can you accept if your child
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Yeah. I have read the bibles many time. No where did I find a phrase that suggested Jesus was against homosexuality.Originally posted by M©+square:By whose claim do you stand?
Have you studied the bible?
Do you understand the doctrine of the written word?
This brings me to another question: DO you really understand the word oor the stories of the bible? -
Tsk, tsk... I pity you... you read the bible many times but never read Old Testament izzit?Originally posted by shade343:Yeah. I have read the bibles many time. No where did I find a phrase that suggested Jesus was against homosexuality.
This brings me to another question: DO you really understand the word oor the stories of the bible?
LEVITICUS 20:13 (NIV) - IF A MAN LIES WITH A MAN AS ONE LIES WITH A WOMAN, BOTH OF THEM HAVE DONE WHAT IS DETESTABLE. THEY MUST BE PUT TO DEATH...
Romans 1:27 (NIV) - In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and receievd in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. -
If homosexuality isn't a sin, the bible wouldn't use the word "indecent" and "perversion"..
People who experience homosexuality feelings and urges have deeper, unresolved issues that they may have gone through as a child, which affected them greatly in the area of their emotional and psychological well-being. I don't deny that they can't help feeling the way they do... in fact, I won't condemn a gay if I meet one... but I wouldn't want a gay friend to think that it's just natural for him to feel the way he does, so he'll just have to live with it for the rest of his life. That's a lie from Satan! Poison is still poison even if I pour it into a beautiful bottle and label it "pure orange juice"
The conclusion is: homosexuality was never in God's idea in the first place. It's something that is contrary to His perfect will. And somehow, I've never heard of animals who are homosexuals. This seem to only plague the human race.. due to the fall of man, i.e. SIN.
The ongoing debate of whether homosexuality is wrong is simply pointless. The question is whether gay and lesbians know that there's healing and deliverance in Jesus Christ? And I'm not talking abt deliverance as in excorcism.. but counseling...
There was a pastor called Sinclair Rogers who was once a gay himself and almost went for a sex change operation but his life was dramatically transformed when he knew Jesus Christ. You can read more about him in http://www.syrogers.com/ -
As a parent, it is our resposibility on the upbringing of the child. The christian foundation must be laid from day 1. Educate the child & you not have to face this problem.
However, if due to unforseen circumstances, then Prayer is probably the only way out. Do not condemn the child. Just Pray, Pray & Pray....
Our body is like a temple & we must keep it pure and holy. Unatural acts of sex in the bible is considered as perversion. To clarify, read about sodom & gomorreah (hope i spelled it correctly)
Sex in the bible is considered sacred between a man & woman (husband & wife). So, YES! Homosexuality is a sin. -
If your toddler falls into the mud, though he is all dirty, you still love him. But you love him so much that you'd immediately want to give him a good clean-up... give him a good shower and change him into clean set of clothes. That's how God is with us. He loves us just the way we are, incl. gay & lesbians, but that doesn't mean He approve of us remaining in the filthy state we are...Originally posted by babyys:As a parent, it is our resposibility on the upbringing of the child. The christian foundation must be laid from day 1. Educate the child & you not have to face this problem.
However, if due to unforseen circumstances, then Prayer is probably the only way out. Do not condemn the child. Just Pray, Pray & Pray....
Our body is like a temple & we must keep it pure and holy. Unatural acts of sex in the bible is considered as perversion. To clarify, read about sodom & gomorreah (hope i spelled it correctly)
Sex in the bible is considered sacred between a man & woman (husband & wife). So, YES! Homosexuality is a sin.
Conclusion:
In regards to homosexual act, God says "Yuck! Eew! Disgusting! "
But to the gay & lesbian, God says "Well, even though you're all filthy with black, slimy mud and cow dung, let me wash you in the blood of My Son Jesus Christ. It removes all traces of sin and make you a brand new person. Then you'll really know what it is to be free... free from homosexual urges and live in the purpose of MY will for your life." -
i wonder what u mean by raising him up properly. do u mean u'll teach him to live in denial of what he is, or to pretend he is someone else when he is not? Are u going to teach him its more important to remain unhappy and unfulfilled the rest of his life just because he has to fit into the mould of what his parents think he should be, what they want him to be, and what they think he should be?Originally posted by NT2:if i raise him or her up properly....i wont even have to face this problem.
If yes to any of the above, please never have a kid. U'd just create one more totally brain-farked individual who ends up either being a bigot, or needing psychological treatment due to mental oppression from parents when he's older.
