I do want to highlight that the price of our redemption is paid by Jesus on the cross, and we only need to accept it and be saved, it is not what we do or don't do till the day we die to ensure that we are finally 'saved'.
cheers. -
No disagreement on the "CAN FALL away from Grace". The important thing here is that denying, denouncing and disobeying are "deliberate" . We certainly wont find anybody in heaven who said "I choose not to come but I don't know why I ended up here."Originally posted by M©+square:Woah!!! Now we're talking.
Please note that 'Genuine Conversion Converts' CAN fall away from Grace.
Fall away meaning - delibrately denying God and disobedience; rejecting Jesus as a saviour and Christ.
Genuine Conversion can assure a few points to a convert
-:
1 Deeper hunger for knowledge of God
2 Less likely to be distracted easily, hence falling away
3 Ability to understand God's word faster
4 Ability to sense God's work faster
5 Ability to walk closer with Holy Spirit
6 Manifestation of the Fruits of Spirit evident
What Genuine Conversion cannot guarantee
-:
1 Pre destined events of the convert and things around him/her
2 God's sovereign plans in convert's life
3 Outcome of convert's end
4 If the convert will sin or not
5 Response thru events which happen
However, i conclude. According to the bible. Just as long as you've proclaim and accept that Jesus Christ is the Lord and savior of your life. You are saved. Period.
What happens after that is between God and him.
Cheers
Just want to highlight that salvation is a life membership as long as you accept it, members' privileges will not lapse because we forget to pay subscription. Of course, you can choose to send the card back say I don't want to be member.
Fully agree with your conclusion in the last paragraph on salvation and what happens after.... .
But those in between, hmm.....to discuss we may need to define what is "genuine" and what kind of conversion are genuine conversion. This is very qim theological terms. If you find some articles on this issue I will be happy to read but I can't, or won't argue with you.
cheers. -
Salvation is a gift from God and since it does not depend on us. It is not for us as believers to loose it.
Yes, salvation is a gift from God, but bear in mind that like in any other gifts, it has firstly to be RECEIVED.
I don't think God is petty. He did not CONFISCATE that gift, mankind can RETURN the gift. The issue is not about SIN per se, but by the rejection of the gift, sin has got nothing to do with it.
The fact that salvation can be loosed only goes to show that this God is a petty and fussy God because He will confiscate that gift of salvation He has given because some people fall into sin.
Let's face it, we are all living in sin, like it or not.
Another thing we must clarify is that what is the condition you think salvation will be lost? Living in sin? or what?
I had an evil though today - sin,
I got angry with my boss - sin,
I over-ate - sin.
Again - it is not about sin, it's about rejection of God.
So if a Christian decided today to be Buddhist monk, you think he'd still have salvation...???
i say again. Salvation cannot be lost. It is not mine to demand and certainly not mine to loose it. God's salvation is fully efficacious whether or not with our maintenance up keep.
Ultimately, the argument goes back to - what is genuine conversion? But this is an unanswerable question because, if a person dies a Christian, he has genuine converstion while a person leave the faith, his conversion is deemed not genuine? I don't know - this is oversimplifying the conversion question.
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I fully agree to this statement. We need to note what is required of us - to proclaim and accept JC as our Lord.Originally posted by M©+square:However, i conclude. According to the bible. Just as long as you've proclaim and accept that Jesus Christ is the Lord and savior of your life. You are saved. Period.
My conviction is that once this acceptance and proclamation ceases, salvation no longer applies to this individual. -
The link below has a well-written dealin with this issue. The writer argues from both sides but offers his OPINION, which is he does not believe that salvation can be lost.
http://www.carm.org/questions/lose_salvation.htm
He ends the article without a conclusion, but has the following statement for us to consider:
Unfortunately, this topic has caused far too much friction in the church today. My hope is that people who disagree, can learn to live harmoniously with their eyes on Jesus. -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
This is where I don't understand, why should such issue cause any friction?
[b]Unfortunately, this topic has caused far too much friction in the church today. My hope is that people who disagree, can learn to live harmoniously with their eyes on Jesus.[/b]
so what if we believe that Once Saved Always Saved? feel free to sin?
so what if we don't believe? work hard, be holy to keep your salvation? -
Actually I have no problems with people disagreeing with me or do not share the same view. It's just that I have seen to many passionate Christians who keep insisting their view is the ONLY view.Originally posted by sgdiehard:This is where I don't understand, why should such issue cause any friction?
so what if we believe that Once Saved Always Saved? feel free to sin?
so what if we don't believe? work hard, be holy to keep your salvation?
I have no wish of seeing this particular topic turned into a Christian vs Christian war of words and counter-challenges. Such things can happen because of the passion we have with our faith. -
This is evident in EH.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Actually I have no problems with people disagreeing with me or do not share the same view. It's just that I have seen to many passionate Christians who keep insisting their view is the ONLY view.
I have no wish of seeing this particular topic turned into a Christian vs Christian war of words and counter-challenges. Such things can happen because of the passion we have with our faith.
