The "unwritten" truth about Christianity
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Originally posted by Icemoon:I repeat. The murderer never believed in Christ, never. The one who believed in Christ is no more a murderer, as much as Mark Lee wasn't a conman when he was finally married.
The point about the victim is moot. He might still land up in hell even if he wasn't the victim.
so is this the answer to what i ask abt intepretation just now?
let me ask one question, what if the victim is a faithful christian, like mother teresa, and lets now say she is murdered, instead of dying of old age.... -
naturally we hate the murderer to the core, even strangers of huang na also hated took to the core, no doubt, but this argument fails if we consider the scenario I just proposed.Originally posted by RaTtY81:every part of wat u type...
bottom line is human feelings should not be sole arbitrator of whether the person deserve heaven or hell, nor should it be used as the sole basis for fairness. -
i am more relieved if its the second statementOriginally posted by Icemoon:difficult question .. hmm .. i want to let it pass leh .. or ask happyharvest to help me ans can?
but the ans will not be your first statement. it is somewhere along the line of the second one ..
murder is a sin no matter whether its the christians who say so, or any other faiths, or any atheist... -
the main pt is not abt the victim, its abt the murderer.Originally posted by Icemoon:I repeat. The murderer never believed in Christ, never. The one who believed in Christ is no more a murderer, as much as Mark Lee wasn't a conman when he was finally married.
The point about the victim is moot. He might still land up in hell even if he wasn't the victim. -
fair to who? you not ans my qn yet.Originally posted by RaTtY81:ok in very simple terms...
a guy kill someone but goes to heaven. the murdered goes hell.
fair?
yes or no? -
Murder is a BIG sin. KNN .. no wonder I hate the Crusaders so much.Originally posted by laurence82:murder is a sin no matter whether its the christians who say so, or any other faiths, or any atheist... if you ask me whether they go heaven, I like to think NO. but then we can't judge and the whole issue is complex enuff. -
fair in the general sense, what the society view as ethical and moralOriginally posted by Icemoon:fair to who? you not ans my qn yet.
if sumone told me its in god's views, then i'll ask the question
"How you know, god told u?" -
u r still replying my qn with a qn...Originally posted by Icemoon:fair to who? you not ans my qn yet.
u jus ned to think n reply yes or no. -
of course we use christianity as a basis since this is a christian discussion right?Originally posted by laurence82:whats the reason for everyone not in in the first place?
if u tell me, let say for this time we use christianity as a basis, non believers and christians who are not up to the mark, then it sounds allright, in christian sense
otherwise, what are the other possible reason why they are not in?
to your question, the reason is sin, sin and more sins. sins and love are like ying and yang in the faith. you need love to see the sins, you need sins to see the love. without sins and love, there would be no crucification, no resurrection and ultimately no salvaton. -
it is fair.Originally posted by RaTtY81:u r still replying my qn with a qn...
u jus ned to think n reply yes or no.
the one who put down his butcher knife can become a buddha immediately. the one who was murdered maybe his karma super lousy.
this argument can pass?
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ok... hmm how come buddha is in the pic? u aso believe the existance of buddha? u believe the teaching of buddhism?Originally posted by Icemoon:it is fair.
the one who put down his butcher knife can become a buddha immediately. the one who was murdered maybe his karma super lousy.
this argument can pass? -
what murderer? the murderer is dead, caught up and punished by justice. the one who supposedly went heaven in your example is not a murderer.Originally posted by RaTtY81:the main pt is not abt the victim, its abt the murderer. -
of course buddha exists .. duhOriginally posted by RaTtY81:ok... hmm how come buddha is in the pic? u aso believe the existance of buddha? u believe the teaching of buddhism? -
good goodOriginally posted by Icemoon:of course we use christianity as a basis since this is a christian discussion right?
to your question, the reason is sin, sin and more sins. sins and love are like ying and yang in the faith. you need love to see the sins, you need sins to see the love. without sins and love, there would be no crucification, no resurrection and ultimately no salvaton.
thats give me more reasons not to be a christian
i can say this right, since this is a discussion on believers non believers too... -
i dont think soOriginally posted by Icemoon:it is fair.
the one who put down his butcher knife can become a buddha immediately. the one who was murdered maybe his karma super lousy.
this argument can pass?
u may want to ask the peeps in the buddhism forum
i tot u are knowleadgable in christian theology and doctrines, otherwise i wouldnt have ask u... -
well, some peeps *coughbreycough* says they can go to heaven and condemn non believers to hell wor.....Originally posted by Icemoon:Murder is a BIG sin. KNN .. no wonder I hate the Crusaders so much. if you ask me whether they go heaven, I like to think NO. but then we can't judge and the whole issue is complex enuff.
two differring views, who to believe? is this complex or simple? -
the two of you have this assumption that once a murderer, forever a murderer, in heaven or hell still the same.
I think there is an important issue hidden in the murderer and victim scenario which we not acknowledged - the problem of suffering. why did the victim, who is supposedly innocent and good (lau even quoted the example of Mother Theresa), get murdered?