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I agree that nowhere was it ever stated that Jesus ever stated that homosexuality is a sin.Originally posted by shade343:Yeah. I have read the bibles many time. No where did I find a phrase that suggested Jesus was against homosexuality.
This brings me to another question: DO you really understand the word oor the stories of the bible?
but i wouldn't say its not a sin in Christianity because religion is human created and defined, its not absolute. Long have I said that Christianity is not an absolute representation of the will of God himself, but a human interpretation of it. So according to the humans who make up the religion, it is a sin. But according to what Jesus said, its not.
Who u believe is up to u i guess.
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easy to say. when it really happens you will think otherwise.Originally posted by shade343:Whats wrong with having a gay child? Its his choice. -
And i say AMEN!!! to datOriginally posted by purplecrazed:If your toddler falls into the mud, though he is all dirty, you still love him. But you love him so much that you'd immediately want to give him a good clean-up... give him a good shower and change him into clean set of clothes. That's how God is with us. He loves us just the way we are, incl. gay & lesbians, but that doesn't mean He approve of us remaining in the filthy state we are...
Conclusion:
In regards to homosexual act, God says "Yuck! Eew! Disgusting! "
But to the gay & lesbian, God says "Well, even though you're all filthy with black, slimy mud and cow dung, let me wash you in the blood of My Son Jesus Christ. It removes all traces of sin and make you a brand new person. Then you'll really know what it is to be free... free from homosexual urges and live in the purpose of MY will for your life." -
Sy has preached in my church a couple of times, very humorous and dynamic. Am really inspired by his preachings.Originally posted by purplecrazed:If homosexuality isn't a sin, the bible wouldn't use the word "indecent" and "perversion"..
People who experience homosexuality feelings and urges have deeper, unresolved issues that they may have gone through as a child, which affected them greatly in the area of their emotional and psychological well-being. I don't deny that they can't help feeling the way they do... in fact, I won't condemn a gay if I meet one... but I wouldn't want a gay friend to think that it's just natural for him to feel the way he does, so he'll just have to live with it for the rest of his life. That's a lie from Satan! Poison is still poison even if I pour it into a beautiful bottle and label it "pure orange juice"
The conclusion is: homosexuality was never in God's idea in the first place. It's something that is contrary to His perfect will. And somehow, I've never heard of animals who are homosexuals. This seem to only plague the human race.. due to the fall of man, i.e. SIN.
The ongoing debate of whether homosexuality is wrong is simply pointless. The question is whether gay and lesbians know that there's healing and deliverance in Jesus Christ? And I'm not talking abt deliverance as in excorcism.. but counseling...
There was a pastor called Sinclair Rogers who was once a gay himself and almost went for a sex change operation but his life was dramatically transformed when he knew Jesus Christ. You can read more about him in http://www.syrogers.com/ -
Originally posted by purplecrazed:
1stly I believe OT is no longer vaild with the coming of Christ as the messiah. Unless u're actually Jew of course.
Tsk, tsk... I pity you... you read the bible many times but never read Old Testament izzit?
[b]LEVITICUS 20:13 (NIV) - IF A MAN LIES WITH A MAN AS ONE LIES WITH A WOMAN, BOTH OF THEM HAVE DONE WHAT IS DETESTABLE. THEY MUST BE PUT TO DEATH...
Romans 1:27 (NIV) - In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and receievd in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
[/b]
2ndly, all thats said in Romans is said by Paul, not Jesus. So shade343 never say wrongly when he said Jesus never condemned homosexuality as a sin. -
It depends on what sort of parents. The sort who understand that its not an unnatural thing and not a sin won't kick up a big fuss.Originally posted by dragg:easy to say. when it really happens you will think otherwise.
I remember a gay friend of mine in UK, his mother couldn't accept it and went to a psychology workshop hoping to learn how to turn him "straight" again(In my opinion, turning someone "straight" again is merely just forcing him/her to go into denial of him/herself. It does not change the fact that he/she is gay)
Anways she learnt more about homosexuality at the workshop, finally realised that it was natural and not "wrong" or a "sin". She became happier when she realised her son was not "abnormal" and could finally accept him for who he is, not who she want him to be.