Sick. -
Sometimes, I would rather befriend humble free thinkers or buddhists than arrogant christians.
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No, I am not expecting you or anybody to agree with me.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Actually I have no problems with people disagreeing with me or do not share the same view. It's just that I have seen to many passionate Christians who keep insisting their view is the ONLY view.
I have no wish of seeing this particular topic turned into a Christian vs Christian war of words and counter-challenges. Such things can happen because of the passion we have with our faith. I am simply putting up my point and watch for other views. Once I see arguments begin to repeat itself, I stop.
Passion alone is dangerous. Paul cautioned that even as"...surrender my body to the flames", (a little bit like those muslim extremists), but if we have not love, we got nothing. I have been far too much of misplaced passion even within the same church, Christian war of words even include the war on the Words, "is KJV more authentic or more accurate than NIV?' Cannot tahan leh.
breytonhartge is absolutely right, "Christianity is not a religion, it is a personal relationship with GOD". There are too much about religion, theology, and doctrine and there are too little "what would Jesus think, what would Jesus do" and "what would glorify God."
Have a good day. -
i think.... Christians tend to be more energetic when it comes to discussing about religions stuff, cuz they strongly believe in the existance of GOD and will not tolerate any other beliefs in their presenceOriginally posted by eternal hope:Sometimes, I would rather befriend humble free thinkers or buddhists than arrogant christians. 
however i believe everyone of us has our own ideas and beliefs and should not be converted or simply talked into changing a religion simply a good friend or relative is a devoted person of a particular religion , To be saved once is enough, not everytime -
YES.Originally posted by WiNtEr'SkiLL:To be saved once is enough, not everytime -
yup of course.
Saved and always saved or not?
let us understand and ask ourselves wat is our intentiona to know?
So that we can slip back into sin and lawlessness? or just another christian response to people converiting from Christianity to other religion and trying to provide a logical answer.
my personal calvinistic view on this topic is not on human and wat they can or cannot do to maintain salvation. Just because I trust that God is Soverign and keeper of covenant. -
IMO, a believer should have a sound balance of 'Passion' and 'knowledge of the Word and God' - it could be doctrine/theology/scriptures.Originally posted by sgdiehard:No, I am not expecting you or anybody to agree with me. I am simply putting up my point and watch for other views. Once I see arguments begin to repeat itself, I stop.
Passion alone is dangerous. Paul cautioned that even as"...surrender my body to the flames", (a little bit like those muslim extremists), but if we have not love, we got nothing. I have been far too much of misplaced passion even within the same church, Christian war of words even include the war on the Words, "is KJV more authentic or more accurate than NIV?' Cannot tahan leh.
breytonhartge is absolutely right, "Christianity is not a religion, it is a personal relationship with GOD". There are too much about religion, theology, and doctrine and there are too little "what would Jesus think, what would Jesus do" and "what would glorify God."
Have a good day.
A believer should be careful of themselves and watchful over themselves if they've 'over - displayed or imposed' their faith onto their fellow believers. If a believer happened to misplace that 'passion of faith' and got their actions into undesired result.
More or less, there is something wrong in that person's belief system.
I've debated over table with a few personal friends over Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine, which was very popular in one of the Singapore church and most friends embraced that doctrine about four, five years ago.
They've insisted their doctrine is the right one and 'no matter what you do(carefully not mentioning Acts of Sin) God only sees your mediator and you're perfect'.
Oh well, different emphasis of verses begets different interpretation.
Heard too much of it, until these doctrines became like vomit...once you heard of wrong doctrines or wrong quotation of scripture, all these feelings felt like vomit.
Passion is so powerful, to have a believer to believe what he's doing is right even though he might have wandered off track.
Knowledge is so powerful, that it'll lead a believer to believe himself to know all.
These two need to compliment each other, to have sound Knowledge and also need fervent passion to fuel the Walk with God.
This i believe is on Men's part to work it out. Holy Spirit will impart whatever which he should and he wants.
Too little? "what would Jesus think, what would Jesus do" and "what would glorify God."
- Too much of these will lead to romanticism/emotionalism - which is evident in most Charismatic movements(church). But of course, one should reflect him/herself upon the word and the glory of God.
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NT2 could share somethings about his former nick on this point?
(sorry NT2, not imply anything negetive about you. I think you have some reflections and dropped some of your practises aside? )
Would you be surprise if i tell you that, there are much more Passionate Christians around compared to Knowledgeable(doctrined based) Christians around?
Passion indeed has been misplaced.
Why? Personal Answer - No sound knowledge of the word.
Soundness and Balance and Holy Spirit and Scripture are the keywords.
Cheers -
wat abt my former nick? haha
Perserverance of the Saints (aka Once saved always saved) is not the same as Anti-normianism leh -
So is this conditional love or unconditional love?
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I think your question is too vague, in what aspects are you talking about?Originally posted by zenhora:So is this conditional love or unconditional love?
I see a few diversons of topic here.
Cheers