ST Forum: Doc asked patient to pray
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some pple believe the bible hinted that spilling your seeds is wrong.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:the bible nv said contraceptive is wrong.
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What is prayer? a magic wand? Has the doctor, in his professional opinion, the right to conclude that the patient is as "good as dead"? So "instead of leaving him to die", he took out the magic wand to see if it works.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:we're talking about a doctor who felt that prayers would help the patient get better, and does it regardless of his embarrassment, for the good of the patient. he could just simply write the patient off as "good as dead" and leave him to die. the doctor wouldn't lose his job thats for sure, it wouldn't affect his income. but yet he does the most embarrassing thing on earth, just to hope for a miracle for the patient.
and what that non believing fella did? bite the hand that feeds him, for the lack of a better phrase.
and that example of ingratitude alone, is enough to make one think that
"if a christian is a thorn in the arse, a non christian is like this big branch being shoved up the arsehole"
to me anyway
I read so many remarks wanting to see if prayer works. What do you do when you pray? you ask God, plead to him or you tell him and see if He listens to you?
If Christians can command God to work through our prayers then Christians are greater God. 
We pray with patients to ASK God to provide strength in enduring the medical treatments, peace to rid of fear of the illness, we plead for his mercy in healing. And it is only God who decide if the patient would be healed, very often even christians are not healed from illness. The illness may disappear all of a sudden, or the patient suddenly responds well to medication and recovers, whatever the case, it is the healing hands of God. Only God knows what is best for the patient, and God works through different ways, not just miracles because of our prayer.
To me the problem of the doctor is his total insensitivity, something all singaporean should know when dealing with religious matters but unfortunately in their zeal to perform their religious duties, many christians ignore the need to be sensitive. If the patient left the clinic feeling that the doctor really showed care, love and patience, then the doctor has really brought the patient to God, and as a christian he performs his duty as a priest! Now the patient probably think that doctor just performed a christian ritual.
Want him to pay for our prayer, or show some kind of gratitude? Jesus taught us to pray and He never charged us, He gave us his life for free.
"All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people" Rom. 10:21. Has He not been patient with us even while we were sinners? Why are the non believers now a "big branch being shoved up the arsehole"?
If your parents were not converted yet and are stopping you from going to church every Sunday, are they also a "big branch being shoved up the arsehole"?
In practising our faith, if there is no love and understandings to those who are different from us, we are no priest of God, but a bunch of over zealous religious fanatics, like those who bomb themselves, thinking that they will go to heaven. -
Sure, tell the gahmen to set up more schools for us to make better choices.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Isn't evangelism the main mission of a mission school?There is always a choice and I'm getting sick and tired of listening to people making certain choices and not having the balls to walk away and instead trying to reform something that seems to offend them.
I'm not saying that aggressive evangelism is right, but at what point does giving information about religion to people become a crime?Let's not take the literals too literally and end up being worser off.
Do you realise what a big logistical problem there will be if all the non christians deicides they want to go to non christian schools? At our time, there were 14 JCs for example, three which are missionary. That amount to nearly 6000 vacancies. Can you imagine the crunch MOE will face logistically and the students will have in their choices, if they decide to go to school based on the secularism, or non of it, in their school of choices?
When i chose ACJC, my first and foremost thought go to its quality of teaching, entry level, culture and so on. Academic teachings should be given priority over spirituality. If they choose not to play along this line, they can set up exclusive schools like the Muslim madrasahs. Dont toggle between the two. Its like wantting to have the cake and eat it too.
Information abt religion? Sheesh, have you ever been in places like ACJC, CJC or SAJC where christians and non christians are made to sit down, listen to preachers and sing along? -
Interesting you mentioned you chose ACJC because of the culture, it is exactly the christian culture that made the mission schools what they are today. Mission schools in early days used to be much better than the government schools. Christians believe that chrisitans morale and culture should be part of the education, that is the reason why churches built and run schools with their own money. Without the christians education, these mission schools are not mission schools anymore. If you believe in the total education as christians define it, come and study. If not, choose the non mission schools! You can't have the cake and eat it.Originally posted by laurence82:Sure, tell the gahmen to set up more schools for us to make better choices.