Unfortunately, this sort of happy ending is not common amongst gay people and their parents because of the sort of disinformation that it is "wrong" or a "sin" (such as can be found here) going around poisoning people's minds. -
1stly, Yes, the NT is the fulfilment of the OT through Jesus Christ because all the rules and regulations outlined in the Jewish Law was God's way of showing us that man and God could never come together just like that because God is holy while man is a wretched sinner who always needed to be made clean through sacrificial blood of animals and through observance of many purification rites, incl. not eating unclean meat.Originally posted by HENG@:1stly I believe OT is no longer vaild with the coming of Christ as the messiah. Unless u're actually Jew of course.
2ndly, all thats said in Romans is said by Paul, not Jesus. So shade343 never say wrongly when he said Jesus never condemned homosexuality as a sin.
The purpose of the OT is to show that man can only come near to God on God's terms, not on man's terms. It is the King who determines how you should approach him, thus the protocols and formalities. There's no way you can simply enter a Prime Minister's or a King's chamber just like that unless he is your dad!
You must know that the OT with all its rules and regulations was not without God's good intention and purposes for His people. But above all, the OT was a foreshadow of the coming Messiah. In other words, you can say that the OT was the prophecy, while the NT the fulfilment. As Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-20: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everythying is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven..."
As much as we no longer subject ourselves to OT laws like circumcision, or this cannot touch, that cannot do; this can eat, that cannot eat; this can wear, that cannot wear (no cross-dressing), can have sex with this person, but not with that person, etc. with all that countless rules and regulations, that doesn't mean that we can lead a life that runs contrary to God's moral law. All that God has created is given to us for us to enjoy, incl. sex but it must be with an understanding of His ORIGINAL purpose & intention, i.e. the marriage covenant between a man and a woman. You can abuse it and use it for your own homosexual orientation but it will not be one without consequences and damage to your personal well-being.
2ndly, 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" Moses talked with God face to face (Numbers 12:6-8 ) and he wrote most of the OT, while the Apostle Paul himself was brought up in very strict Jewish ways and he was a very well-trained Pharisee. Read what he said in Galatians 1:14 - I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers." In other words, Paul probably could recite the whole OT word for word and put many other Pharisees to shame. He was such an expert in the Law and so highly trained that no one during his time possessed such keenness of mind like he did. So mind you, the Apostle Paul was a very brilliant man, equivalent to today's Ph.d or doctorate. In various passages of the NT, he did say that he could take pride and boasts about his background but because ever since he had a personal encounter with Jesus, he was humbled and he walked very closely to the Lord. That's why Christians revere the teachings of the Apostle Paul because his life was one that reflected a man so in tune with God. We believe what he says and teaches is in line with God's purpose and will for us, i.e. no homosexuality in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Well, since you don't take what Paul says as God-breathed and God-inspired, you might as well just keep the very words of Jesus' written in red in the book of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and burn the rest of your bible. -
We left hormones out in this topic.
How to be non bias in this discussion? -
Anyway, i'm interested to see Socialoutcast's display of theology in this topic.
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Denial of who he is? Well, if he has great talents, abilities and interest in being a road sweeper, toilet cleaner or garbage collector, I wouldn't mind. I'd say, "Son, just make sure you do an extremely good job and don't slack in your work, 'kay?! Yeah, you can go out there sweeping away & picking up every dirt and garbage or make sure every toilet bowl is so clean that it sparkle and shine but do disinfect yourself after a day's work." Honestly, I'd want my child to live an upright life, walking in the ways of God no matter what his aspirations are. If he wants to be a drag queen and he's good at it, I think it's ok as long as his sexual orientation is not homo.Originally posted by HENG@:i wonder what u mean by raising him up properly. do u mean u'll teach him to live in denial of what he is, or to pretend he is someone else when he is not? Are u going to teach him its more important to remain unhappy and unfulfilled the rest of his life just because he has to fit into the mould of what his parents think he should be, what they want him to be, and what they think he should be?
If yes to any of the above, please never have a kid. U'd just create one more totally brain-farked individual who ends up either being a bigot, or needing psychological treatment due to mental oppression from parents when he's older.
Honestly, most gays are guys whose father was absent in most part of their lives or they failed to receive approval and love from their dad. Some guys grew up with hardly any physical contact with their dad because dads were too busy with work or even ministry. They became so used to mummy's hug and kisses and mummy's touch or had so much play time with their sisters that as they hit puberty age, when another male touch or stroke them, they'd get aroused because they never felt what it was like to have male bonding with dad. -
Well, since you don't take what Paul says as God-breathed and God-inspired, you might as well just keep the very words of Jesus' written in red in the book of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and burn the rest of your bible.[/b]
Erm .. you conveniently forget your bible history.