Various faiths have tackled the problem in different ways. We shall no go into that, unless we start a new topic and get everyone to discuss, shade, eternal now, earthling, sis, the RCs, the xtians, all of us. -
ok la .. maybe really no such thing as "put down butcher knife and become buddha" kind of thing. but what about bad karma? maybe you were once a murderer in your past life, that's why in the present life you suffer the same fate as your victims in your past life.Originally posted by laurence82:i dont think so
u may want to ask the peeps in the buddhism forum -
salah, ur first line wasnt in line with my thinkingOriginally posted by Icemoon:the two of you have this assumption that once a murderer, forever a murderer, in heaven or hell still the same.
I think there is an important issue hidden in the murderer and victim scenario which we not acknowledged - the problem of suffering. why did the victim, who is supposedly innocent and good (lau even quoted the example of Mother Theresa), get murdered?
Various faiths have tackled the problem in different ways. We shall no go into that, unless we start a new topic and get everyone to discuss, shade, eternal now, earthling, sis, the RCs, the xtians, all of us.
rem i asked whether someone get reprieve because he believe in christ, or because he regretted and as well as repent, because christ told him murder is a sin?
thats the issue
i understand u want to emphasise the complexity of this whole murderer and victim issue, hopefully this also transmit a message to all christians, that we arent the peeps to judge someone else sins, so hopefully i dont get condemned to death everytime someone want to preach to me, its bad being cursed.... -
its that simple? i been hobnobbing with the buddhist peeps in the forum, i dont think its that simpleOriginally posted by Icemoon:ok la .. maybe really no such thing as "put down butcher knife and become buddha" kind of thing. but what about bad karma? maybe you were once a murderer in your past life, that's why in the present life you suffer the same fate as your victims in your past life.
i see u quoted einstein in ur siggy, coolz...relativity is also abt perspective.. -
let's just say everyone already has enuff sins to go to hell, including coughbreycough in the past.Originally posted by laurence82:well, some peeps *coughbreycough* says they can go to heaven and condemn non believers to hell wor.....
two differring views, who to believe? is this complex or simple?
Cant everyone see it? The issue is not about heaven or hell, but sins, sins and more sins. Christianity is very beautiful in this aspect .. it lets you see your sins, then it shows you the love and the grace, then finally you get to see the heaven. -
thats a pretty cool ideaOriginally posted by Icemoon:let's just say everyone already has enuff sins to go to hell, including coughbreycough in the past.
Cant everyone see it? The issue is not about heaven or hell, but sins, sins and more sins. Christianity is very beautiful in this aspect .. it lets you see your sins, then it shows you the love and the grace, then finally you get to see the heaven.
any christian with view to the contrary? -
opps .. my apologies.Originally posted by laurence82:salah, ur first line wasnt in line with my thinking
rem i asked whether someone get reprieve because he believe in christ, or because he regretted and as well as repent, because christ told him murder is a sin?
thats the issue
i understand u want to emphasise the complexity of this whole murderer and victim issue, hopefully this also transmit a message to all christians, that we arent the peeps to judge someone else sins, so hopefully i dont get condemned to death everytime someone want to preach to me, its bad being cursed....
My conviction is that someone gets reprieved 'cos he regretted and repented 'cos he finally saw the love and grace of God, and if God so loved the world how can he kill someone whom God also loved? (paiseh, this line of thought a bit rojak with my Jewish theology
) I don't quite agree that the reason was 'cos Christ told him murder is a sin.
sins, sins and more sins. lau, are you sinning everyday too? -
may i add in...
Actually the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) should answer the issue mentioned. The act of murder is not doubt evil and heinous. Certainly it's unforgivable to many.
If we view ourselves (everyone) as a child of God and look at how God is to us a parent, then we may get an idea why a murderer can be forgiven. In many cases, parents are most willing to forgive their children when they acknowledge their wrongdoings. Similiarly, if one truly repents before God, he will be forgiven.
The judgment of heaven and hell is directed to our rebellion against God. Sin, no matter thievery, lies, murder, betrayal or any other forms is still regarded a sin to Him. So if you have murdered, but in the end repented of your old ways and begin to walk in His ways.. then yes, you will go to heaven.. But if you call yourself a christian and wear a cross because it's cool and hip, then you've got it all wrong..
surely it's not fair to the family whose loved one was murdered.. but if one chooses to hold on to their grievances and not forgive.. Then this hate will also eat them up slowly.. no real act of punishment will ever be sufficient for them.. even if the murderer was torn up a million times, they will still not find justice.. justice in one sense comes with acceptance..
i think we are digressing from the first post? i think many christians approach preaching in many ways. it can't be simply be put into (only) the two categories mentioned. maybe some tortured souls like to be force-fed.. but i think they are the minority -
Oh my. . . . , 98 replies in this thread. How come replies generating so fast suddenly. *faint*