Do you realise what a big logistical problem there will be if all the non christians deicides they want to go to non christian schools? At our time, there were 14 JCs for example, three which are missionary. That amount to nearly 6000 vacancies. Can you imagine the crunch MOE will face logistically and the students will have in their choices, if they decide to go to school based on the secularism, or non of it, in their school of choices?
When i chose ACJC, my first and foremost thought go to its quality of teaching, entry level, culture and so on. Academic teachings should be given priority over spirituality. If they choose not to play along this line, they can set up exclusive schools like the Muslim madrasahs. Dont toggle between the two. Its like wantting to have the cake and eat it too.
Information abt religion? Sheesh, have you ever been in places like ACJC, CJC or SAJC where christians and non christians are made to sit down, listen to preachers and sing along?
dont understand what is the logistic problem you mentioned, the government have enough money to build as many JC as they want, mission schools are not there for those who cannot get into government schools.
Just note that exclusive schools like the madrasahs, or the Bible College will not take in non believers, so you have no chance of learning anything about the religion.
Did you learn anything by listening to the preachers? did you enjoy the sing along? did you have a better understanding of christianity now? or you consider these activities waste of time because they did not count in your final A level results? -
i think this is what cm was talking abt the other day
Parents, principals against evangelising in schools
AT LEAST three teachers have been hauled up at St Joseph's Institution (SJI) in the past 10 years - and each reprimanded for evangelising their students.
The three teachers - all women in their 30s and 40s - were ordered to stop inviting their students to church events and camps.
The school said it had been receiving complaints about their activities from other teachers, parents and students.
After the warning, all three stopped doing it.
But their cases underscore the importance of an issue recently thrown into the spotlight: What kind of latitude should teachers be given when discussing religion with their students?
A letter to The Straits Times Forum page last Saturday told the story of a Primary 6 pupil who was urged to attend a church service by her teacher. When the 12-year-old said her Buddhist parents would not allow it, she was apparently told that it was not up to them to decide.
Naturally, it left her parents fuming.
The pupil's mother, housewife Shirley Ng, 40, said: 'It is not within the teacher's role to persuade my daughter to go to church. How could he tell her that it was not up to us to decide? And that she was free to make up her own mind? She is only 12 and still under my charge.'
The letter has sparked a flurry of other letters to the ST Forum page - some complaining of similar instances, others simply eager to air their views on the issue.
The Ministry of Education (MOE) said in a response published yesterday that it was opposed to teachers converting those in their charge.
'Our schools are secular, and teachers should not be engaged in proselytising their students,' it said.
The episode has touched a nerve among parents, schools, teachers and religious organisations. Most share the MOE's view.
Religious organisations such as the Singapore Islamic Scholars and Religious Teachers Association (Pergas), the Catholic Church and the National Council of Churches in Singapore unani- mously rejected proselytising in school.
While all the 33 schools polled by The Sunday Times frowned on it, four said they had no objections if done informally outside school.
The four are Bedok North Secondary School, Anderson Junior College, Methodist Girls' School (Secondary) and CHIJ Secondary (Toa Payoh).
But they stressed that it is a 'yes' that comes with many qualifications.
Said Madam Chou Weng Ha, principal of Bedok North Secondary: 'If it helps delinquents and students' moral development, if it's done in the teacher's personal capacity outside the school context, if the teacher is sensitive to the student's family background and religion - then I don't have major objections.' Other schools do, however.
At the heart of their argument is the belief that a teacher's role is to teach, not preach.
Said Meridian Junior College principal Esther Lai: 'Whatever we do, we do it in a secular way, because we are a secular college and our students have different faiths. We are not here to propagate religion, we are here to teach.'
Brother Michael Broughton, deputy principal (student development) at St Joseph's Institution, agreed and added that the school had an obligation not to do it.
'The parents trust us. It's against the integrity of the children confided to your care to do something to them that might turn them against their parents' value system or culture.'
Many were also quick to point out that parents who send their children to schools that are partly funded by a religious organisation must expect some degree of religious influence. Methodist Girls' School (Secondary) for example, has all its students - Christian or non-Christian - attend the school's chapel services, but those who are not comfortable can bring it up with the principal.
Manjusri Secondary, a Buddhist school, has daily morning prayers and Vesak Day celebrations that are attended by all its students. The non-Buddhists at these events would watch and are not required to do what their Buddhist schoolmates do.