When 2 Timothy was written .. the NT wasn't "Scripture" yet. Only the Septuagint was Scripture. -
If I'm not wrong, Paul was making a case for the OT scripture (or Septuagint) which was considered inspired to be used by the early Christians especially since Paul referenced OT prophecies and Genesis in his writings.Originally posted by Icemoon:Erm .. you conveniently forget your bible history.
When 2 Timothy was written .. the NT wasn't "Scripture" yet. Only the Septuagint was Scripture. -
honestly, thats nonsense.Originally posted by purplecrazed:Denial of who he is? Well, if he has great talents, abilities and interest in being a road sweeper, toilet cleaner or garbage collector, I wouldn't mind. I'd say, "Son, just make sure you do an extremely good job and don't slack in your work, 'kay?! Yeah, you can go out there sweeping away & picking up every dirt and garbage or make sure every toilet bowl is so clean that it sparkle and shine but do disinfect yourself after a day's work." Honestly, I'd want my child to live an upright life, walking in the ways of God no matter what his aspirations are. If he wants to be a drag queen and he's good at it, I think it's ok as long as his sexual orientation is not homo.
Honestly, most gays are guys whose father was absent in most part of their lives or they failed to receive approval and love from their dad. Some guys grew up with hardly any physical contact with their dad because dads were too busy with work or even ministry. They became so used to mummy's hug and kisses and mummy's touch or had so much play time with their sisters that as they hit puberty age, when another male touch or stroke them, they'd get aroused because they never felt what it was like to have male bonding with dad.
ouch ouch and ouch. I laughed so hard my stomach hurts. ARE u still misguided into thinking that freud's theories are all right? More and more gays are finding it easier to come out now, and guess what? They're not from families where the father is missing. In the past this illusion appeared to be true because it was probably easier for gay people with only a female parent to come out to his/her mother. Mothers tend to be able to accept their child better for who they are. But now, more and more people are coming out, and their families aren't missing a father. All that nonsense about not having dad's touch? Thats nonsense. Homosexuality is decided by genes and hormones. WHETHER one stays in denial or comes out, is decided by upbringing.
Finally I will point out that homosexual people can be as upright as any of us and maybe even more so, because they see beyond judging people by their gender and sexuality. They certainly aren't harbouring "holier than thou" attitudes, whether they're christians or not. -
by the way. are u saying if he is gay, u will make his life miserable until he "turns straight" again?Originally posted by purplecrazed:If he wants to be a drag queen and he's good at it, I think it's ok as long as his sexual orientation is not homo.
and if your child was born with the most important female organ of all - the female brain, even tho his physical gender is male, are u going to call him a gay for liking guys? Im surprise to see that u consider transgendered people gay because psychologically speaking, they are every bit the opposite sex of their physical genders. If you had a son who wanted to be a girl, but still liked girls, then I can tell you your son is lesbian! And then u can worry. If he wants to be a girl and likes guys, u can comfort yourself that at least he is a straight girl. -
yeah...i agree that its inborn, at least for those people whom i know. i know one guy who wanted to be girls since they were 6 years old, so its quite to believe that they were influenced by external factors right?
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heck i know of some friends who knew they were gay or that they wanted to be the opposite gender as early as 3. Definately inborn. But some people will just refuse to accept the facts even with obvious evidence staring them in the face.Originally posted by angelfairy:yeah...i agree that its inborn, at least for those people whom i know. i know one guy who wanted to be girls since they were 6 years old, so its quite to believe that they were influenced by external factors right? -
The Gospel according to shade343Originally posted by shade343:No. It never was. -
Tell him he has 1 in 25 chance of having HIV:
"ABOUT one in 25 gay men in Singapore is HIV-positive, said Dr Balaji Sadasivan yesterday. Researchers came to that conclusion based on the data gleaned from the anonymous human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) testing clinic at Kelantan Lane...."
(Straits Times 6 Dec) -
based on known open gays or based on total number of gays including all those in the closet and those in denial?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Tell him he has 1 in 25 chance of having HIV:
"ABOUT one in 25 gay men in Singapore is HIV-positive, said Dr Balaji Sadasivan yesterday. Researchers came to that conclusion based on the data gleaned from the anonymous human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) testing clinic at Kelantan Lane...."
(Straits Times 6 Dec)