Other government-aided schools do not even go that far.
At St Joseph's Institution and Catholic Junior College (CJC), religious services are optional for non-Catholics and daily prayers are made as inclusive as possible.
At some events like National Day, the schools have prayers done by representatives of every religion. Last Wednesday, the morning prayer at CJC included a mention of its Muslim students who had started fasting.
In all the schools, the policy against proselytising is an unwritten rule. Apart from that, teachers are reminded verbally from time to time.
Still, some choose to defy it.
A 31-year-old English language teacher at a secondary school admitted to The Sunday Times that she has invited about 10 students to church events even though her principal had warned her against it. Half of them went and one converted to Christianity.
Another teacher in her thirties, who teaches science in a junior college, is more careful.
She would wait until her students have completed their studies and left the school before approaching them. Over eight years, she has invited about 10 former students to her church. Only three went.
Students say these incidents - though rare - have been going on for a long time.
National University of Singapore undergraduate Lin Jingyi, 19, remembers her primary school teacher inviting her classmates to church. Huang Peijun, 15, a Secondary 3 student at Peicai, also said her primary school teacher used to tell religious stories at the end of lessons.
While all this has parents worried, most are willing to give teachers a little leeway outside school.
Housewife Urimila Misir, 48, who has three children in Christian schools, said: 'It is all right for the teacher to ask the student to go to church, just to have a look. But the teacher shouldn't repeatedly ask them to go and get more involved in the religion.'
Taxi driver Cheng Ah Huat, 57, agreed: 'If it's outside of school, if the teacher is just informally socialising with the students, then it's okay for the teacher to talk to the students about his or her own religion. But not in the classroom.'
A spokesman from the Inter-Religious Organisation summed it up.
'The teachers have to draw the boundaries. When the student is still under their charge, there is an unequal relationship as the child looks up to them. They can't take advantage of that to spread their beliefs.
'In this situation, to proselytise is a real problem. As we are a secular state and a multi-religious society, we must create and respect the space for all religions.'
Additional reporting by Sarah Ng and Liaw Wy-Cin -
Yah .. so MOE replied that their schools are secular. Hope that answers Crazy Monkey's question.
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And other questions too. So what did CM ask?Originally posted by Icemoon:Yah .. so MOE replied that their schools are secular. Hope that answers Crazy Monkey's question. -
In this morning's Straits Times:
Talking about God in schools, hospitals
The nurse could not stop talking about her faith, even as she was inserting a needle into her elderly patient's arm.
A routine blood test at Tan Tock Seng Hospital turned out ot be a lesson in evangelical Christianity for Associate Professor Wong Weng Fai, 41, a computer science lecturer, and his 66-year-old mother, a dementai sufferer.
According to Prof Wong, a National University of Singapore lecturer, in the testing room, they were greeted by two nurses listening to Christian worship songs on a CD player. As one of them drew blood from his mother, she began evangelising.
He recounted: "She asked my mother in Cantonese, 'Auntie, do you believe in Jesus?'
"My mum was saying, 'No, no, I'm Buddhist.' But the nurse continued, 'You should go to church because it'll be good for you.'"
Prof Wong felt offended. "They're preyingon the weaknesses of old folks, especially when they are sick and down."
A TTSH spokesman said the hospital is unaware of the incident and that it "regularly reminds our doctors and care providers that proselytisation is not allowed".
The issue of promoting one's faith in public institutions has been in the news lately with letters in the Forum page touching on the subject.
How sidespread is the practice? should government doctors, teachers and bosses who are in positions of authority and trust be allowed to preach to their charges?
The official answer is no. But in practice, the issues are not so clear-cut, as Insight finds out.
I don't think this is uncommon? I've had relatives telling me of similar experiences in hospitals, why do they keep doing this? And the culprits are *usually* Christians... -
I wonder why Uncle Fai's mum never say "you come to dharma centre then I go to church"Originally posted by pie:"My mum was saying, 'No, no, I'm Buddhist.' But the nurse continued, 'You should go to church because it'll be good for you.'"
And the nurse will say "no thanks". -
doctor shud refer patient to better specialist. Better to give patient hope when there may be none.
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as long as christian dun abandon tis practice of recruiting ppl even thru pestering them, ppl will not join. the more u force, the more ppl resist. u ned ppl to join out of FREE WILL, not by pestering ppl. rmbr bruce almighty?
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Originally posted by pie:
why these nurse like tat one ? dun respect other ppl religion
In this morning's Straits Times:
[b]Talking about God in schools, hospitals
The nurse could not stop talking about her faith, even as she was inserting a needle into her elderly patient's arm.
A routine blood test at Tan Tock Seng Hospital turned out ot be a lesson in evangelical Christianity for Associate Professor Wong Weng Fai, 41, a computer science lecturer, and his 66-year-old mother, a dementai sufferer.
According to Prof Wong, a National University of Singapore lecturer, in the testing room, they were greeted by two nurses listening to Christian worship songs on a CD player. As one of them drew blood from his mother, she began evangelising.
He recounted: "She asked my mother in Cantonese, 'Auntie, do you believe in Jesus?'
"My mum was saying, 'No, no, I'm Buddhist.' But the nurse continued, 'You should go to church because it'll be good for you.'"
Prof Wong felt offended. "They're preyingon the weaknesses of old folks, especially when they are sick and down."
A TTSH spokesman said the hospital is unaware of the incident and that it "regularly reminds our doctors and care providers that proselytisation is not allowed".
The issue of promoting one's faith in public institutions has been in the news lately with letters in the Forum page touching on the subject.
How sidespread is the practice? should government doctors, teachers and bosses who are in positions of authority and trust be allowed to preach to their charges?
The official answer is no. But in practice, the issues are not so clear-cut, as Insight finds out.
I don't think this is uncommon? I've had relatives telling me of similar experiences in hospitals, why do they keep doing this? And the culprits are *usually* Christians...[/b]
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Can play music in hospital public room one meh?Originally posted by crazy monkey:why these nurse like tat one ? dun respect other ppl religion
So did the other patients complain? Since the nurses were doing it (playing the music at least) so blatantly. -
true..Originally posted by laurence82:
Faith healing is a pyscological process actually.
Rem that laughter is the best medicine? How to cure someone, if he lacks the will and desire to live?
However, it MUST be noted that faith healing works only for people who believe in it..
For Buddhist, prayers might not work.. But meditation will..
For atheist, you can always get help from counsellors or psychiatrists..
Like what someone had said earlier.. Before introducing a belief to someone else, it's important to check his belief system..
What the doctor did will potentially aggrevate the patient's sickness, especially he's a non-believer (and we can sense it clearly from his letter to the press).. -
they are nurse maybe the ppl not happen but didnt complain.Originally posted by Icemoon:Can play music in hospital public room one meh?
So did the other patients complain? Since the nurses were doing it (playing the music at least) so blatantly. -
Today's ST Forum
No proselytising allowed in schools
A RECENT Insight article ('Say aaah... men'; ST, Oct 15) discussed the issue of proselytising.
Any form of proselytising to students is strictly not allowed in our schools, including both government and mission schools. Schools will take action against any teacher found to have engaged in proselytising.
The article cited the case of a National Junior College physics lecturer who invited his class to a Christmas party and prayed over them, and who attached Christian sayings to his lecture notes. The principal has warned the lecturer and counselled him. The lecturer is remorseful about his actions.
If parents have any concerns regarding any action involving their children being encouraged to join a religion other than their own, I encourage them to approach the school.
Ms Geraldine Chay Mei Fong ('Not true that all schools are secular'; ST, Oct 14) pointed out that religious values are imparted in mission schools. She supported this practice, and felt that parents who want a secular education for their children should send them to government schools.
Mission schools follow clear rules. While they can conduct prayers, religious classes and chapel services or mass, these must be optional. They cannot compel any student to participate in any religious activity against the student's wish.
Students are allowed to withdraw from any such activity if they are uncomfortable with participating in it, or if requested by their parents.
Further, attendance at any such activity cannot be a condition for students to be admitted to the school. The time used for these activities must also be in addition to that required for the schools to cover the subjects in the regular Ministry of Education curriculum.
It is in school that children of different backgrounds build bonds and develop shared aspirations as Singaporeans. We encourage parents and schools to work together to ensure that we sustain the strong social cohesion that we have built so far.
Wong Siew Hoong Director of Schools Ministry of Education -
"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his b-rest and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Luke 18: 9-14